356 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

JediPanther, on 17 October 2018 - 05:42 AM, said:

Hire a skilled is xl light mech pilot to be your body guard who is very experienced at dueling pirs,achs,mlxgs,oxides,huggins,firestarters etc in solo q facing odds such as 2 to 1 and 3 to 1. My fees and services are on discount closer to the holidays.

Pirs are not that hard to kill. They have the same weaknesses all other lights do. I duel them all the time in my jenners and locusts until recently when my gaming rig finally died from power surge frying most of it.

Streaks work for those who can't aim. Big ac 10-20,heavy guass single or dual for those who can aim big guns. Single hgr will either outright kill or half a pir while killing any is xl light. Mpls and spls for those who can only aim for a few seconds.

I've had pirs try and run away from me in builds like the ssrm6x2 4ml x-5 mech or all streak cptls. Even srm 2s and 4s on Oxide can kill a pir pretty fast. The keys are situational awareness and using that target info display so the fishy gets shot where it does the most damage in the least amount of time. And if you can shoot one at optimal range before it closes distance it's not a worry.

I don't doubt that Piranhas are terrible at fighting other light mechs. They have a lot in common with assault mechs despite their differences

[Jack Dawes]

Mystere, on 15 October 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

Skill is OP therefore nerf the piranha?



So let's make all other light mechs as capable as or as close to the Piranha.

Or should we relegate another Mech in the least used class to the dustbin?


[/size]

So to the dustbin then?

LOL. Mystere, you are always good with a comic break. Tell me what you are so afraid of.

[Mystere]

Jack Dawes, on 17 October 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

LOL. Mystere, you are always good with a comic break. Tell me what you are so afraid of.

Usage of light Mechs dropping lower than they already are?

But I guess some fattie lovers just don't want their cannon fodder for stat padding able to fight back and kill them, right?

Edited by Mystere, 17 October 2018 - 09:53 AM.

[Mystere]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 17 October 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

Have thought about it.

[Jackal Noble]

Mystere, on 17 October 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

Usage of light Mechs dropping lower than they already are?

But I guess some fattie lovers just don't want their cannon fodder for stat padding able to fight back and kill them, right?

Ya know because an average of usually 2 lights versus an almost guaranteed 3-4 assault mechs on each given team. Clearly, lights are much more influential on a matches outcome.

Clearly.

[Dragonporn]

I take back anything I said earlier. MG PIR is still amazing, but taking into account latest patch, and the fact you literally cannot overheat anymore while you boat lasers in that thing, well, that might be much better choice at this point.

[Mcgral18]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

Like seriously INB4: "Have you actually piloted one? The piranha life is hard and they can be countered etc. etc."

Meanwhile, no other light mech in the game DEMANDS an answer like the Piranha does. No other light mech punishes you by killing your assault mechs if you don't chase the squirrel.

That didn't use to be the case


RIP most Lights

Especially Jenners

[Weeny Machine]

Mcgral18, on 17 October 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

That didn't use to be the case


RIP most Lights

Especially Jenners

True. The volumetric re-scaling killed many of the 35t mechs. Especially Jenner IICs are incredible fragile and once your arm is off, you lose 50% if your firepower. That is if your CT doesn't get cored at once anyway.

Too bad that PGI is so reluctant to throw the light mechs a bone.

Dragonporn, on 17 October 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

I take back anything I said earlier. MG PIR is still amazing, but taking into account latest patch, and the fact you literally cannot overheat anymore while you boat lasers in that thing, well, that might be much better choice at this point.

Jup. Before you could at least try to dodge as most as possible if the first two alphas and then had some time to do some damage. Now... pew, pew, pew and more pew, pew, pew

Jack Shayu Walker, on 14 October 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

Like seriously INB4: "Have you actually piloted one? The piranha life is hard and they can be countered etc. etc."

Meanwhile, no other light mech in the game DEMANDS an answer like the Piranha does. No other light mech punishes you by killing your assault mechs if you don't chase the squirrel.

You know, before direct and indirect nerfs hit the light mech class again and again many more light mechs were quite good at killing lone and unaware assaults (you see, even then 2 mistakes of the assault pilot were necessary).

Now there is a light mech which actually can hurt an assault again or kill it if the assault is dumb enough to park his fat bum not at a wall as soon as he hears a "ping, ping, pew".

Newsflash: every mech should be dangerous in this game. And outside of knee humping (which is entirely PGI's fault with their unreflected volumetric scaling) I cannot understand the tantrum some assault and heavies throw here. Oh, and btw, investing into crit reduction (survival tree) really helps against MGs. And if all fails...use streaks. The noob tube will help you

Edited by Bush Hopper, 18 October 2018 - 01:57 AM.

