270 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Honestly the idea has merit on its own - which is critical. Regardless of what does or doesn't happen with queues, regardless of FW or QP or GQ the idea of good players and teams being motivated to handicap against less challenging enemies and less skilled players getting rewarded for doubling-down on their effort in the face of challenging matchups is a great, great idea.

Any idea will have edge cases that could potentially be an issue. This concept though, by far, is a net positive.

Next step is Nighbird condensing the whole idea to something you can fit in a single Tweet so we can get it seriously looked at by PGI.

[Spheroid]

Handicapping effects the intensity of the stomp, but there is also the approach of reducing the frequency of the stomp in an attempt to not drive players away.

Either enable same faction matchmaking or perhaps prevent players from fighting the same group repeatedly without break. A full ghost drop is 10 minutes + 10 minutes in the lobby. If you had a consistent population of 24 on both sides the wait for matchmaking avoidance would still be less that of a ghost drop and would rapidly drop the more players are added.

Depending on the average time a stomp takes you could still end up waiting less with a forced alternating opponent than a ghost drop even in cases on unequal faction numbers.

Current faction tools are useless. In the old days I could tell exactly how many players were fighting on a planet, the progress of their battle and the map. We have none of that now. No tools exist to equalize imbalance in Clan-I.S. population. Its complete guess work.
.

[S O L A I S]

Nightbird, on 23 October 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

Oh yes, give more drop decks purtty please

This one should be a no brainer for pgi. Free and quick cash infusion from a good deal of the CW diehard community.

Even at current prices I'd buy four more for each of my main accounts.

[S O L A I S]

Hazeclaw, on 23 October 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

4 assassins, what do I win? Lol

It's a great idea, hopefully people wouldnt be too salty from the waves of lights/fast mediums this will certainly bring

But brah, the pugs are already heavily invested in the lock on weapons. This might actually work out a couple of ways for them.

[K O Z A K]

S O L A I S, on 26 October 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

But brah, the pugs are already heavily invested in the lock on weapons. This might actually work out a couple of ways for them.

I've seen enough 12 assassins/fast mediums/lights/w/e vs pugs drops to know exactly how it works out. 3 pugs instantly ragequit, 3 pugs suicide all their mechs, 3 pugs shoot 90% of their weapons at terrain in frantic panic, and the 3 actual pilots basically fight 3v12, still manage a good score, but get rekt anyways because there's nothing to be done

I gotta say though, after years it amazes me how much optimism and hope you all still hold, thinking this developer will actually listen to a good idea and implement it in a way that won't look like it's been done by handicapped monkeys

[Eisenhorne]

Hazeclaw, on 26 October 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

I've seen enough 12 assassins/fast mediums/lights/w/e vs pugs drops to know exactly how it works out. 3 pugs instantly ragequit, 3 pugs suicide all their mechs, 3 pugs shoot 90% of their weapons at terrain in frantic panic, and the 3 actual pilots basically fight 3v12, still manage a good score, but get rekt anyways because there's nothing to be done

I gotta say though, after years it amazes me how much optimism and hope you all still hold, thinking this developer will actually listen to a good idea and implement it in a way that won't look like it's been done by handicapped monkeys

Making suggestions about this game is more of a thought exercise than anything else. Like it's nice to daydream about what you'd do if you won the lottery... it's also nice to daydream about what PGI could do if they gave a damn about FP.

[Daurock]

Hazeclaw, on 26 October 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

I've seen enough 12 assassins/fast mediums/lights/w/e vs pugs drops to know exactly how it works out. 3 pugs instantly ragequit, 3 pugs suicide all their mechs, 3 pugs shoot 90% of their weapons at terrain in frantic panic, and the 3 actual pilots basically fight 3v12, still manage a good score, but get rekt anyways because there's nothing to be done

I gotta say though, after years it amazes me how much optimism and hope you all still hold, thinking this developer will actually listen to a good idea and implement it in a way that won't look like it's been done by handicapped monkeys

Sadly, even as good of an idea it is on its face, it does encourage that sort of behavior, and is fairly easy to abuse - at least for the organized groups. Your post highlights this.

I.E.-
Step 1: Group up with a bunch of other good players,
Step 2: Use the incentive and proceed to launch in a bunch of crabs/assassins, etc, because you're going to win anyway due to the typical pug behavior you mentioned in the above post. (And the fact that unlike the pug group, you've already weeded out the bads, due to step 1.)
Step 3: Stomp the opposing pug just as hard, and then profit even more than before.

