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Side Torso Heat Spike ?


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#41 Remover of Obstacles

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 11:00 AM

View PostRJF Volkodav, on 13 December 2018 - 11:55 PM, said:

I wonder if all theese "tabletop specialists" ever played it. Lossing side torso on cXL or LFE gives you heat buildup of 10 + heatsink loss (0-8) pts which means that if you fire this turn in a limits of your heatsinks you will rarely even get a chance to shutdown. Tabletop mechanics allowing you to survive ST loss in a most of the cases, but this one here makes any mech using heat generating weapons die on ST loss instantly almost every time.

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What kind of game developer lets this go through to live?

#42 Koniving

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 11:08 AM

View PostRJF Volkodav, on 14 December 2018 - 12:58 AM, said:


Lets take a horse in a vacuum. Read the rules first please and play tabletop. Noone plays with "20 units of unsunk heat" this mek is normally almost dead already because it doesnt moves. I'm laughing about guys discussing tabletop which they never even tried.

MWO heat mechanics is different to tabletop so you are wrong when trying to adapt MWO situation to tabletop. Noone building up heat without any serious need in tabletop and MWO heat scale bar is totally different than what you see on a picture above. In fact MWO heat bar is a heat cap of heatsinks only and not having any builup heat bar which we have in tabletop (do you see any moving speed influence or shutdowns while you are not getting 100% filled bar?). So adapting MWO heatbar to tabletop assume that you heat buildup for every moment is 0. This having a 0 buildup and firing weapons which are not building up heat over the heatsinks limit gives you maximum buildup of 15-20 in tabletop. Or in that case lets switch to tabletop model and give us a heatsink cap + heat bar with penalties and then you will see a true "alpha warriors" able to fire twice more weapons than today.

Like lets take a HBR with 25DHS (50CAP) + heatbar (30CAP) and we'll see what happens.


I have. In fact I play more Megamek than mwo and anyone can have 20 unsunk heat. Its quite simple fire more than you can sink.

Reach 20 heat that couldn't be sunk due to firing them again and again without managing your heat. This is even easier to do in 2.5 second time slices. Its easy to do in regular tabletop too unless you cheese build your way out of it but even then mwo cheese builds in Solaris Vii's time slices still overheat horribly.

Since we are converting to real time its that much more valid. You have 66% heat, lose the side torso and now you shut down in both mwo and BT. From what I seen mwo is actually more lenient as you have to be even higher on the heat bar for it to actually affect you.

So which rules would you like?

Solaris VII?
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Despite the 4 times simplicity to get 1/4th the time slice, if you undo it all and just divide by 4 you have basic tabletop rules (plus the ability to shoot up between 2 and 5 times in a 10 second time slice).
(Edit to clarify here, you either divide all the heat by 4 getting you basic tabletop rules [and times 4 on the time scale] and from there you can divide everything by 4 [including cooling power] to get Solaris VII rules again. Solaris VII tries to get around dividing heatsinks by 4 when dividing the time scale by 4 in order to supply a simple "just everything static times 4 and here's a reference sheet" since your heatsink count can vary but the heat of weapons are static. Long and short take basic tabletop rules and divide by 4 to get 2.5 second time slices. Take basic tabletop rules and divide by 10 to get second by second real time. From there you can have fun and play those out mathmatically to see what real time would do to a mech and you'd see exactly why the heat scale of Battletech is done with percentage chances of shutdown and ammo explosions... its quite simple, at each point its easier and easier to hit the special numbers 28 and 30 respectively at any given second depending on how your pilot fires. From there, the rest represents luck that your pilot spaces his shots out...or the lack of luck and tendency to alpha strike when he shouldn't.)

Or the basic rules of you establish your movement, select your targets to fire, add up your heat and then subtract for 10 seconds (or break it down by the second, where you can see the punishments at different units of heat make sense in the grand scheme because if you take, for example, an Awesome 8Q or a Masakari Prime, you can split the exact second you fire each ER PPC, and see that at 15 unsunk, etc. heat, the chance of hitting 30 heat at once [100% heat] brings you into potential shutdown territory even though you'd cool it all off before the turn is over. The harder the dice roll, the harder it is to mathmatically avoid touching 30 heat when counting up heat and cooling heat by the second. For ammo, the magic number that gets harder to avoid is 93% heat aka 28 at any given time.)

