41 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

Except that AMS can be gamed, and because the percentile ranking is based so heavily on a flawed game mechanic it isn't a good measure of skill on its own.

The tier system already does what you're asking for, but it allows players to move up too quickly. No one is going to play the game on their main with a handicap system in place, they're just going to roll alts to play unrestricted.

Edited by Prototelis, 07 December 2018 - 11:01 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Dimento Graven, on 07 December 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

Yes, yes, the tiering system. The problem is that with the current size of the population the current Tiering system can't be made to work. Hence simplifying it and adding 'modifications' to 'out of bounds' play.

It can be improved upon though. And that's the thing, it's not that hard to do.

Doing so would not stomp all stomps but it would aid in some of it, irrespective of population.

[Dimento Graven]

Prototelis, on 07 December 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

Except that AMS can be gamed, and because the percentile ranking is based so heavily on a flawed game mechanic it isn't a good measure of skill on its own.

The tier system already does what you're asking for, but it allows players to move up too quickly. No one is going to play the game on their main with a handicap system in place, they're just going to roll alts to play unrestricted.

justcallme A S H, on 07 December 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

It can be improved upon though. And that's the thing, it's not that hard to do.

Doing so would not stomp all stomps but it would aid in some of it, irrespective of population.

No, current population can't support the Tiering system, and the Tiering system can't work for group play or FW.

We'd need, at a minimum, several thousand players, per server (EU, Pacific, NA), to ensure that the current Tiering system would have enough players in each tier, to ensure that T1 players only faced other T1 players, T2-T4 players only faced players of similar rank, and T5 players were isolated until they learned the basics, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, ensuring that game delays ("Searching...") is kept at a minimum.

To even begin to make the current system work for the solo queue PGI would have to:

1. Isolate T5's to only playing against T5's
2 Isolate T4's to only playing T3 and T5.
3. Advertise the crap out of this game to bring a lot of new players.

A good EU/NA/PAC advertising push could bring in at least 100,000 more new players, if only 10% of those stick with the game and played regularly for 2 two 6 months you would see the Tier system start working for everyone (not to mention the additional benefit of additional 'mech pack sales and such).

[Prototelis]

Burden of proof homie. You have yet to demonstrate why;

The tier system won't work even if modified to reduce gains and increase losses
your solution is any different
why a handicap feature won't just be bypassed

I think the experience bar is part of a good match maker, but its only a small part, and it ALREADY does the one thing your suggestion is attempting to fix; Keep new players away from experienced players.

[MyriadDigits]

Prototelis, on 07 December 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Burden of proof homie. You have yet to demonstrate why;

The tier system won't work even if modified to reduce gains and increase losses
your solution is any different
why a handicap feature won't just be bypassed

All the tiers do is segregate the playerbase. MWO peaks at what, 700 on a good day? That'd be about 140 per tier with even distribution, and that's assuming they even have all 3 the servers ticked. Tick just one server and you hardly even have enough for 2 games at a time.

The tiers, or some better MMR system could be used for balancing teams, but at this stage a hard tier system doesn't make a lot of sense. It only makes an already low pop game feel even smaller, and there's enough spuds in T1/T2 that removing hard tiering would only hurt my chances to sync drop with a streamer.

Edit: typo

Edited by MyriadDigits, 07 December 2018 - 12:34 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Prototelis, on 07 December 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Burden of proof homie. You have yet to demonstrate why;

You're not noticing extra long match searching times during prime time now?

The fact is the longer it takes to get a match the more "open" PGI lets the Tier system get, as a matter of fact I'm fairly certain PGI has had to open it so that T1's and T4's face off regularly. Why? Because the size of the population makes it such that keeping T1's exclusively fighting T1's doesn't exist.

PGI has already admitted as such in many, MANY previous posts on the subject from developers.

Quote

The tier system won't work even if modified to reduce gains and increase losses
your solution is any different

What I've suggested isn't much of a Tiering system actually. It's just a 'qualification' process: Who is a Vet and who isn't, and not letting Vets play against Recruits without some portion of their 'mech tied behind their backs to make it more 'fair'.

Quote

why a handicap feature won't just be bypassed

How would you bypass the handicap feature as I've described it?

Quote

I think the experience bar is part of a good match maker, but its only a small part, and it ALREADY does the one thing your suggestion is attempting to fix; Keep new players away from experienced players.

But it's NOT doing that. Regularly new players are facing much more experienced players and are being farmed to the detriment of their gaming experience.

Hence this thread...

[Asym]

Renegade Commander Shepard, on 07 December 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

Hi, Asym! Yes, actually there are a lot of points to evaluate, I'm focusing on just one. And sometimes doing the unpredictable is really fun.

