129 replies to this topic

[K O Z A K]

MrXanthios, on 04 October 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

Absolutely YES, one of the few good ideas out here about balance.

NO

[MrXanthios]

Appogee, on 04 October 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

It's entirely possible to balance things that are different.

Yes, because having one orange and one apple of the same weight is the same thing as balancing a game where there are 3 different weapon groups, in those 3 groups there are other subgroups, then we have 4 different mech classes, spread across 2 factions. In those 2 factions, the 4 mech classes and the mechs provided in each one are completely different in terms of shape, agility, firepower, role. And we have the engines, which are also different.
I see more posts than I can count about people wanting balance, but yet, when someone proposes to simplify thing, to at least reduce the difference between the two factions present in the game, everyone is like no, IS and clan are supposed to be different. Yes, they are, but maybe they are too different, and probably there will never be any balance between the two as long as we continue insisting on this point. Making the isXL able to lose one torso would be a start to simplify thing and really take a step towards balance. What I would do is to just remove all together the presence of lfe, convert all the lfe to xl engines. Another good idea I read here is the one presented by El Bandito, about giving isXL a bigger tonnage discount, and I would agree to that as long as it's not some pgi-style cheap ****, like 1-2 tons. that advantage must be massive in the range of 3-5 tons less than cXL.

[Daurock]

While I am in total agreement that the devs should be making attempts to balance out the baseline tech, (sans quirks) Making the ISXL engines copies of clan XL engines (and therefore, attempt to create situations where clan and IS build closer, or even identical builds) aren't going to be the best solution, IMO.

Instead, they should be tuning weapons with the assumption that the IS mech is generally going to carry fewer of them, along with fewer heatsinks, and other equipment. He's also going to have a lower top speed, due to generally running with an LFE engine.

Even now, without quirks, it's entirely possible to create a situation where IS mechs run slower, but twist and turn faster. That's simple, easy to understand, and something that could be tuned as-needed. Clanners should be as envious of IS agility as IS mechs are of a clan mech's running speed.

Turning to firepower, curently clans have and advantage, while IS mechs have an armor advantage. Since the devs have spoken about wanting to change that dynamic so that they can add more quirks to clan mechs, and/or reduce IS the more excessive IS quirks, that means that the clan firepower advantage has to come down when compared to IS tech. That means some number of IS tech/weapon boosts, or some clan weapon/tech nerfs. Could an engine change be in these cards? Possibly, but it's a very heavy handed change, with far reaching consequences. It'd be better to start with an IS Heatsink buff, then tune IS weapons so that they compete with a clan mech carrying 25% more of them. (For example the IS UAC-2 could easily do with a Fire-Rate buff, and heat lowering, to help it better compete with a clan mech carrying 8 to the IS mech's 6.)

[Jackal Noble]

You mean like the 10% ballistic cooldown, +10% range and -20% jam chance the Jag-DD enjoys? Man I bet that 91 points of bonus structure certainly assists one when they put in an XL and hex AC2s.

Maybe the -5% ballistic cooldown the KGC-OOO, 79 points additional armor, 10% energy cd, 10% missile cd?

Surely, you must mean the -10% ballistic heat/ 15% crit chance receiving ANH-2A? Maybe the additional 95 points of armor helps that as well as the 10% energy heat.

[MechaBattler]

I would rather they retain the death penalty. But received buffs to compensate. Perhaps IS XLs impart torso twist speed buffs and increases side torso structure.

[Variant1]

how bout no?
IS xl engine already outperforms std engines, most comps use xl engine because its damn good weight savings for high alpha strike warrior and its speed, not to mention most ct hitboxes are super easy to core out due to size. Making isxl engines survive torso loss basicaly makes lfe engines completely pointless.

[Daurock]

Jackal Noble, on 04 October 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

You mean like the 10% ballistic cooldown, +10% range and -20% jam chance the Jag-DD enjoys? Man I bet that 91 points of bonus structure certainly assists one when they put in an XL and hex AC2s.

Maybe the -5% ballistic cooldown the KGC-OOO, 79 points additional armor, 10% energy cd, 10% missile cd?

Surely, you must mean the -10% ballistic heat/ 15% crit chance receiving ANH-2A? Maybe the additional 95 points of armor helps that as well as the 10% energy heat.

Those types of weapon quirks are the kind of stuff that'd be better if it was baked into baseline for an IS tech IMO, yes.

An offensively minded, assault-slow IS mech, such as the Jager, when coupled with an XL engine should be capable of putting a metric !@#$-ton of damage downrange, (as in - higher than nearly any clan mech of similar tonnage) with the downside that it'd be squishy with that XL engine. A more conservative jager build, that sacrificed an AC for an LFE could/should be a closer approximation of a 65 ton clan mech's firepower. If that becomes over-powered, that's when you start removing some of those quirks, and/or adding some quirks to competing clan mechs.