I even gave you a by-the-rules example of how you could get the results of a side torso loss Clan XL shutdown taken specifically from a Megamek match between me and Raven in which my Masakari (Warhawk) was shut down by a side torso loss in a digital facsimile of tabletop. As you can imagine it being a shutdown, and the calculated heat before committing to the action, I expected I would have had only 10 heat left unsunk (aka left over) after firing that hefty volley of fire as opposed to the surprising results (I didn't expect to lose my side torso). So instead, I wind up shut down and dead by engine loss on the next turn because I lost that side torso, getting that +10 heat in the same turn as everything else as the heat phase is calculated after the weapons damage and melee damage phases.

I can provide you with a screen cap of the rule book from everything as far back as the Original BattleDroids up to a beta version of Alpha Strike. I can't provide you with Alpha Strike itself because after reading the beta it became clear that it was dumbed down quite a bit with the realism sapped in much the same of the way "Clix" was. Which is good for bringing in new people. But then we'd have what MechAssault is to Mechwarrior 3.
Have you seen the latest Solaris VII? Its more of a trading card game with mechs having a heat limit of 1 to 5.
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To humor your argument, however without getting into cheese central because MWO's current max practical heat threshold is less than 60, which is currently less than MW4, but still almost 20 more than MW3 + Pirate's Moon and almost 30 more than MW3 which is the exact representation of tabletop heat in a Mechwarrior game minus the penalties. It is quite punishing however it was still cheesed.

Again assuming no movement (in what MWO situation are you NOT moving?), and you have an HBR (what variant or weapons here?) + 25 DHS, you have a real time heat cap of 30, a 10 second heat cap of 30 heat + 50 units of cooling (meaning you still have to fire your weapons at different parts of the enemy's body seemingly at random but this is actually factoring in enemy movement, your movement or lack thereof, enemy attempts to defend by deflection or dodging, etc., ever noticed your weapons aren't hitting one spot in tabletop? There's a reason for that, simulating real time dodging, defense and counter attack in as simple a way as possible).

So in theory you could generate 80 units of heat in 10 seconds, and against the heat scale as long as you don't hit 30 heat at any given SPECIFIC SECOND you don't shut down. You cool 50.. And actually guess what, you've got 30 heat unsunk.. you just shut down. Truth be told breaking it down by the second, you'd never be able to avoid hitting 30 heat at a given second anyway even if you did by some miracle manage to last the full first 9 seconds first.

If you add MaxTech to the mix, you've also melted up to zero heatsinks in this phenomenal cheese build.
But, since you've cheesed it to MWO's astronomical proportions in MWO before the new skill tree where MWO could have a threshold of up to 120+ if you're Clan and 100-ish if you're IS, then yeah you wouldn't have shut down. Note that's factoring cold environments' + 25% threshold.

However, MWO's current system, cheesed to the max, doesn't let you get above (I'd have to double check but I believe the cheesiest thing I got was between 68 and 69 and that's 1 weapon, boating as many heatsinks as possible, maximizing the skill tree's heat containment + environment), your cheesed tabletop example of slapping on excessive amount of heat thresholds because you don't feel like playing fair basically couldn't happen in MWO either.

If you were to use the Extended Heat Scale and get up to 50, yeah you wouldn't shut down. It'd be easy to avoid hitting 50 at any given second, however that's a crutch for those who can't even handle MW2's and M3 + Pirate's Moon expansion of 40 threshold. At least it didn't go the full cheese of MW4.

MWO's current system is 30 base + (2*10) + #[beyond the first 10]*0.5 + (quirks% + skill tree% + environment%) = your current threshold.
The best tabletop comparison is therefore the Extended Heat Bar.
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You will notice if you take this extended heat effects table and divide it by 1/3rd, you'll get the original 30 threshold and adjusting the scale to be the same height, identical placement to the original 30 heatscale. This is basically a bandaid for kids that can't handle their heat, as well as used in post dark ages BT. (I don't go beyond dark ages, simply don't care).