A QP team took an unexpected yesterday in caustic Valley. Once we loaded into the game, someone on out team said: "Oh, please, let's not NASCAR counter-clockwise...." And, another player asked: "Do you have a better idea?" Sure, the original player said..........let's NASCAR on the Axis of the caldera..... So, we did, we cut right thru the middle and the turned hard left and made the same circle and then, on arriving at the turn point, turned right and completed that circle....

No one expected that and it was a massacre because we divided the other team just about in half and ate them a mech at a time and then, repeated the process the other way....

A half NASCAR with a half twist.......... 9.8 on the fun scale and 10.0 for the cooperation of the other 11 players.....a neat win.

Surprise: is a principle of war, for a reason.

[Prototelis]

Dimento Graven, on 07 December 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

You're not noticing extra long match searching times during prime time now?

The fact is the longer it takes to get a match the more "open" PGI lets the Tier system get, as a matter of fact I'm fairly certain PGI has had to open it so that T1's and T4's face off regularly. Why? Because the size of the population makes it such that keeping T1's exclusively fighting T1's doesn't exist.

Paul Inouye, on 30 May 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

1) Stop allowing Tier 1 players to play against Tier 4 and 5 players completely. Hard line.. no ifs ands or buts no matter how low the player count is in off peak times. To do this, the value for Tier separation has been set to 2. The biggest skill gap allowed now is Tier 1 to Tier 3. Tier 2 to Tier 4. Tier 3 to Tier 5.

To my knowledge these changes have not been reverted.

Tier 1 players are not matched up with tier 4 and 5 players. They aren't ever going to release percentages of active players per tier, but its easy enough to tell that most of the remaining active players are probably tier 1 or slowly falling up to tier 1. The game is at a phase, that regardless of matchmaking, there will be extended wait times. What the match maker needs to do, instead of restricting based on tier is balance teams based on a variety of metrics already available.

[Nightbird]

Prototelis, on 07 December 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

What the match maker needs to do, instead of restricting based on tier is balance teams based on a variety of metrics already available.

Per Paul at mechcon, MM update is not on the table

[Dimento Graven]

Prototelis, on 07 December 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

To my knowledge these changes have not been reverted.

Tier 1 players are not matched up with tier 4 and 5 players. They aren't ever going to release percentages of active players per tier, but its easy enough to tell that most of the remaining active players are probably tier 1 or slowly falling up to tier 1. The game is at a phase, that regardless of matchmaking, there will be extended wait times. What the match maker needs to do, instead of restricting based on tier is balance teams based on a variety of metrics already available.

I thought that's what my suggestion did, with an added flavor of providing Vets the option to play against the lower tier but with artificial handicaps for 'balance' and 'fun'.

[Prototelis]

Nightbird, on 07 December 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

Per Paul at mechcon, MM update is not on the table

That is a bummer.

[Mole]

I've been playing this game about as long as the OP and I don't remember a time where stomps going one way or the other weren't a regular thing. I think there might be a bit of rosy retrospection bias going on here.

[Dimento Graven]

Mole, on 07 December 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

I've been playing this game about as long as the OP and I don't remember a time where stomps going one way or the other weren't a regular thing. I think there might be a bit of rosy retrospection bias going on here.

Early closed beta was cool, no one was good at the game, and the game was so buggy, and had so few 'mechs and weapons pretty much everyone was on an even playing field...

Beyond that, yeah, you're pretty much right.

[Khobai]

dimento is right that the tier system wont work the way it is now.

the player population is too low to divide it up into even more buckets that cant play eachother. thats asanine and will only cause more problems as more and more players leave. And more players ARE going to leave.

the sad reality of the game's dwindling population means we need a one bucket system that divides players up evenly based on their skill level. maybe at most two buckets to divide complete noobs from more experienced players. but more than two buckets is too many.

Edited by Khobai, 07 December 2018 - 03:21 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Dimento Graven, on 07 December 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

Spoiler

No, current population can't support the Tiering system, and the Tiering system can't work for group play or FW.

We'd need, at a minimum, several thousand players, per server (EU, Pacific, NA), to ensure that the current Tiering system would have enough players in each tier, to ensure that T1 players only faced other T1 players, T2-T4 players only faced players of similar rank, and T5 players were isolated until they learned the basics, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, ensuring that game delays ("Searching...") is kept at a minimum.

To even begin to make the current system work for the solo queue PGI would have to:

1. Isolate T5's to only playing against T5's
2 Isolate T4's to only playing T3 and T5.
3. Advertise the crap out of this game to bring a lot of new players.

A good EU/NA/PAC advertising push could bring in at least 100,000 more new players, if only 10% of those stick with the game and played regularly for 2 two 6 months you would see the Tier system start working for everyone (not to mention the additional benefit of additional 'mech pack sales and such).

Yes. It can. Right now it is just 24 chucked in at random and the Tier system is broken.