Even those relatively large weapon quirks are possibly on the low end of what they probably need to get their firepower up to snuff without quirks. Those IS quirks, especially the armor, right now is the only thing keeping them competetive, and the devs have noted that they don't like that particular plan very much, as it hamstrings them from quirking clan mechs in any significant fashion, and/or creates IS mechs that have ridiculous quirk levels, yet are still awful.

If you're going to move towards a situation where IS and clan mechs have more even quirks, then a better balance for baseline tech is where that balance has to come from. Their end-game is to create a state where some/many IS mechs can compete with clan mechs WITHOUT a huge list of quirks. I honestly think that their larger goal is to start having a situation where you can ADD quirks to clan mechs, to help differentiate all those omni-mechs a little more, but to do that, baseline tech has to get a little closer still.

I suppose i comes down to - do we try to get IS mechs to ape clan builds, by expecting them to mostly use XL engines, or do we keep a little more variety by taking the hard road, and even out the power of the weaponry so that an is mech doesn't HAVE to take an XL engine, and/or rely on heavy quirks to match clan firepower. Considering that we're actually not as far away from that situation as some may think, i'd prefer touching the weapons instead of the IS engines, which already have a decent reason to use each of them (though i might argue that the STD. engine may need a bit of love.)

[VonBruinwald]

Daurock, on 04 October 2018 - 08:59 AM, said:

they should be tuning weapons with the assumption that the IS mech is generally going to carry fewer of them, along with fewer heatsinks, and other equipment. He's also going to have a lower top speed, due to generally running with an LFE engine.

Even now, without quirks, it's entirely possible to create a situation where IS mechs run slower, but twist and turn faster. That's simple, easy to understand, and something that could be tuned as-needed. Clanners should be as envious of IS agility as IS mechs are of a clan mech's running speed.

Clanners already cry foul of the Timber having inferior agility to IS mechs. They'll most certainly cry foul if IS weapons were buffed on account of them being carried in fewer numbers (because inevitably they'd need higher baseline stats to be competitive).

Really we need to re-establish the baseline for balance and remember the TT stats come from a turn-based game and acknowledge they're Damage/Heat per 10 seconds not raw stats for alpha strikes.

Take the Gauss Rifle as a basic example:

Both have identical stats except the Clan version weighs 3 ton and uses 1 slot less.

So rather than give them both the same raw damage you give the IS an Alpha of 15 and 10 second cool-down, and the clan version 12 damage, 8 second cool-down. Same DPS/HPS only now the IS version has a higher upfront alpha to compensate for the increase in tonnage/crits which will naturally help offsets the ability for clans to boat a higher weapon count.

And now for something more complicated; ERLL.

Same concept, more weight/slots = higher alpha (IS vs. Clan)

Damage 10/8
Heat 15/9.5
Cooldown 12.5/8
Burn 1.67/2.0

Again the advantage lies with the IS for poking/alpha but the stats still give DPS/HPS in favour of the clans inline with TT, only now the increase in range is working against the clans on burn time. Damn that heat though! I never said TT was balanced.

The fun thing is this plays into lore with the IS being dirty fighters and using ambushes on the battlefield (a traditonally high alpha/low DPS affair) vs. the clans more honurable duelling where DPS is more valued. An ingame quality reflected in QP vs. Solaris builds. Add in Clan XL's and they'll be the natural favour for brawling provide you're able to avoid the IS alphas and don't get caught off guard.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 04 October 2018 - 02:03 PM, said:

-snip-
...you give the IS an Alpha of 15 and 10 second cool-down, and the clan version 12 damage, 8 second cool-down.
-snip-
Cooldown 12.5/8
-snip-

Cooldowns that high are not viable or enjoyable to use. And seriously, you're making a weapon fire SLOWER than TT rates?

[Khobai]

Appogee, on 04 October 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

It's entirely possible to balance things that are different.

really? because when has PGI ever demonstrated the ability to balance things that are different? not once? in how many years? 4+ years? lol...

yeah im sorry but that has obviously never worked. and continuing to do the same thing that doesnt work over and over is tantamount to stupidity. so lets not do that anymore.

its time to balance the game in a way thats so simple that even PGI can handle it. Balance all the tech base fundamentals and go from there. Starting with ISXL surviving side torso blowout.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

So, what is your boogeymech with an isXL that would scare ya if it had the ability to survive ST? Certainly do not see them in Competition play unless it is forced.

LFE, due to its durability has made isXL practically obsolete, even if it means a SLOWER mech and/or less equipment...And IS Omnimechs do not come with LFE in this timeline that I am aware of (got tired looking). And poor, new players who have to use Trial IS mechs... Mechs no longer benefit from increased acceleration after the great engine desync.

And what I suggested on the penalties is just that, but again, which mech or mechs are the boogeyman everyone appears to be afraid of? It is easy to say no because PGI for the most part ignores it, so why even bother?

And quirks come and go at the drop of a pair of panties. I want more speed without having to sacrifice components when an isXL can be utilize instead of running slower, feeling more like a slow moving turret.

