66 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

I would start out the Blazer stats something like this:

Damage: 15-16
Heat: 14
Range: 450-500
Duration: 1.0 (yes, shorter than the LL)
Cooldown: 4.0-4.5
Ghost Heat Cap: 2 (linked with LL/ERLL/LPL)

I'm using the regular LL as the baseline here, if these stats seem underwhelming compared to Clam Lazor Vomitz that's just a reflection of the LL itself being in such a state.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2018 - 07:04 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 November 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

7 tons, 14 heat, 9 damage

The stock Large X-Pulse is so bad. I guess it has to be, to not flat out obsolete the standard Large Pulse Laser.

I don't think it can be saved. Well, make it 12 damage and give it an absurdly low duration for a 450M weapon, less than the LPL..


How would you balance that objectively superior weapon?

If what I hear about table top's hex sizes being 33m each then the LXPL has 165 extra meters over the LPL. Though I think MW4 had LXPL doing both more damage while having longer range.


They could have balanced it with 30 heat cap, but hey big alphas am I right? As for the weapon, I would have had the cERPPC having a slightly longer Cool down over the IS ERPPC.

[FupDup]

Shadowomega1, on 28 November 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

If what I hear about table top's hex sizes being 33m each then the LXPL has 165 extra meters over the LPL. Though I think MW4 had LXPL doing both more damage while having longer range.


They could have balanced it with 30 heat cap, but hey big alphas am I right? As for the weapon, I would have had the cERPPC having a slightly longer Cool down over the IS ERPPC.

TT hexes are 30 meters, not 33.

The TT range advantage for LXPL is thus 150 meters (300 vs. 450). However, in MWO the LPL got buffed to 360 so now it's only a 90 meter advantage (assuming PGI doesn't push LXPL above the TT range value).

If PGI did carry over the 150 advantage to MWO that could give the LXPL 510 meters optimal range...super juicy but super unlikely.

Edited by FupDup, 28 November 2018 - 07:09 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

FupDup, on 28 November 2018 - 07:07 PM, said:

TT hexes are 30 meters, not 33.

The TT range advantage for LXPL is thus 150 meters (300 vs. 450). However, in MWO the LPL got buffed to 360 so now it's only a 90 meter advantage (assuming PGI doesn't push LXPL above the TT range value).

If PGI did carry over the 150 advantage to MWO that could give the LXPL 510 meters optimal range...super juicy but super unlikely.

Then their likely to buff the LXPL the sameway.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 November 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

I agree! Just remove the splash and reduce the heat. There, easy.

The splash is useless anyway... right?

Though I would prefer 15 damage, yours is unironicaly the second best choice.

[Jay Leon Hart]

El Bandito, on 28 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

What's the cooldown on the Blazer?

No idea

[The pessimistic optimist]

FupDup, on 28 November 2018 - 07:07 PM, said:

TT hexes are 30 meters, not 33.

The TT range advantage for LXPL is thus 150 meters (300 vs. 450). However, in MWO the LPL got buffed to 360 so now it's only a 90 meter advantage (assuming PGI doesn't push LXPL above the TT range value).

If PGI did carry over the 150 advantage to MWO that could give the LXPL 510 meters optimal range...super juicy but super unlikely.

That would be great 510 pare up nicely with some MRM or gauss.

[Daurock]

Gonna be honest, most of the X-Pulse and Blasers don't seem like they'd be that Attractive to me, unless they'd get major changes from what you see in the TT weapons.

The first reason for that, is because one of the big things IS lasers in general have going for them is good damage/heat values. This is important since IS mechs cannot boat as many heatsinks as clan can. Any weapon that has compromises on that front is going to be a pretty tough weapon to be effective with, unless it offers some other dramatic advantage. (Like exceptional range, PPFLD, or some other aspect that isn't available elsewhere.) For example, take that Blaser - Not only does it compete with the clan HLL in terms of design, but at 9 tons, 4 slots, it also almost directly competes with the Heavy PPC - a 540 yard, PPFLD weapon. Just what is it going to have to look like to compete with that? Something FAR different from it's original TT values, i would guess. If this were the only problem, it probably wouldn't deter me, though, because most weapons are fudged here and there, and you could tune them to do what they do appropriately.