Until and unless that group of good players actually is in danger of losing a few matches, (Whether it be due to other groups actually showing up to play, or hamstringing them against pugs in some un-fun fashion, both of which are a pipe dream.) it won't really have a meaningful effect on CW.

Edited by Daurock, 26 October 2018 - 12:35 PM.

[Nightbird]

Daurock, on 26 October 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

Step 1: Group up with a bunch of other good players,
Step 2: Use the incentive and proceed to launch in a bunch of crabs/assassins, etc, because you're going to win anyway due to the typical pug behavior you mentioned in the above post. (And the fact that unlike the pug group, you've already weeded out the bads, due to step 1.)
Step 3: Stomp the opposing pug just as hard, and then profit even more than before.

The point isn't to force the stronger team to rollover and lose to a weaker team, it is to have the final score be closer and have the losing team earn more cbills. There may be an upset now and then, but the weaker team has to put in effort.

It's a handicap, it's not charity.

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2018 - 12:48 PM.

[K O Z A K]

Daurock, on 26 October 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

Sadly, even as good of an idea it is on its face, it does encourage that sort of behavior, and is fairly easy to abuse - at least for the organized groups. Your post highlights this.

I.E.-
Step 1: Group up with a bunch of other good players,
Step 2: Use the incentive and proceed to launch in a bunch of crabs/assassins, etc, because you're going to win anyway due to the typical pug behavior you mentioned in the above post. (And the fact that unlike the pug group, you've already weeded out the bads, due to step 1.)
Step 3: Stomp the opposing pug just as hard, and then profit even more than before.

Until and unless that group of good players actually is in danger of losing a few matches, (Whether it be due to other groups actually showing up to play, or hamstringing them against pugs in some un-fun fashion, both of which are a pipe dream.) it won't really have a meaningful effect on CW.

the 12 fast rush tactics are usually not done by good players, they are generally done by poorly skilled players that play together in an organized fashion, most good players are actually not fond of these tactics and will only do it extremely rarely just to mix things up a bit

this idea will actually help a bit, and if anything will just bring another variable into gameplay to give groups a reason to underton, but it won't do anything in the large group vs total pug scenarios as pugs just panic when they see large organized groups, no matter how bad they actually are. It will certainly make these losses a little less painful for newer players, which is a very good thing. But I still don't believe any of this will be implemented because would you like to buy a mechpack? Also we made weapon ....... 0.95% of it's effectiveness, and mech ........ 1.05% of it's previous effectiveness, so see, we're actively doing stuff, keep buying stuff Also MECH CON and MW5!!!

[Daurock]

Hazeclaw, on 26 October 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

the 12 fast rush tactics are usually not done by good players, they are generally done by poorly skilled players that play together in an organized fashion, most good players are actually not fond of these tactics and will only do it extremely rarely just to mix things up a bit

Probably true.

It doesn't answer the basic question though - What is the purpose of incentivizing / enforcing people to under-ton? Do we wish to see more rushes from good groups? Will it make a group vs. group fight better if one or both sides bring 50 tonners to the fight instead of the usual mechs? Does it shift the balance (Either group vs. group, or group vs. pug) in a meaningful, and helpful way?


At it's core, If we can't find a meaningful reason to do it, it won't have a reason to be done. Especially with "Do you want to buy a mechpack" being the normal course for develpment these days.

Edited by Daurock, 26 October 2018 - 01:20 PM.

[Nightbird]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:

Next step is Nighbird condensing the whole idea to something you can fit in a single Tweet so we can get it seriously looked at by PGI.

I don't believe in tweets, I believe in refunds.

My draft in progress:

Hello,

I'd like to request a refund of my Vapor Eagle collectors pack pre-order.

The reason I am requesting a refund is because of unhappiness over the current state of Faction Play, and disagreement on the future direction of Faction Play. I believe it is impossible to create balanced teams to face each other in FP via Match Maker as is proposed, and I believe PGI already understands that poor matches cause players to leave MWO. I believe the only viable course is to create better matches with the breadth of team skill levels that exist in the player base. I described one possible approach in this thread: https://mwomercs.com...n-in-one-month. I am not demanding this particular solution be implemented. As long as a viable solution is promised, I will reconsider this and future refunds.