And again, why bother? Where would the survivability of a destroyed ST for an isXL benefit the game the most? And bringing balance does not mean being everything has to be the same, only similar with both benefits and risks. CXL/LFE surviving vs isXL destruction is not on the same risk level. Same risk level is cockpit, both legs and CT.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

really? because when has PGI ever demonstrated the ability to balance things that are different? not once? in how many years? 4+ years? lol...

yeah im sorry but that has obviously never worked. and continuing to do the same thing that doesnt work over and over is tantamount to stupidity. so lets not do that anymore.

its time to balance the game in a way thats so simple that even PGI can handle it. Starting with ISXL surviving side torso blowout. Balance all the tech base fundamentals and go from there.

Once upon a time the Clan LPL and IS LPL were pretty well balanced against each other, with both having a place and neither obsoleting the other. They "can" do it, they just don't seem to have any level of caring to do so.

Edited by FupDup, 04 October 2018 - 02:27 PM.

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 04 October 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

Once upon a time the Clan LPL and IS LPL were pretty well balanced against each other, with both having a place and neither obsoleting the other.

but theyre not now. which only proves my point. sooner or later PGI will screw something up. they always do.

if you make them the same, PGI has no reason to ever touch them. and theyll be balanced precisely because theyre the same.

you may not like it, but you know im right, its the only way this game will ever be balanced. Because PGI cant handle balancing a complex system. The system needs to be simplified.

a dumbed down game thats balanced is better than a more complex game thats not balanced. the asymmetrical balance idea was cute but its failed miserably. its time to move on.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2018 - 02:35 PM.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 04 October 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Cooldowns that high are not viable or enjoyable to use. And seriously, you're making a weapon fire SLOWER than TT rates?

Nice badger.

You could always halve the heat/damage and double the cooldown to keep the same effect. I was trying not to diverge from the TT stats too much to get the point across. I'm pretty sure you understood what I was trying to get at. One of the reasons Laser vomit is so prevalent and unbalancing is because someone decided the Heat/Damage in TT was for when a weapon fires rather than over the period of one turn.

[BrunoSSace]

This would never happen. CLAN players don't want it and IS players do want it.
Id love my atlas running a xl 400. But its never going to happen.

[K O Z A K]

FupDup, on 04 October 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

Once upon a time the Clan LPL and IS LPL were pretty well balanced against each other, with both having a place and neither obsoleting the other. They "can" do it, they just don't seem to have any level of caring to do so.

Remember the days of the ISXL 5 LPL Battlemaster 2C? Was probably my 2nd fav mech after the vomit timber, it was so much fun, had the weak XL torsos, but solid quirks, great arm shields and so much agility, you could arm shield like a boss, excellent mid to close range LPLs, but then PGI carpet bombed every single thing that made it good

[Jay Leon Hart]

*deep breath*

Change the current dynamic from;
IS XL = ST death
Clan XL = ST penalty
Instead to;
BattleMech XL = ST death
OmniMech XL = ST penalty

Pros;
- IS OmniMechs are more viable
- OmniMechs have another advantage over BattleMechs
- No LFE changes required
- XL/LFE/STD is still a choice
- Lowers power creep

Cons;
- Clan BattleMechs get a power reduction
- [Other]

*exhale*

[FupDup]

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 October 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

Cons;
- Clan BattleMechs get a power reduction
*exhale*

If by "power reduction" you mean outright extermination, then yes. This would be especially true for the ones in the medium to heavy range where they're too big to be IS XL safe but too small to properly use a STD engine. The Hunch IIC-A could survive by boating low-tonnage lasers but that's about it. IS assaults only get away with STD engines because they've got the stronk Heavy Gauss Rifle and quirks to prop themselves up on.

[Khobai]

BrunoSSace, on 04 October 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

This would never happen. CLAN players don't want it and IS players do want it.
Id love my atlas running a xl 400. But its never going to happen.

of course clan players dont want it. they enjoy their mechs being unbalanced and superior to IS mechs.

and you say IS players dont want it but I dont believe thats true at all. plenty of IS players would like their atlas to be able to run an XL engine and not suck.

Jay Leon Hart, on 04 October 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

BattleMech XL = ST death
OmniMech XL = ST penalty

then why would you ever play a clan battlemech? there would be no point. even the crappy direwolf would be better than a kodiak or madcat mk2 with a STD engine.

its easier just to make ISXL survive side torso blowout. because then you arnt nerfing the crap out of clans. youre just buffing IS upto the same level clans are already at.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2018 - 02:47 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

of course clan players dont want it. they enjoy their mechs being superior to IS mechs.

which clan mechs are superior to Annihilators? Fafnirs? Sleipnirs? Wolfhounds? Commandos? Bushwackers? Crabs? Assassins? K9s?

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

and you say IS players dont want it but I dont believe thats true at all.

I don't.

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

plenty of IS players would like their atlas to run an XL engine and not suck.

I want a weapon that does 100 pinpoint damage with zero heat and shoot through allies.

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

then why would you ever play a clan battlemech? there would be no point.

Because it's fun?

Khobai, on 04 October 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

its easier just to make ISXL survive side torso blowout.

It's also boring as ****.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 04 October 2018 - 02:49 PM.