However, there is a second thing that concerns me - What new weapon, role, etc would you like, and/or expect these weapons to fill? For the civil war, you found that most of the added weapons (that didn't just flesh out a set) did something not yet accomplished - Examples include RACs with amazing DPS, and dramatic drawbcks, ATMs that created there own niche, or even Heavy lasers that pushed clan laser alphas on the into the stratosphere for many mechs. This contrasts with something like a blaser, which, if you go by the tabletop lore, is going to be very much an either/or when comparing it to a pair of large lasers. It's either going to replace them in-masse because they are tuned to be better, or no one will use them at all, since the two weapons would compete for almost identical roles. Lasers are one of those weapons that need a little more defining already, and adding more, very similar when boated weapons to that mix just creates more confusion to that mix, which concerns me.

If Anything, new IS laser options, like blasers and X-Pulse, need to be more radically different than other IS lasers - Think more along the lines of Large X-Pulse lasers only dealing light damage, but with sub 2 second burn+Cycle times. (Like a LXPL looking like a laser AC5, or AC2) or Blasers that really do look like exaggerated heavy lasers. (This means having the damage to match their massive tonnages, likely pushing out to previously unseen laser damage values.) Whether these types of idea stray too far from the lore is obviously a potential issue here, but i can't think of a way they start to create new roles, and thus avoid either being unused, or pushing other weapons out, without being that different.

Edited by Daurock, 29 November 2018 - 08:35 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Daurock, on 29 November 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Gonna be honest, most of the X-Pulse and Blasers don't seem like they'd be that Attractive to me, unless they'd get major changes from what you see in the TT weapons.

The first reason for that, is because one of the big things IS lasers in general have going for them is good damage/heat values. This is important since IS mechs cannot boat as many heatsinks as clan can. Any weapon that has compromises on that front is going to be a pretty tough weapon to be effective with, unless it offers some other dramatic advantage. (Like exceptional range, PPFLD, or some other aspect that isn't available elsewhere.) For example, take that Blaser - Not only does it compete with the clan HLL in terms of design, but at 9 tons, 4 slots, it also almost directly competes with the Heavy PPC - a 540 yard, PPFLD weapon. Just what is it going to have to look like to compete with that? Something FAR different from it's original TT values, i would guess. If this were the only problem, it probably wouldn't deter me, though, because most weapons are fudged here and there, and you could tune them to do what they do appropriately.

However, there is a second thing that concerns me - What new weapon, role, etc would you like, and/or expect these weapons to fill? For the civil war, you found that most of the added weapons did something not yet accomplished - Examples include RACs with amazing DPS, and dramatic drawbcks, and Heavy lasers that pushed clan laser alphas on the into the stratosphere for many mechs. This contrasts with something like a blaser, which, if you go by the tabletop lore, is going to be very much an either/or when comparing it to a pair of large lasers. It's either going to replace them in-masse because they are tuned to be better, or no one will use them at all, since the two weapons would compete for almost identical roles. Lasers are one of those weapons that need a little more defining already, and adding more, very similar when boated weapons to that mix just creates more confusion to that mix, which concerns me.

If Anything, new IS laser options, like blasers and X-Pulse, need to be more radically different than other IS lasers - Think more along the lines of Large X-Pulse lasers only dealing light damage, but with sub 2 second burn+Cycle times. (Like a LXPL looking like a laser AC5) or Blasers that really do look like exaggerated heavy lasers. (This means having the damage to match their massive tonnages, likely pushing out to previously unseen laser damage values.) Whether these types of idea stray too far from the lore is obviously a potential issue here, but i can't think of a way they start to create new roles, and thus avoid either being unused, or pushing other weapons out, without being that different.

I not oppressed to this. They have already had to change weapons from lore to make them balanced.

[Alexander of Macedon]

SirSmokes, on 27 November 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Well I find most of the time heavy's are not worth taking over std pulse laser on most builds. Unless you going heavy laser vomit then yea general purpose.

They absolutely were, especially before the HLL damage nerf. The alpha potential was genuinely stupid and I'm glad they got nerfed, even though my Timbie will miss being able to core out heavies with two burns.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

PPC
Light PPC
Heavy PPC
ER-PPC
Snubnose-PPC

ER-PPC

ya.. IS needs more cool energy stuff.

[FLG 01]

The Blazer could easily work by giving it an extraordinarily short burn duration. That would simulate it greatest TT advantage, i.e. big damage to a single component, but it would still have its obvious disadvantages.
Considering the weapon was rare but regularly available (Availability Rating "E"), I think it is a worthy addition.