Sincerely,

Edited by Nightbird, 26 October 2018 - 02:33 PM.

[MischiefSC]

There is no change to game mechanics that will make bad players win more. That is and has always been a pipe dream. If someone is bad at the game and doesn't play as a team in a mode with respawns especially, they will always lose to those who do. Pretty much always.

The question is can you make being bad and inevitably losing a bit less brutal and reward people for putting in the effort to get better.

This does that.

[theUgly]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

There is no change to game mechanics that will make bad players win more. That is and has always been a pipe dream. If someone is bad at the game and doesn't play as a team in a mode with respawns especially, they will always lose to those who do. Pretty much always.

The question is can you make being bad and inevitably losing a bit less brutal and reward people for putting in the effort to get better.

This does that.

16k plus posts !?
If you did separated from Kcom and did as much talking as you do on the forums
and did on voit over a game you would have had an own unit running by now.

Cant believe need to explain this to bunch a vets that have the skills twice over me...
PGI is not to blame that CW is going down ,, we are ..

There is no leaders able to put in time with the new players to make this game interesting..

There is no Scar , no Spider , no RG Wolf ... or all the rest good commanders that people liked to play for
.. you step up and lead for the new people or let this game die already

[Nightbird]

theUgly, on 01 November 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

There is no leaders able to put in time with the new players to make this game interesting..

The only one with the keys to the kingdom is PGI, no one else gets blame for trying to fill in where PGI fell short.

[LordNothing]

idk its kind of a slippery slope. the disadvantaged team will just run more assaults, and they the will get farmed by the other trams squirrels.

[MischiefSC]

theUgly, on 01 November 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

16k plus posts !?
If you did separated from Kcom and did as much talking as you do on the forums
and did on voit over a game you would have had an own unit running by now.

Cant believe need to explain this to bunch a vets that have the skills twice over me...
PGI is not to blame that CW is going down ,, we are ..

There is no leaders able to put in time with the new players to make this game interesting..

There is no Scar , no Spider , no RG Wolf ... or all the rest good commanders that people liked to play for
.. you step up and lead for the new people or let this game die already

I played with the big leaders. Pretty much all of them at one point or another. Before VOIP was even in game I called 5-10 FW matches 7 days a week while pugging in FW and I did it via chat, didn't even use a mic in Teamspeak most the time because I wanted to ensure I was including the pugs.

Was in a WhatsApp, for years, with unit leaders that accounted for about 2k active players at peak. It got renamed 'TheSaltMine' with the OneBukkit announcement and the end of faction relevance and went empty shortly there after. 3+ years it went on with officers of over a dozen units talking about FW and helping coordinate play and players and share builds and strats to spread out to their teams with constant, daily activity. As a random example June 21, 2016 had 117 comments on that day alone. Working on the AFFS Expeditionary Force, a ton of Davion units shifted to Steiner. Player created event of sorts.

There have been tons of great leaders trying to lead in FW. Some of the best are names you likely wouldn't recognize who helped gather, onboard and train a significant percentage of the players who ever played FW. They coordinated events, hopped between dozens of Teamspeaks to help keep people gathered and did wonders to help people get matches back in the day.

Hundreds of players spent thousands of hours each and thousands of dollars each to lead and drive a population of tens of thousands of players in FW. They worked all hours, took time off work to make events, worked family time and outings around taking care of their units. It was amazing and as someone who actually worked in the gaming industry for a lot of years I was absolutely blown away by just how much time, effort and energy so many people put into organizing units and gameplay and just flat out leading with the complete lack of tools MWO had for FW for the bulk of its existence.

In the end however they couldn't keep up with PGIs decisions to just not deliver a lot of promised content, years of terrible, terrible game balance (Clan/IS balance was broken badly the first half of FWs existence), PGIs crushing apathy about FW in general (18 months where they literally didn't even have any employees looking at it, at all, in any way), 18 months of Long Tom (that put a bullet in a lot of heads), the incredibly stupid decisions around Loyalist/Merc costs/requirements (you were always pushed for being a Loyalist which was just magically stupid and incompetent on a scale that still boggles me) and finally.... OneBukkit, which ended even the shallow illusion of Factions as relevant in Faction Warfare.