If you were to run a 10 DHS Clan mech with a Clan XL, get to greater than 80% heat and then lose your side torso, you'll get identical effects in Tabletop as you will in MWO.
(Edited correction from assumed 70% to tested 80% aka 40 heat out of 50. If you're at 80% heat at the instant you lose the side torso in MWO on Forest Colony with 10 DHS (and not standing in water including the waterfall) you will shut down, the same is true in tabletop mathematically.)

Thus, it is perfectly fair and right to compare the two for this one instance.

(You also now know exactly how low your heat needs to be to avoid shutdown, keep it under 80% for whatever build you have, factoring of course the lost heatsinks as well, and you won't shut down. There's your free tip.)

Also worth noting, re-reading the latest patch notes, every heatsink lost will reduce your overall max heat, as in both Battletech and 2012 MWO. This is perhaps the greatest news I've ever seen as I've noticed for years that losing heatsinks stopped mattering. This means losing your heatsinks will actually affect you and this is perhaps why you are crying your tears of saltiness. Because losing heatsinks actually matters again. (Now maybe MWO has a shot of actually being an E-sport...not gonna get my hopes up there).

Should MWO run something more of a simulator for the heat system? Absolutely. Does it? no. Should it account for heat pulled into the heatsinks though not yet expelled? It should, but it doesn't because its simply a game. Its source material didn't for simplicity, MWO doesn't because its complicated enough.

However most of the balance issues are actually stemming from PGI's disregard to tabletop as opposed to its adherence to it. Everything from "ECM is overpowered and needs nerfs" to Long Tom Nuclear Missiles (1390 as PGI's set max damage for being in the a 180 meter epicenter? Long Tom's max damage for being in the center of the strike was 30 damage split across the body in units of 5. Even if you doubled that it'd only be 60, and the overall damage of the 270 meter radius was only 520 not freaking 1390 per mech) have all been because PGI strayed from the source material to make up their own stuff. Twin AC/20s needing ghost heat? That's pretty simple, PGI made Rifles and called them Autocannons.

But hey, what can you do but fuss? This game stopped being a simulator long ago and the moment it tries, your tears soar up because your skill is inconvenienced by PGI's first step toward making this a little more realistic.

Truth be told, having lost a third of your engine in the real world...shutting down would be the least of your worries.

Edited by Koniving, 16 December 2018 - 12:26 PM.


#43 Kroete

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 11:12 AM

View PostWrathOfDeadguy, on 16 December 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

So? The sinks are dissipating the heat, therefore the heat is in the sinks. That's how heat sinks work, no matter what technobabble is invented to describe them or how the math under the hood is handled for game balance. A device cannot dissipate heat not present in said device- we're talking about basic thermodynamic law now. Thus, when the heat sink is blown off, the heat in that sink exits the system with it- or at least, it should in any system that makes sense. Right now we have heat that magically leaps back into the 'Mech as the destroyed side torso falls away from it. That's silly.

A pc with a normal heatsink and fan would match your example,
the heat is in the heatsink and if you remove it you will also remove the heat in the sink,
but our heatsinks are not glued to the weapons.

A water cooled pc is more matching if you try to explain heattransfair in a mech,
the heat is in the water, its not gone if the radiator or fan is broken.

But it would not make the water hotter if no new heat would come,
it would only take longer to cool down without the radiator.

Edited by Kroete, 16 December 2018 - 11:17 AM.


#44 Moadebe

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 11:56 AM

Well, I must admit that this is one change that can and will irritate not only myself but others. I actually like the heat cap being shortened with the loss of a ST...THAT part I think is ok. Not to mention I actually DO like the concept of "Hey I see a mech with an open ST* ... *shoots and destroys the ST and notices mech shut down....*

I do like that concept in that it gives a bit of a tactical advantage to PAY ATTENTION to the enemy mechs status and go for its apparent weaknesses.

