137 replies to this topic

[RJF Volkodav]

I wonder if all theese "tabletop specialists" ever played it. Lossing side torso on cXL or LFE gives you heat buildup of 10 + heatsink loss (0-8) pts which means that if you fire this turn in a limits of your heatsinks you will rarely even get a chance to shutdown. Tabletop mechanics allowing you to survive ST loss in a most of the cases, but this one here makes any mech using heat generating weapons die on ST loss instantly almost every time.

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 13 December 2018 - 11:55 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

I'm a little late to the game, but it really seems like my dissipation is borked on both my Clan and IS mechs, and that's before even getting damaged.

[Monkey Lover]

Jackal Noble, on 13 December 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

I'm a little late to the game, but it really seems like my dissipation is borked on both my Clan and IS mechs, and that's before even getting damaged.

Yep heat bug is still here and now we have a werid system to deal with.

[Koniving]

RJF Volkodav, on 13 December 2018 - 11:55 PM, said:

I wonder if all theese "tabletop specialists" ever played it. Lossing side torso on cXL or LFE gives you heat buildup of 10 + heatsink loss (0-8) pts which means that if you fire this turn in a limits of your heatsinks you will rarely even get a chance to shutdown. Tabletop mechanics allowing you to survive ST loss in a most of the cases, but this one here makes any mech using heat generating weapons die on ST loss instantly almost every time.

Well lets say you have the heatsinks for cooling 30 units and already have 20 units of unsunk heat. You fire your weapons, possibly to the tune of say 20 more heat (meaning you should be down to 10 units after the fact). Now your LFE / Clan XL is crippled by 2 slots, creating that +10 and you've lost 5 DHS (10 cooling power over 10 seconds) in addition to that.

Your 20 heat of weapons on your already 20 unsunk heat (66% of your capacity) may have expected 30 units of cooling and an outcome of 10 heat unsunk (33.33% heat)....
but instead you're now treated to 20 heat of your weapons used (and given MWO, you've foolishly fired them all at once because Alpha Warrior Online) plus the 10 heat of your engine getting busted, and you're only cooling 20 heat on top of the 66% heat (20) you already had, so now you're at 30 heat unsunk, 100% unavoidable shutdown in this scenario.

And if not for that meddlesome engine damage you would've been able to fire all that, not shutdown and even profited in cooling to be cooler than when you started. Gosh darn it, well that's something a drat now isn't it? Now what if you instead fired your weapons sparringly when you know the risk is coming, and that given we know the specific value of the damage done by heatsink loss (and can also factor in our custom build's heatsink loss along with it for the total effect), we can maintain heat below the threshold that would shut us down.

Given that I typically use DPS-oriented builds anyway, I've only once been shut down by ST loss with such engines in the 13 times its happened to me since the patch. By going DPS my mech is cooling almost as fast as I'm pumping out the heat, so when it does get high letting off the trigger or cutting down the number of weapons currently in use for a brief bit easily brings me under the danger bracket.

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

We were getting dangerously close to some fun brawling type matches and away from the poke/hide/poke games.

This will fix that.

[FRAGTAST1C]

So, if I'm being forced to change all of my mechs engines to standard engines, can I have some C-bills to go along with it?

[denAirwalkerrr]

Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS, on 14 December 2018 - 12:42 AM, said:

We were getting dangerously close to some fun brawling type matches and away from the poke/hide/poke games.

This will fix that.

What? Brawlers are most affected by this change. If you lose side torso in close proximity and get shutdown you’re pretty much dead. And A LOT of brawlers run LFE.

[RJF Volkodav]

Koniving, on 14 December 2018 - 12:32 AM, said:

Well lets say you have the heatsinks for cooling 30 units and already have 20 units of unsunk heat.

Lets take a horse in a vacuum. Read the rules first please and play tabletop. Noone plays with "20 units of unsunk heat" this mek is normally almost dead already because it doesnt moves. I'm laughing about guys discussing tabletop which they never even tried.

MWO heat mechanics is different to tabletop so you are wrong when trying to adapt MWO situation to tabletop. Noone building up heat without any serious need in tabletop and MWO heat scale bar is totally different than what you see on a picture above. In fact MWO heat bar is a heat cap of heatsinks only and not having any builup heat bar which we have in tabletop (do you see any moving speed influence or shutdowns while you are not getting 100% filled bar?). So adapting MWO heatbar to tabletop assume that you heat buildup for every moment is 0. This having a 0 buildup and firing weapons which are not building up heat over the heatsinks limit gives you maximum buildup of 15-20 in tabletop. Or in that case lets switch to tabletop model and give us a heatsink cap + heat bar with penalties and then you will see a true "alpha warriors" able to fire twice more weapons than today.

Like lets take a HBR with 25DHS (50CAP) + heatbar (30CAP) and we'll see what happens.

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 14 December 2018 - 01:07 AM.

[Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS]

denAirwalkerrr, on 14 December 2018 - 12:55 AM, said:

What? Brawlers are most affected by this change. If you lose side torso in close proximity and get shutdown you’re pretty much dead. And A LOT of brawlers run LFE.