[Daurock]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 30 November 2018 - 04:47 AM, said:

PPC
Light PPC
Heavy PPC
ER-PPC
Snubnose-PPC

ER-PPC

ya.. IS needs more cool energy stuff.

If your point is that clan is lacking PPFLD options, then I'd agree heartily. That, however, is a different complaint for a different thread.

However, I look at this post, and note that it is a good example of where a lot of choices on paper does not equal as many choices in practice. The standard and ERPPC you could make a case for actually being different weapons. Their range profiles, and Heat profiles, make them different enough to make them unique weapons for different roles. The snub you could as well, though i would argue that the weapon is mostly under-tuned, and that the high-heat nature of the PPC almost kills it as a useful short ranged weapon by default. (When you're creating less heat by Ghost heating twin AC20s than using 1 AC20 and 2 Snubbies, you know you're generating a bit too much heat.)

However, between the Light, STD, and Heavy PPCs, you have functionally nearly identical weapons. Much like SRMs, LRMs, or ATMs, these weapons are simply scalars of 1 platform - the PPC. The developers could go further in differentiating the main-stem PPCs, much like they attempt to do with the Missile launchers, which vary spread, and vary reload and heat ratios much more widely than the PPC family does. Diving into reload times, varying the Heat profiles a little bit, and/or changing the velocity or damage/ton a little bit for the group would help to differentiate them more dramatically than what we have now. (My personal preference would probably be to make each heavier step of PPC become less efficient Damage/Ton wise, but be able to go to higher PPFLD before running into ghost heat.)

Essentially, as is, you have 2, maybe 3 functional options for IS-PPCs - Standard range, ER, or Snub (and snub is awful) I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that I'd like to see any new Laser options expand your functional choices, not muddy the waters by being very similar variations of other, already existing options. The PPC situation IS side is an example of there being many, very similar choices.

[R Valentine]

Why do we need new tech when there's old tech that no one even touches. IS ERPPC? You know, the only weapon in the game that generates more heat than it does damage. Can't we fix that first?

[FupDup]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 November 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

Why do we need new tech when there's old tech that no one even touches. IS ERPPC? You know, the only weapon in the game that generates more heat than it does damage. Can't we fix that first?

The Clan ERLL is another gun that has more heat than damage.

[R Valentine]

FupDup, on 30 November 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

The Clan ERLL is another gun that has more heat than damage.

Yet somehow still manages to generate less heat and do more damage than IS ERPPC.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 November 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yet somehow still manages to generate less heat and do more damage than IS ERPPC.

It's also lighter and has less slots! Burn the witch, i say!

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 30 November 2018 - 11:17 AM.

[Daurock]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 30 November 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

It's also lighter and has less slots! Burn the witch, i say!

I'll admit it, i chuckled.

In all seriousness though - The IS ERPPC, while certainly more limited than the clan PPC for general use, (IMO) it still has its uses for people that value the velocity boost it has over the clan one, usually for the purposes of long range precision. For an extreme ranged harasser, (Like, say an Uziel or shadow cat that's playing the entire game at 1,000 yards) It's actually a decent weapon. I have at least a couple of mechs I' probably use it over standard-ranged PPCs, cPPCs, or even ERLLsfor that matter.

Edited by Daurock, 30 November 2018 - 02:27 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

IT GOES 1/5 FASTER THAN CLAN AT DEFAULT.
Default 1800 m/s. Let's pick a run of the mill IS velo quirk, hmmmm that's 20%. it now goes 2,160 m/s.
A clan erppc goes 1,500 m/s. on a clan mech with say 10% velo goes a whopping 1,650 m/s hmmm.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 30 November 2018 - 02:58 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Kiran Yagami, on 30 November 2018 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yet somehow still manages to generate less heat and do more damage than IS ERPPC.

IS ERPPC is an example of bad design decision solidified into canon over the years. Same as a clan one.

Before minrange became a thing, regular PPC was all you'd ever need, and no one in the right state of mind would use ERPPC. Or there were no ER PPC at all, I can't recall.

Then someone decided it was too OP and came up with the idea of minrange.
Regular PPC became meh because of minrange, ERPPC haven't quite replaced it because of heat, and clan ERPPC produces more heat than damage just because shut up and enjoy that juicy splash.