152 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

thievingmagpi, on 18 December 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

So when you said this:




You think I feel different? How in the world would you ever take away that I think LRMs are in need of anything beyond a major rework?

Because of YOUR VITRIOL TOWARDS LRM USERS.
And "MechDads".

Edited by HammerMaster, 18 December 2018 - 04:51 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

So I don't like LRMs... but I'm... fine with them?????

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 18 December 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

So I don't like LRMs... but I'm... fine with them?????

Find a new game to play if yea don't like LRMs there staple Battletech weapons http://www.sarna.net...g_Range_Missile this game is based on that get over it.

[HammerMaster]

LRM users SIr.
I'm done with this t i t for t a t.
Constructive. Not Grief.

[The pessimistic optimist]

HammerMaster, on 18 December 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

LRM users SIr.
I'm done with this t i t for t a t.
Constructive. Not Grief.

Not grief just pointing out if yea don't like LRMs yea came to the wrong game. I don't think pointing out LRM are major weapon system have always bin a big part of Battletech and Mechwarrior so yea no grief facts.

Edited by SirSmokes, 18 December 2018 - 05:17 PM.

[HammerMaster]

[redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 27 March 2019 - 04:02 PM.
nonconstructive/picking fights

[The6thMessenger]

FRAGTAST1C, on 17 December 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

To the guy comparing LRMs and AC2s or any other weapon system based on direct LOS, I have to simply laugh. Even as a newbie, I know how flawed that comparison is. The moment you break LOS or simply move unpredictably, the AC2 slug simply doesn't hit your enemy whereas the LRMs continue to track and more often than not, hit with 100% accuracy.

AC2s actually require you to aim while having LOS. LRMs require you to place your reticle and look at it until it turns red without LOS.

Not to mention that the COF encompasses a larger area with respect to distance, in addition of the target moving slower within your field of vision. So while direct-fire needs to be pin-point, it's actually a hell of a lot easier to maintain the target within 25 degrees of your reticle the farther they are.

[justcallme A S H]

SirSmokes, on 17 December 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

No I could really be a lot better if I wanted to put time in but I play to have fun and your try hards because you care so much about your stats so much so that any little thing that hurts your stats makes you whine like babies. If I really cared about that I would play the game differently. I would only take meta mechs I would only play with people that are same skill level. But I like to have fun taking silly mech builds for fun or playing with lower skill player for fun. So yea try hards. Also I am not a bad player at all;)

LOL...

Someone has an delusionally high opinion of themselves.

SirSmokes, on 17 December 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

Try bum rushing there asses with 12 of these CRB-27 and shoot for legs see how they like that;)

A tactic that I can tell you from a lot of experience, will not work against a good team.

LRM DPS is simply too high and will bust through an AMS bubble like that by pure brute force due to the insane DPS they have.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 18 December 2018 - 07:12 AM, said:

read. again

they upped the ammo per bin a few patches ago (also the speed and downed the heat). with intent.
they ain't gonna roll that back into the opposite direction.

Yep... Another buff that LRMs did not need. The day that came out I dropped 2T ammo of my LRM boats and added two DHS.

What happened then? Even more insane DPS...

[The pessimistic optimist]

justcallme A S H, on 18 December 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

LOL...

Someone has an delusionally high opinion of themselves.



A tactic that I can tell you from a lot of experience, will not work against a good team.

LRM DPS is simply too high and will bust through an AMS bubble like that by pure brute force due to the insane DPS they have.

Well for one thing they have too much ammo cut that down buff AMS some maybe.

Edited by SirSmokes, 18 December 2018 - 05:46 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 18 December 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

what the heck is all the talk about debuffing lurms?

they buffed them three times in a row, with some minor setbacks to the targeting reticule later.
they did that on purpose.

you and me may not like it, but they surely aren't going the opposite way, now.

The issue is though after Heat, Velocity and Ammo buffs - LRMs have gone from a OK place to a stupid one. This is why the Artemis change and tighter reticule was brought in. One was to reduce the effectiveness on SSRM against lights (and LRM in general) but it produed another effect I don't think PGI forsaw - Artemis became wasted tonnage on a LRM equipped mech. So what did people do as a result of the Artemis change?

Take it off and add more DHS. This is again further increasing the sustained and burst DPS of the weapon because you can basically alpha a cLRM60-80 and put down 80pts of DMG from basically 950m and just eat the ghost heat for 3 alpha's

OR

You can alternate first and simply win the attrition of armour war and fire, almost, indefinately.