[McGoat]

FYI - 3 out of 5 drops in MRBC: BFM match last night EmP took a PIR2, the other two drops a 20T mech wasn't needed.

Leave the PIR1 alone

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 17 October 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

That didn't use to be the case

RIP most Lights

Especially Jenners

Yep. Back in the old days, light wolf packs were very much feared.

Bush Hopper, on 18 October 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Jup. Before you could at least try to dodge as most as possible if the first two alphas and then had some time to do some damage. Now... pew, pew, pew and more pew, pew, pew

My joystick is about to get a new firing solution macro. <maniacal >

My only worry is that I might need a new stick from overuse.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Bush Hopper, on 18 October 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

You know, before direct and indirect nerfs hit the light mech class again and again many more light mechs were quite good at killing lone and unaware assaults (you see, even then 2 mistakes of the assault pilot were necessary).

Not concerned with Piranha's ability to kill alone and unaware assaults. Concerned with its ability to strip and kill assaults that are in formation, during a brawl, in just seconds, because the assault mech did not prioritize dealing with the Piranha over dealing with the Annihilator.

Bush Hopper, on 18 October 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Newsflash: every mech should be dangerous in this game. And outside of knee humping (which is entirely PGI's fault with their unreflected volumetric scaling) I cannot understand the tantrum some assault and heavies throw here. Oh, and btw, investing into crit reduction (survival tree) really helps against MGs. And if all fails...use streaks. The noob tube will help you

Newsflash: this is obvious. But you should have to pay for your ability to maneuver and pick engagements by sacrificing some of your threat projection. The Piranha is more lethal than any of the pre-scaling meta lights ever were, and I stand by that those mechs were totally fine doing what they were doing, and that the Piranha is uniquely out of line.

[Weeny Machine]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 07:48 AM, said:

Not concerned with Piranha's ability to kill alone and unaware assaults. Concerned with its ability to strip and kill assaults that are in formation, during a brawl, in just seconds, because the assault mech did not prioritize dealing with the Piranha over dealing with the Annihilator.

So, your assault should be able to ignore the PIR or any light mech to fight an Anni? Is this your idea of balance? That was a rethoric question by the way.
Your mech wouldn't be able to ignore a medium or heavy or another assault. Why this is relevant? Simply because in a game which is all about destroying your opponent, every mech should be dangerous not only your heavies or assaults just because you achieved the feat of selecting a heavier mech in the mech bay.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 07:48 AM, said:

Newsflash: this is obvious. But you should have to pay for your ability to maneuver and pick engagements by sacrificing some of your threat projection. The Piranha is more lethal than any of the pre-scaling meta lights ever were, and I stand by that those mechs were totally fine doing what they were doing, and that the Piranha is uniquely out of line.

Why should it? The PIR, and all other lights at that, pay for the speed in much less armour, structure, heat dissipation, range disadvantage, lower alpha strike capability and so on.

I am sorry, but maybe you should play light mechs before you make such big claims (an no, you don't play light mechs)

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Bush Hopper, on 18 October 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

So, your assault should be able to ignore the PIR or any light mech to fight an Anni? Is this your idea of balance? That was a rethoric question by the way.
Your mech wouldn't be able to ignore a medium or heavy or another assault. Why this is relevant? Simply because in a game which is all about destroying your opponent, every mech should be dangerous not only your heavies or assaults just because you achieved the feat of selecting a heavier mech in the mech bay.

Whether intentionally or not, you are misconstruing what I said. My assault should be wise to worry more about an Ani than a light mech in the short term, putting the light in the back of its mind while it repositions. Yes, I do think this is fair and balanced. No, lighter mechs should not have equivalent kill times to assault mechs because assault mechs pay for those quick kill times by being sluggish, difficult to position, and by having little power to dictate their own engagements.

You complain about armor, but a small light mech's net-survivability is pretty decent in competent hands. You complain about, heat dissipation when heat dissipation doesn't affect the piranha what-so-ever. You complain about range as though decent sniper lights don't exist. And you complain about Alpha Strike despite the fact that the kill times remain comparable. Your nitpicking at details. When considered holistically, the Piranha's threat projection (its rate of damage output, its ability to place that damage, and its ability to survive to place that damage) is comparable to an Assault mechs without the Assault's vulnerability in positioning.

The winning strategy for CQC lights should be making passes, getting a couple of good shots off (30 damage or so), and making a good trade on their target before retreating and denying that target or his team the chance to retaliate. This is how previous meta-lights have operated (save for when an assault gets isolated, which as I said, I do not mind), and it's really quite fun, it's like playing a fighter jet, and I never felt as though I was getting the short end of the stick once I learned the technique behind it.