HOWEVER, it is not implemented right in its current iteration. Here is a PRIME example of WHY i say that.

https://clips.twitch...KuduShazBotstix
(sorry for the random banter in the middle of it but yeah I think this proves a point here )

First off. Me shutting down was MY OWN FAULT. I made a bad...BAD mistake (had forgotten i had changed the weapons around and wasn't accustomed to the heat spike I had previously hit myself with.)

I shut down from my own dumbness. The problem comes when I see the startup animation kick in and suddenly my side torso is gone and IMMEDIATELY I shut down again....then im destroyed from an alpha into my rear CT.

I didn't get a chance to move. I didn't get a chance to fire....just mid animation shut down again. THIS is not ok.

What should happen is I should at least get a chance to power back up and at least DO SOMETHING....anything.

I honestly like the concept and direction of the change. However, not its current form. If it was treated like flamers where you can only go to that redline and it wont over heat you unless you use something that generates heat...I would be ok with it. Hell I think the last iteration of heatsink and heat scale were something similar. You lost a ST and your heating ability was just affected (lower cap and dissipation rate.)

Basically what I am saying is that a ST loss shouldnt shut you down right off the bat. It should at least spike your heat to the red line and if you are mid firing or you jj or use a heat generating weapon....THEN it shuts you down....like how a flamer will spike your heat and if you fire then shut down. Until you do fire a weapon you are severe red line with reduced heat dissipation and are in trouble, but you can STILL MOVE and do SOMETHING. Then if you fire and overheat its on you.

I know the last system was "sorta" like that, but not exactly. All I am saying is it felt like being "stunlocked" in an MMO and if there is one thing that will take a lot of fun out of a game it is getting killed with no control of your character due to the actions of others.

Just my two cents. Hope this reaches the right ears....

#45 justcallme A S H

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 12:55 PM

View PostMoadebe, on 16 December 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

https://clips.twitch...KuduShazBotstix
(sorry for the random banter in the middle of it but yeah I think this proves a point here )

I know the last system was "sorta" like that, but not exactly. All I am saying is it felt like being "stunlocked" in an MMO and if there is one thing that will take a lot of fun out of a game it is getting killed with no control of your character due to the actions of others



Exactly why this change is being so poorly / negatively received.

And yet another example of being 'stunlocked' in MWO due to this change. This change you are dead. 8 seconds of being unable to move, that is not OK.

You make a mistake you are dead. At least before this you made a mistake like that you stood a chance of shielding/twisting/fighting on/being saved by team etc.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 16 December 2018 - 12:55 PM.


#46 Moadebe

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 01:06 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 December 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:



Exactly why this change is being so poorly / negatively received.

And yet another example of being 'stunlocked' in MWO due to this change. This change you are dead. 8 seconds of being unable to move, that is not OK.

You make a mistake you are dead. At least before this you made a mistake like that you stood a chance of shielding/twisting/fighting on/being saved by team etc.


My point exactly as well. I think its known well enough that I tend to try to see the reason and logic behind a particular change via PGI's eyes, but this one...I can see the DIRECTION they were going with it. I just cant agree with how it is currently implemented. I cannot stand game mechanics that remove all control of your character for such a length of time that it allows your human played opponent to kill you while you are at full health. (Yes I know headshots and backstabs are a thing, but at least you are moving and its generally just a good/lucky shot/maneuver that allowed your death to happen. This in the right hands can be exploited.)

Example (something that I was attempting to test, but im either not good enough or distracted): Say a Pirahna (already a problem mech but that is a different debate) has flamers and micro lasers combo. Come in behind an assault, flame it to shut down (various reasons...just say it happens), shoot ST twice and while he is starting up shuts down again, hit other side torso.....dead. (before anyone says "just aim rear CT to begin with"...various reasons ....however this is merely a "what if" scenario)

Is that in particular hard......yeah....it can be. Could a top player pull it off consistently.... maybe....i say probably. Is that a "only case" scenario...no...I could probably come up with endless ways. Regardless...not a good thing IMO.

Edited by Moadebe, 16 December 2018 - 01:13 PM.