The crux of it is if LRMs received none of the buffs they have in 2018 they would be fine right now as they were largely fine in 2017. Then we also wouldn't need PGI nuking Artemis, angle of flight or any other ways to try and bring them back inline as well as hitting NARC extremely heavily. Have any of the above de-buffs worked? No. Not one bit.

[The pessimistic optimist]

justcallme A S H, on 18 December 2018 - 05:53 PM, said:

The issue is though after Heat, Velocity and Ammo buffs - LRMs have gone from a OK place to a stupid one. This is why the Artemis change and tighter reticule was brought in. One was to reduce the effectiveness on SSRM against lights (and LRM in general) but it produed another effect I don't think PGI forsaw - Artemis became wasted tonnage on a LRM equipped mech. So what did people do as a result of the Artemis change?

Take it off and add more DHS. This is again further increasing the sustained and burst DPS of the weapon because you can basically alpha a cLRM60-80 and put down 80pts of DMG from basically 950m and just eat the ghost heat for 3 alpha's

OR

You can alternate first and simply win the attrition of armour war and fire, almost, indefinately.

The crux of it is if LRMs received none of the buffs they have in 2018 they would be fine right now as they were largely fine in 2017. Then we also wouldn't need PGI nuking Artemis, angle of flight or any other ways to try and bring them back inline as well as hitting NARC extremely heavily. Have any of the above de-buffs worked? No. Not one bit.

Things need a rework to make them more lore accurate less spammy and well fun to use.

[justcallme A S H]

SirSmokes, on 18 December 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

Well for one thing they have too much ammo cut that down buff AMS some maybe.

Reality is that won't change much. One or two DHS doesn't count for the weapon baseline heat scale or velocity. The two core things that have made them ridiculous in 2018.

Also Ghost Heat needs to be upped for 3 or more LRM15/LRM20 launchers, that is one additional option but not properly addressing it when the baseline numbers are the problem.

Lawrence a few pages back was not wrong in saying how easyit is to crank out 1k damage matches in LRM boats. It is incredibly easy, that would never be a thing in any well balanced game.

SirSmokes, on 18 December 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

Things need a rework to make them more lore accurate less spammy and well fun to use.

TT LORE can go in the bin when it comes to a FPS balance.

The values and mechanics can't always be used. MWO already breaks a lot of those anyway so there is no need to follow it now.

[The pessimistic optimist]

justcallme A S H, on 18 December 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

Reality is that won't change much. One or two DHS doesn't count for the weapon baseline heat scale or velocity. The two core things that have made them ridiculous in 2018.

Also Ghost Heat needs to be upped for 3 or more LRM15/LRM20 launchers, that is one additional option but not properly addressing it when the baseline numbers are the problem.

Lawrence a few pages back was not wrong in saying how easyit is to crank out 1k damage matches in LRM boats. It is incredibly easy, that would never be a thing in any well balanced game.



TT LORE can go in the bin when it comes to a FPS balance.

The values and mechanics can't always be used. MWO already breaks a lot of those anyway so there is no need to follow it now.

YES!! Someone who gets it I have always said starting with table top values was a mistake ok we can do business. Your right yea can't take rules made for turn based dice game shoe horn them in to FPS. What they needed to do was ask what were those number are trying to simulate.

Edited by SirSmokes, 18 December 2018 - 06:07 PM.

[thievingmagpi]

SirSmokes, on 18 December 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

YES!! Someone who gets it I have always said starting with table top values was a mistake ok we can do business.

This shouldn't be a surprise really. You won't find many people in favour of TT rules in MWO, let alone any of the nast META TRASH TRYHARDS.

[The pessimistic optimist]

thievingmagpi, on 18 December 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

This shouldn't be a surprise really. You won't find many people in favour of TT rules in MWO, let alone any of the nast META TRASH TRYHARDS.

Problem was they just lifted the numbers that's it at the start. So LRM are the left over off that sorry to say...point being things need work to be well better.

Edited by SirSmokes, 18 December 2018 - 06:11 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Almost everyone's saying the same thing but at the same time, so different

[Lykaon]

thievingmagpi, on 18 December 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

1) oh, I guess you don't understand what the term dodge means. okay.

2) they do not require los. next.

3) it doesn't need to be seen by you. nor do you need to aim at it, just at a large red box around its general vicinity. next.