Fix your sarcasm meter then read it again.........

[denAirwalkerrr]

Ahh Screw it - WATCH THIS, on 14 December 2018 - 12:59 AM, said:

Fix your sarcasm meter then read it again.........

Sorry I forgot sarcasm can exist here lol

[RJF Volkodav]

I hope this can demonstrate you the difference better

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 14 December 2018 - 01:21 AM.

[RJF Volkodav]

What this change does is direct nerfing of heat capacity for all of the meks which is directly influencing every build ingame and as long as it is much more dangerous to get shutdown while brawling than poking it is a direct nerf of brawling meks.

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 14 December 2018 - 01:35 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Does the change make the game more fun..... If no then do something else. Seems they are still shootings for arbitrary balance ideas instead of fun game play.

[Tarl Cabot]

If PGI keeps it, it does mean that the dissipation penalty could be dropped from its current 40% to a lower percentage.

• 30 heat scale + 20 pts from 10 engine HS (non-omni) = 50 overall baseline
  
• Currently 50 - cXL/LFE ST destroyed 8 pts (40% or 4 HS) = 42 equates to 16% removal of top of heat bar.
  
• 50 - ST destroyed (20% or 2 HS) 4 pts = 46 equates to 8 % removal of top of heat bar.

And that would allow them to bring in isXL and have it survive loss of ST but when that happens and if set at 40%...

But it does make sense. The Heat Bar is used for heat capacity. The issue is that it is done in a percentage mode. The next option is for PGI to indicate and display a percentage cut off point of where it would be if a ST w/non-STD engine would be. That would give a visual of where one is sitting at. At range and just beginning to trade, no issue to exceed but if severely damaged.....

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 14 December 2018 - 04:33 AM.

[Christophe Ivanov]

Humm, I see no benefit at all for this change. Granted, I have not played in awhile as I simply do not believe in paying real money for things that keep on getting worse for game play. If PGI wants me to play and pay, then take this back to before the engine desynch.

[Racerxintegra2k]

XX Sulla XX, on 14 December 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

Does the change make the game more fun..... If no then do something else. Seems they are still shootings for arbitrary balance ideas instead of fun game play.

I had a guy that worked for me that would break things when no one was looking so he could be the one to fix them some time later. Everyone thought he was a good guy, until we found out what he was doing.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Change the heat scale UI to be in numbers instead of percentages and to be consistent throughout the match. When you lose a heatsink or capacity, mark it off on the UI so we can actually see what is happening. People have been confused about heat from the beginning of time. This should make it more clear in terms of numbers.

[SlippnGriff]

Horrible change to fix the heatbug if it did. Just patch heatbug and revert this bad st heatloss change no one wanted or asked for

Edited by SlippnGriff, 22 December 2018 - 12:44 PM.

[Grus]

justcallme A S H, on 13 December 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

Then actually playing a single game with this new torso loss / heat spike mechanic last night. Ridiculous. You are essentially being punished for shooting (high on heat) and rewarded for being passive (low on heat).

It also seems to be inconsistent amounts of heat spike when losing a torso. There are things that affect it like map, mech, engine, how many H/S's you lose when torso is taken off etc etc. A whole entirely new bunch of variables people have to account for that are overly complicated.

Once again this is not doing anything positive for fun gameplay IMO.

Well thats one way to inc ttk... make it more of a drawback to shoot than to burn a arty/airstrike...

[WrathOfDeadguy]

The change doesn't even make sense. It's unintuitive. Here's why.

If your 'Mech is already dissipating heat at its full normal rate before ST loss, it stands to reason that the heat load has already been distributed across all of your heat sinks (otherwise there'd be a ramp-up in cooling efficiency as the heat load spreads across all of your sinks... but that isn't modeled, so we can assume that the load is spread as it is generated)... which means that blowing off however many of them are associated with that ST should mean that whatever heat they're in the process of dissipating should also be lost. There would therefore be no net change in your heat level at all as a percentage of your total threshold, only a reduction in future capacity and dissipation. Your heat bar should not suddenly leap up, as it does now; nor should it suddenly drop as it did before.

"But external sinks don't add as much capacity anymore!"

So? The sinks are dissipating the heat, therefore the heat is in the sinks. That's how heat sinks work, no matter what technobabble is invented to describe them or how the math under the hood is handled for game balance. A device cannot dissipate heat not present in said device- we're talking about basic thermodynamic law now. Thus, when the heat sink is blown off, the heat in that sink exits the system with it- or at least, it should in any system that makes sense. Right now we have heat that magically leaps back into the 'Mech as the destroyed side torso falls away from it. That's silly.

Plus, it's just another tripping hazard for whatever trickle of newbies we're still getting, and another frustrating complication to make more veterans decide it's time to move on. It's easy enough just to carry a coolshot to pop in the event of side torso loss while riding the heat curve (and, really, if you're losing a third of your 'Mech, you're probably heavily engaged and... riding the heat curve, just like you know your opponent will be)... but you shouldn't need to carry a consumable as a reactionary measure to this new "gotcha!" mechanic.