#47 MechTech Dragoon

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 01:19 PM

The stunlock problem of the change could be mitigated by reducing base startup/shutdown times. This at-least would give you a chance to override and run/twist in those situations, instead of being stun-locked. Your still taking damage from being above 100%...but its better than being dead guaranteed.

While I think that losing a ST should reduce your heat cap on those engines, perhaps its a little too steep? But it is 20% of your engine, so it makes sense. Perhaps a loss of 10-15% of your capacity, instead of 20.

Or, they could cause percentage of heat capacity lost to be lost gradually rather than instantly?
Say 2 seconds
Example for that would be well say your heat cap is 50, dissipation 2.2, your side torso gets lost, you lose 10 heat cap over 2 seconds, so....if you were at 80%, and you lost a side torso, itd look like this

Second 1-37.8/45-84%
Second 2-35.6/40-89%

Would still give you time to slam that override key even at 90%
Second 1-42.8/45
Second 2-40.6/40

It'd also be nice to be able to see how far exactly over 100% you are, but thats UI additions so :/

Edited by MechTech Dragoon, 16 December 2018 - 01:47 PM.


#48 MechTech Dragoon

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 01:26 PM

Flamers also need to be looked into with this change, I've been using them quite a bit before this patch but, its a little funny to cook someone to 90% in 3 seconds and then blow off a side torso. You heat em up....they fire....they go over 100%, likely to 110-120% you take off a side torso...now they are at 150% , allot of times you dont even have to keep shooting them after that, they just cook :/

Not that I don't find it hilarious, buuuuuut i feel dirty

Edited by MechTech Dragoon, 16 December 2018 - 01:26 PM.


#49 justcallme A S H

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 02:23 PM

View PostMoadebe, on 16 December 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:


My point exactly as well. I think its known well enough that I tend to try to see the reason and logic behind a particular change via PGI's eyes, but this one...I can see the DIRECTION they were going with it. I just cant agree with how it is currently implemented. I cannot stand game mechanics that remove all control of your character for such a length of time that it allows your human played opponent to kill you while you are at full health.


Yeah I don't disagree with the direction it was headed at all and understand the reasoning as an attempt to fix the bug, even if the bug wasn't fixed at all.

It is just the implementation that is absolutely short sighted in this instance and does nothing to offer enjoyable gameplay - this is actually making it extremely painful and overtly punishing.

View PostMechTech Dragoon, on 16 December 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

Flamers also need to be looked into with this change, I've been using them quite a bit before this patch but, its a little funny to cook someone to 90% in 3 seconds and then blow off a side torso. You heat em up....they fire....they go over 100%, likely to 110-120% you take off a side torso...now they are at 150% , allot of times you dont even have to keep shooting them after that, they just cook :/

Not that I don't find it hilarious, buuuuuut i feel dirty


Flamers are getting a rework as per Chris's discussion with a few of us @ Mechcon (I really need to type that up and post it, ill do that this week).

Have to wait and see what the eventuation of that is - don't have details at this stage PGI definately keen to adjust Flamers and everyone agreed.

#50 John Bronco

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 02:25 PM

Stunlock is bad gameplay

#51 justcallme A S H

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 02:44 PM

View PostMechTech Dragoon, on 16 December 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

Spoiler



Do. Not. Want.
Just making things more complicated. Maybe start a POLL again?

The fix is rather simple as outlined earlier.

#52 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 03:42 PM

No matter if one thinks this change was good, bad or something between. it was a major change that they playerbase wasn’t really prepared for. The amount of “suicides” i have witnessed in match exploded (pun intended) with this change. Run hot fighting and lose a ST....well you are dead. Sure it will bring back more IS XL builds (on hot mechs, where a ST loss means your dead or super-gimped anyway) and it will make standards more worth considering (dual HG will be even stronger now...relatively...an unintended consequence if there ever was one). Plus. it will be a c-bill sink....which PGI is likely in favor of. Anyway, being that they just went up on the heat of several popular Clan lasers (and IS Erlarge) this probably should have been tested by the players before going live.