Bush Hopper, on 18 October 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

Why should it? The PIR, and all other lights at that, pay for the speed in much less armour, structure, heat dissipation, range disadvantage, lower alpha strike capability and so on.

I am sorry, but maybe you should play light mechs before you make such big claims (an no, you don't play light mechs)

So... tell me what I do and don't do? Aren't you a real piece of work, how respectful. Are you really that angry so as to put words in my mouth and make claims from ignorance that you can't back up?

I started out in this game playing lights and more recently before they nerfed the cSPL I used to play the Viper A LOT, which granted is 40 tons, but more or less had the same performance as a light. I've also logged some time with the MG-lynx before the Piranha showed up and that playstyle got way out of hand.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

You complain about armor, but a small light mech's net-survivability is pretty decent in competent hands.

In competent hands an assault will pretty much insta-gib a light - including the PIR-1

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

You complain about, heat dissipation when heat dissipation doesn't affect the piranha what-so-ever.

Check ...

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

You complain about range as though decent sniper lights don't exist.

Since this thread seems to revolve around the PIR-1 (and to a lesser extend its brethren PIR-2 and PIR-3 with their respective micro laser setups) the existance of sniper lights is kinda "irrelevant" - particularly with regards to the scenario that you yourself described.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

And you complain about Alpha Strike despite the fact that the kill times remain comparable.

My regular reference point for this is the Atlas on Tourmaline Desert in Testing Grounds. Even under the perfect conditions of the Testings Grounds with no movement, no spread because crosshair doesn't move a yota once the shooting starts it takes a 10-12 machine gun PIR-1 with 3 cHSML as backup

• about 8 seconds for a kill from behind through CT only
  
• about 2*9.5 (=19) seconds for a frontal kill by sawing off both legs.
  
• about 12 seconds for a frontal kill through the CT only

Now tell me how long does it take for your typical assault to kill a PIR-1 under the same conditions for all three of these killing methods?




Once we'e established those numbers we can try to argue how things change once movement of either mech comes into play.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

When considered holistically, the Piranha's threat projection (its rate of damage output, its ability to place that damage, and its ability to survive to place that damage) is comparable to an Assault mechs without the Assault's vulnerability in positioning.

But with the Light's vunerability to insta-death.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

The winning strategy for CQC lights should be making passes, getting a couple of good shots off (30 damage or so), and making a good trade on their target before retreating and denying that target or his team the chance to retaliate.

And who are you to lay down the rules on what should or should not happen in a game that revolves around making lots of damage and/or lots of kills in various versions of team death match?

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is how previous meta-lights have operated (save for when an assault gets isolated, which as I said, I do not mind), and it's really quite fun, it's like playing a fighter jet, and I never felt as though I was getting the short end of the stick once I learned the technique behind it.

Ah, so all Lights (meta or otherwise) should be the variation of one single combat strategy for success, while the heavier weight classes are allowed to have several? Sounds very boring

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 October 2018 - 04:19 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Yes, I do think CQC lights should be hit and run dive bombers. If you want other strats plenty of snipers and skirmishers do exist in the light weight class. Let's not try and cast me in the light of saying that I want ALL LIGHTS to be dive bombers.

Also, unless your intention is just to make me look stupid (which I recognize is a possibility) there's no point in talking about an Assault and a light standing still and staring at each other. We both know that's tantamount to suicide for the light mech.

How fast can you kill the testing range Atlas from the front with an Assault Mech?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 18 October 2018 - 03:33 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Also I stand corrected I'm also alright with clean-up crew lights like the MG-lynx. That mech is not capable of doing its job all by itself which makes its ability to quickly shred injured mechs to pieces much more reasonable.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 18 October 2018 - 03:35 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

Yes, I do think CQC lights should be hit and run dive bombers.

I was already aware of that from your previous comment. Just confirming that doesn't actually provide the answers to the questions that were directed at you there.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

If you want other strats plenty of snipers and skirmishers do exist in the light weight class.

But those are rarely considered "meta", aren't they?

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Let's not try and cast me in the light of saying that I want ALL LIGHTS to be dive bombers.

You yourself referenced all previous meta light mechs having been dive bombers. So I'm not painting you anything there ... you did that yourself.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Also, unless your intention is just to make me look stupid (which I recognize is a possibility) there's no point in talking about an Assault and a light standing still and staring at each other. We both know that's tantamount to suicide for the light mech.

I certainly didn't aim at making you look stupid but you yourself made this about how the PIR-1 fares against assault class mechs.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 18 October 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

How fast can you kill the testing range Atlas from the front with an Assault Mech?