So leaders left. They did everything they could and if PGI had put in 1/100ths their effort back into FW it would be a Big Deal even today I have 0 doubt. PGI didn't, they decided it was too much trouble and abandoned it and the players in question spent years hoping against hope it would turn around but.... no. So they left.

Incredible, really. All those players, all that effort, still couldn't keep up with the sheer apathy PGI had for FW. In the end PGI killed FW with full metal jacket apathy. It took years but they finally got the player base to stop caring about MWO and FW. Now? The brutal truth is it wouldn't matter. FW has been **** on so hard that you can't make most of these people want to play it again. Couldn't bribe them to do it. They invested years, thousands of hours, sacrifices to family time and important things, they got passionate and invested in it, and PGI just... blew it off. Not like for a weekend or a month but for a year or more at a time.

You can't really fix that.

[theUgly]

MischiefSC, on 02 November 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

I played with the big leaders. Pretty much all of them at one point or another. Before VOIP was even in game I called 5-10 FW matches 7 days a week while pugging in FW and I did it via chat, didn't even use a mic in Teamspeak most the time because I wanted to ensure I was including the pugs.

Was in a WhatsApp, for years, with unit leaders that accounted for about 2k active players at peak. It got renamed 'TheSaltMine' with the OneBukkit announcement and the end of faction relevance and went empty shortly there after. 3+ years it went on with officers of over a dozen units talking about FW and helping coordinate play and players and share builds and strats to spread out to their teams with constant, daily activity. As a random example June 21, 2016 had 117 comments on that day alone. Working on the AFFS Expeditionary Force, a ton of Davion units shifted to Steiner. Player created event of sorts.

There have been tons of great leaders trying to lead in FW. Some of the best are names you likely wouldn't recognize who helped gather, onboard and train a significant percentage of the players who ever played FW. They coordinated events, hopped between dozens of Teamspeaks to help keep people gathered and did wonders to help people get matches back in the day.

Hundreds of players spent thousands of hours each and thousands of dollars each to lead and drive a population of tens of thousands of players in FW. They worked all hours, took time off work to make events, worked family time and outings around taking care of their units. It was amazing and as someone who actually worked in the gaming industry for a lot of years I was absolutely blown away by just how much time, effort and energy so many people put into organizing units and gameplay and just flat out leading with the complete lack of tools MWO had for FW for the bulk of its existence.

In the end however they couldn't keep up with PGIs decisions to just not deliver a lot of promised content, years of terrible, terrible game balance (Clan/IS balance was broken badly the first half of FWs existence), PGIs crushing apathy about FW in general (18 months where they literally didn't even have any employees looking at it, at all, in any way), 18 months of Long Tom (that put a bullet in a lot of heads), the incredibly stupid decisions around Loyalist/Merc costs/requirements (you were always pushed for being a Loyalist which was just magically stupid and incompetent on a scale that still boggles me) and finally.... OneBukkit, which ended even the shallow illusion of Factions as relevant in Faction Warfare.

So leaders left. They did everything they could and if PGI had put in 1/100ths their effort back into FW it would be a Big Deal even today I have 0 doubt. PGI didn't, they decided it was too much trouble and abandoned it and the players in question spent years hoping against hope it would turn around but.... no. So they left.

Incredible, really. All those players, all that effort, still couldn't keep up with the sheer apathy PGI had for FW. In the end PGI killed FW with full metal jacket apathy. It took years but they finally got the player base to stop caring about MWO and FW. Now? The brutal truth is it wouldn't matter. FW has been **** on so hard that you can't make most of these people want to play it again. Couldn't bribe them to do it. They invested years, thousands of hours, sacrifices to family time and important things, they got passionate and invested in it, and PGI just... blew it off. Not like for a weekend or a month but for a year or more at a time.

You can't really fix that.

MischiefSC, on 02 November 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

I played with the big leaders. Pretty much all of them at one point or another. Before VOIP was even in game I called 5-10 FW matches 7 days a week while pugging in FW and I did it via chat, didn't even use a mic in Teamspeak most the time because I wanted to ensure I was including the pugs.

Was in a WhatsApp, for years, with unit leaders that accounted for about 2k active players at peak. It got renamed 'TheSaltMine' with the OneBukkit announcement and the end of faction relevance and went empty shortly there after. 3+ years it went on with officers of over a dozen units talking about FW and helping coordinate play and players and share builds and strats to spread out to their teams with constant, daily activity. As a random example June 21, 2016 had 117 comments on that day alone. Working on the AFFS Expeditionary Force, a ton of Davion units shifted to Steiner. Player created event of sorts.