#53 Acersecomic

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 04:10 PM

I'd post my negative opinion on this here, but it really doesn't matter since PGI doesn't listen to anything.

#54 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 04:19 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 December 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:



Exactly why this change is being so poorly / negatively received.

And yet another example of being 'stunlocked' in MWO due to this change. This change you are dead. 8 seconds of being unable to move, that is not OK.

You make a mistake you are dead. At least before this you made a mistake like that you stood a chance of shielding/twisting/fighting on/being saved by team etc.


....Hell going to say it. if ya mech has a isXL ya autodead regardless of where you are on the heatscale........

But it does open up the door of reducing the percentage, keep the 40% heat dissipation penalty but reduce the Heat Bar loss to 20% (10 engine slots - 2 engine slots = 8 engine slots left) while also allowing the isXL to be brought in to survive the loss of a side torso...

#55 MechTech Dragoon

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 05:26 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 December 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:


Do. Not. Want.
Just making things more complicated. Maybe start a POLL again?

The fix is rather simple as outlined earlier.


Its really not complicated, an inherent increased disadvantage is kept on LFE in the form of heat as per the current patch, however maximum reduction is delivered over time instead of instantly. Instant overheat is too punishing in the same way that instant coolshots were too rewarding.


View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 December 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Flamers are getting a rework as per Chris's discussion with a few of us @ Mechcon (I really need to type that up and post it, ill do that this week).

Have to wait and see what the eventuation of that is - don't have details at this stage PGI definately keen to adjust Flamers and everyone agreed.


Finally, been wanting flamers to be looked at for awhile.

#56 Remover of Obstacles

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 05:56 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 16 December 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:


It is just the implementation that is absolutely short sighted in this instance and does nothing to offer enjoyable gameplay - this is actually making it extremely painful and overtly punishing.



So the goal was to increase time to kill and it is now easier to one shot mechs at 60% heat...

#57 justcallme A S H

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 08:02 PM

View PostRemover of Obstacles, on 16 December 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:


So the goal was to increase time to kill and it is now easier to one shot mechs at 60% heat...


Well it needs to be closer to 80-85%, and depends on the players skill tree (another total variable).

But yeah, basically it's pants on head crazy.

#58 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 10:17 PM

View PostRemover of Obstacles, on 16 December 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:


So the goal was to increase time to kill and it is now easier to one shot mechs at 60% heat...


Welcome to isXL arena Posted Image

Thinking about it, Russ asked, "how does it feel" when they introduced the engine heat dissipation @ 20%, how would have that have been received if PGI had set it up to take it off the top instead of the bottom? A number of players had noted it did not feel like it was enough with the original setup. I doubt we would have seen it increased to 40%. And would have it set it up to alter the isXL behavior? PGI has shown that eventually they are able to separate different values for an item, such as when they started with Heatsinks.

And to build on the bringing the engines inline, bringing heat damage equivalency for all 3 of those engines, with the new setup if the LFE heat penalty percentage is at least 50% of the isXL, with the isXL surviving a ST loss, it would definitely give a reason to equip a LFE for specific builds.

10% = 1 HS LFE
20% = 2 HS cXL
30% = 3 HS either 30/40 of these for isXL
40% = 4 HS current cXL/LFE

Just to be clear 2 out of 10 engine slots for cXL/LFE (heavier though) is 20% while isXL is 3 out of 12 engine slots is 25%.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 December 2018 - 10:25 PM.


#59 Khobai

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 10:51 PM

View PostMechTech Dragoon, on 16 December 2018 - 05:26 PM, said:

Instant overheat is too punishing in the same way that instant coolshots were too rewarding.


by that same logic instant death on ISXL would also be too punishing. because death is way worse than shutdown.

so are you saying ISXL should survive side torso blowout?

I mean Id be okay with that. But it would require seriously buffing LFE and STD engines

thats the direction PGI shouldve gone in instead of nerfing CXL/LFE.

Edited by Khobai, 16 December 2018 - 10:56 PM.


#60 The pessimistic optimist

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 03:15 AM

Oh no the game is asking me to manage my heat what will I ever do....





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