Since you referenced an Annihilator before I took the liberty of using a unskilled ANH-2A with stock loadout:

• Kill through CT from behind: about 3 seconds (reload on those LBX plus a slight delay after the second LBX volley) [edit] after a closer inspection of the footage it's actually less than 3 seconds and pretty much close to the reload time of LBX.
  
• Kill through CT from front: less than 9 seconds

I spared myself the trouble to try the leg sawing because that comparision would only have been fair if the ANH had been skilled and upgraded like the PIR-1 that was used

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 October 2018 - 04:13 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

For posterity:

Most of the meta Lights have historically been skirmishers; those are your Medium Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, and Clan Small Pulse Laser boats like the Wolfhound, Firestarter, Jenner, Locust, pre-cSPL-nerf Arctic Cheetah/Jenner-IIC and present-day Piranha (2 and 3, with ER Micro assistance).

The Wolfhound, Arctic Cheetah, and Spider have all also been meta as sniper Lights at one point or another; the Spider specifically was a game-maker back in 2016 with ERLL and MGs; quirk nerfs on the MGs and introduction of E pods made the ACH replace it. Wolfhound is a pure sniper with no MGs.

Only one meta Light has ever been a dive-bomber and that was the Jenner IIC with 6x SRM6. The other meta CQC Lights like the SRM-toting Oxide and Small Pulse boat Firestarter A were more duelists than dive-bombers; too short-ranged to skirmish, but not punchy enough to dive-bomb.

The MG boats are sort-of dive bombers in competitive; the MLX-G was used in pairs to quickly overwhelm a flank and put the enemy permanently on the defensive. No idea how the PIR is used, there hasn't been an MRBC where it was valid until now and I haven't watched any matches yet.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 October 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

For posterity:

Most of the meta Lights have historically been skirmishers; those are your Medium Laser, Medium Pulse Laser, and Clan Small Pulse Laser boats like the Wolfhound, Firestarter, Jenner, Locust, pre-cSPL-nerf Arctic Cheetah/Jenner-IIC and present-day Piranha (2 and 3, with ER Micro assistance).

The Wolfhound, Arctic Cheetah, and Spider have all also been meta as sniper Lights at one point or another; the Spider specifically was a game-maker back in 2016 with ERLL and MGs; quirk nerfs on the MGs and introduction of E pods made the ACH replace it. Wolfhound is a pure sniper with no MGs.

Only one meta Light has ever been a dive-bomber and that was the Jenner IIC with 6x SRM6. The other meta CQC Lights like the SRM-toting Oxide and Small Pulse boat Firestarter A were more duelists than dive-bombers; too short-ranged to skirmish, but not punchy enough to dive-bomb.

The MG boats are sort-of dive bombers in competitive; the MLX-G was used in pairs to quickly overwhelm a flank and put the enemy permanently on the defensive. No idea how the PIR is used, there hasn't been an MRBC where it was valid until now and I haven't watched any matches yet.

Thank you.

Though I think most of what I was calling a dive bomber you consider to be a skirmisher.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 October 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I was already aware of that from your previous comment. Just confirming that doesn't actually provide the answers to the questions that were directed at you there.



But those are rarely considered "meta", aren't they?



You yourself referenced all previous meta light mechs having been dive bombers. So I'm not painting you anything there ... you did that yourself.



I certainly didn't aim at making you look stupid but you yourself made this about how the PIR-1 fares against assault class mechs.



Since you referenced an Annihilator before I took the liberty of using a unskilled ANH-2A with stock loadout:

• Kill through CT from behind: about 3 seconds (reload on those LBX plus a slight delay after the second LBX volley) [edit] after a closer inspection of the footage it's actually less than 3 seconds and pretty much close to the reload time of LBX.
  
• Kill through CT from front: less than 9 seconds

I spared myself the trouble to try the leg sawing because that comparision would only have been fair if the ANH had been skilled and upgraded like the PIR-1 that was used

Yeah I tied a noose around my neck on that one. No, the spider and the raven way back when were meta sniper lights, I did not mean to imply that all meta lights have been dive bombers (though most have). All the meta lights that were CQC mechs have been dive bombers in that they have adopted the strategy of run in, whack to target and bug out, then rinse and repeat.

What question do you want me to answer that I haven't?

Good, the Ani gets about the same time from the front as the Piranha does from the back, that's about what I expected. Of-course I don't think the piranha can chew thru an assault mechs frontal plating as fast as another assault can, but that's not where competent Piranhas strike.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 18 October 2018 - 05:01 PM.