There have been tons of great leaders trying to lead in FW. Some of the best are names you likely wouldn't recognize who helped gather, onboard and train a significant percentage of the players who ever played FW. They coordinated events, hopped between dozens of Teamspeaks to help keep people gathered and did wonders to help people get matches back in the day.

Hundreds of players spent thousands of hours each and thousands of dollars each to lead and drive a population of tens of thousands of players in FW. They worked all hours, took time off work to make events, worked family time and outings around taking care of their units. It was amazing and as someone who actually worked in the gaming industry for a lot of years I was absolutely blown away by just how much time, effort and energy so many people put into organizing units and gameplay and just flat out leading with the complete lack of tools MWO had for FW for the bulk of its existence.

In the end however they couldn't keep up with PGIs decisions to just not deliver a lot of promised content, years of terrible, terrible game balance (Clan/IS balance was broken badly the first half of FWs existence), PGIs crushing apathy about FW in general (18 months where they literally didn't even have any employees looking at it, at all, in any way), 18 months of Long Tom (that put a bullet in a lot of heads), the incredibly stupid decisions around Loyalist/Merc costs/requirements (you were always pushed for being a Loyalist which was just magically stupid and incompetent on a scale that still boggles me) and finally.... OneBukkit, which ended even the shallow illusion of Factions as relevant in Faction Warfare.

So leaders left. They did everything they could and if PGI had put in 1/100ths their effort back into FW it would be a Big Deal even today I have 0 doubt. PGI didn't, they decided it was too much trouble and abandoned it and the players in question spent years hoping against hope it would turn around but.... no. So they left.

Incredible, really. All those players, all that effort, still couldn't keep up with the sheer apathy PGI had for FW. In the end PGI killed FW with full metal jacket apathy. It took years but they finally got the player base to stop caring about MWO and FW. Now? The brutal truth is it wouldn't matter. FW has been **** on so hard that you can't make most of these people want to play it again. Couldn't bribe them to do it. They invested years, thousands of hours, sacrifices to family time and important things, they got passionate and invested in it, and PGI just... blew it off. Not like for a weekend or a month but for a year or more at a time.

You can't really fix that.

I see you point man and maybe i am wrong.
Do miss the time when everybody represented their unit tags, teammates
and leaders ... a lot.

What is the point of dropping again and again if there is no new unit forming up
which try to have their own style of play.

Maybe it is time to leave for good ... lets see.

[Extra Guac]

Using tonnage adjustments as a way of accounting for skill discrepancies is a great idea. But if you're giving teams different tonnages from match to match, then you need to give them enough time to set up their dropdecks once they get a match. They could also give weaker teams some subtle in-game advantage whether it's satellite sweep, radar jam, extra turrets, etc.

To take it even further: give weak players a fifth mech!

A c-bill penalty for good teams seems like a really bad idea imo. You don't want to drive people away from the game, you just want more competitive matches.

[MischiefSC]

theUgly, on 04 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

I see you point man and maybe i am wrong.
Do miss the time when everybody represented their unit tags, teammates
and leaders ... a lot.

What is the point of dropping again and again if there is no new unit forming up
which try to have their own style of play.

Maybe it is time to leave for good ... lets see.

I wish I could be more positive. When I was reading your post and went back to the old unit leadership WhatsApp that's still on my phone (I can't bring myself to delete it though it's got pages of messages over the last 12 months that's nothing but people leaving the channel, nobody talks in it anymore) and it was just a punch in the gut.

So many great leaders and players, so much work, so much energy and investment. The pages of screenshots from the last 2 mechcons, how invested and engaged everyone was. People made custom t-shirts and patches and such for their units.

It would have taken so little effort from PGI to turn that into a proper firestorm. Hard not to be bitter and just a wasted opportunity.

[Nightbird]

Deepfryer, on 04 November 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

To take it even further: give weak players a fifth mech!

A c-bill penalty for good teams seems like a really bad idea imo. You don't want to drive people away from the game, you just want more competitive matches.

Drop deck limit changes (mechs number and tonnage) are off the table per PGI. C-bill changes based on your tonnage is a way around that.