If once 24 players were selected (assuming a WORKING Tier system) you then further balance those 24 based on WLR / AMS etc. So that way you won't end up with two players in the top 0.01% of the game on one side and inevitably winning without any effort at all.

Currently there is no secondary balance. It needs to happen, it can happen and it can work.

Will it make every game perfect? No. Will it improve some games? Yes.


What you are talking about - isolating Tiers - is silly. At no point has anyone, that I've seen, proposed that.

[Xmith]

Renegade Commander Shepard, on 06 December 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

Hi Piranha team. I would like to focus on some points that are making the game become somewhat weird in quick play. I see there are many new players coming to try it. There are channels from youtube and streamers that help to spread etc. That's nice. The more players the better. The problem is when the match starts. More precisely at the time when teams are created. I play since 2013 and at that time, even when my team suffered a loss, it was a lot of fun most of the time. The teams were balanced, there was competition. Today, before writing this message, I played several matchs. In all of them, on my team, most of the players were recruits, I say that when I watch them play. They are still lost, learning the maps, getting used to the mechs. Result: our team being destroyed in a short time. We managed to get two or three mechs from the enemy and that's all. There is no fun in this and many novices will uninstall the game. It's not good for us gamers, and not for you developers. I don’t know why this is happening. If groups of veterans are able to cheat something and get together or if it is a poor choice of the game itself. If there are people being smart and coming into a group, you have to be smarter than them and change that. Sorry for the errors in the text, I'm Brazilian and I'm still learning English. Greetings and keep up the great work.

in game, Renegade Commander Shepard

How would you know they were/are recruits? Last night, I logged out after my first two matches. I realized very early that I was not going to have good time. I was playing like a recruit.

Keep in mind, this a team based game. You win and lose as a team. You are part of the team. You may be just as at fault for the losses as the rest of the team. Most importantly, you just flat out ran into better teams.

[Renegade Commander Shepard]

Xmith, on 07 December 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

How would you know they were/are recruits? Last night, I logged out after my first two matches. I realized very early that I was not going to have good time. I was playing like a recruit.

Keep in mind, this a team based game. You win and lose as a team. You are part of the team. You may be just as at fault for the losses as the rest of the team. Most importantly, you just flat out ran into better teams.

Xmith, Yes, I know I'm part of the team and that's how I play. This is not a game for selfishness.

[Renegade Commander Shepard]

Dimento Graven, on 07 December 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

No, current population can't support the Tiering system, and the Tiering system can't work for group play or FW.

We'd need, at a minimum, several thousand players, per server (EU, Pacific, NA), to ensure that the current Tiering system would have enough players in each tier, to ensure that T1 players only faced other T1 players, T2-T4 players only faced players of similar rank, and T5 players were isolated until they learned the basics, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, ensuring that game delays ("Searching...") is kept at a minimum.

To even begin to make the current system work for the solo queue PGI would have to:

1. Isolate T5's to only playing against T5's
2 Isolate T4's to only playing T3 and T5.
3. Advertise the crap out of this game to bring a lot of new players.

A good EU/NA/PAC advertising push could bring in at least 100,000 more new players, if only 10% of those stick with the game and played regularly for 2 two 6 months you would see the Tier system start working for everyone (not to mention the additional benefit of additional 'mech pack sales and such).

It seems we have a cyclical problem. There is no population to create a system that brings a balance to the game and makes it more competitive. And many beginners feeling frustrated give up playing. And the population will never grow.

[Khobai]

Renegade Commander Shepard, on 07 December 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

It seems we have a cyclical problem. There is no population to create a system that brings a balance to the game and makes it more competitive. And many beginners feeling frustrated give up playing. And the population will never grow.

if the game doesnt have the population to balance games, then the only thing left to do is break up the stacked teams ruining the game's balance.

if the game cant draw on a large population of highly skilled players to oppose a highly skilled premade then highly skilled premades simply shouldnt be allowed. Because you will never get a balanced game with them in the queue.

so that means they either need to get rid of stacked groups entirely or create a matchmaker than can split up groups (probably not an option for PGI) or they need seperate buckets for pugs and groups in faction play like quickplay has. but allowing stacked groups to continue to play against pugs is ridiculous. thats not a real solution and PGI should feel bad for thinking it is.

Edited by Khobai, 07 December 2018 - 06:44 PM.

[MechaBattler]

In terms of balancing the teams. That isn't intentional. I think it's just the system they put in place is getting worse in the face of a dwindling population. It was one thing when there were enough people who belong in tier 1 to make up for those that don't. They really need to address this. It's not like we're going to get a sudden infusion of new and old players to bring us back to old levels. Not without some drastic changes.

But I do think they're at least moving somethings in the right direction by giving back some of the that missing mobility.