4) if you're out of any and all los, you're not in the fight. next.

5) i'm attributing "magical powers" to rewarding low skill-floor.

6) lrms do not require skill to achieve near parity with actual skilled play

1 Dodge: I assume you mean evade? What more do you want? LRM projectile speed is slightly faster than a light breeze pushing a balloon towards you AND...AND...AND you get a warning at the time those slow moving projectiles are launched. If you can not manage to dodge all if not MOST of the first volley in a moderately speedy mech then you are probably

A: a total moron
B: have already chose poorly in you possitioning and LRMs are probably the LEAST efficent means of wasting your out of possition arse.
C: are playing on one of the very rare maps where cover is sparse (essentially Polar or Alpine)

2 LRMs do absolutely require that something has LOS on the target. mechs that are not withing LOS of something can not be locked onto this is solid unalterable mechanic of MWo. If your mech is being targeted by LRMs then SOMETHING has seen you.

3 Perhaps you do not understand the mechanics of how indirect fire works? here is a simple break down.

The player wishing to fire LRMs indirect must first achieve a lock on the desired target (targets that are not within LOS of a friendly source to the LRM launcher are not available to be locked on to.)

A friendly lock on source would be one of the following.

A teammate with direct LOS
A UAV with direct LOS and the target is within the UAV's radius of detection.
The target currently has an active NARC beacon attached that is not countered by ECM.

Without one of these sources there is no "large red box around its general vicinity" as you say.

4 I am frequently out of any and all LOS because mechs can not detect targets BEHIND them.

Mechs outside radar detection range are frequently within their own weapon range (ER-Lrg lasers/Gauss ER-PPC AC2s etc) yet are NOT available as lock on targets.

A mech that isn't basically immobile can poke and fire and return to cover well before any LRM volley can lock never mind actually travel to the target and hit them. Even the slowest of mechs can evade LRM barrages if the time to target is long enough. because RADAR DEPRIVATION is a real thing!

There was a time way back when where if a team wanted to shut down enemy LRMs they would actually do something about it during the match like maybe...I don't know like maybe charge the LRM carrier with a fast skirmisher under the LRM min. range.
I guess in this day and age rather than execute an effective strategy during a match we jump on a forum and complain about not doing anything effective during the match and instead demand any obsticals are simple altered to be easier to traverse.

Your points 5 and 6 have absolutely nothing to do with countering Novakaine's counter LRM suggestions and that was my whole point.

And largely opinions. I think spamming 60+ laser alphas covered with ECM is low skill but hey that's my opinion.

Here is my point in a nutshell...

Someone posts effective strategies to handle a precieved problem and then someone makes up a pile of non factual excuses as to why those effective strategies are not effective.

This is either ignorance or deliberate deception. If it's ignorance then research and learn. If it's deliberate deception then it's a good thing there are players who can point out B.S. when it's posted so the less informed players don't get duped.

[thievingmagpi]

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

1 Dodge: I assume you mean evade? What more do you want? LRM projectile speed is slightly faster than a light breeze pushing a balloon towards you AND...AND...AND you get a warning at the time those slow moving projectiles are launched. If you can not manage to dodge all if not MOST of the first volley in a moderately speedy mech then you are probably

A: a total moron
B: have already chose poorly in you possitioning and LRMs are probably the LEAST efficent means of wasting your out of possition arse.
C: are playing on one of the very rare maps where cover is sparse (essentially Polar or Alpine)

I can't stop laughing at this.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

2 LRMs do absolutely require that something has LOS on the target. mechs that are not withing LOS of something can not be locked onto this is solid unalterable mechanic of MWo. If your mech is being targeted by LRMs then SOMETHING has seen you.

Something, that's right. Next.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

3 Perhaps you do not understand the mechanics of how indirect fire works? here is a simple break down.

No, I understand.

I understand it's a trash tier system and a poor stand-in for skilled play.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

4 I am frequently out of any and all LOS because mechs can not detect targets BEHIND them.

Is that why you can barely break 60th percentile? Because you're always out of LOS? Do you really want to sit here and call me a moron?

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Mechs outside radar detection range are frequently within their own weapon range (ER-Lrg lasers/Gauss ER-PPC AC2s etc) yet are NOT available as lock on targets.

Mmm, these guys are my favourite light bait.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

A mech that isn't basically immobile can poke and fire and return to cover well before any LRM volley can lock never mind actually travel to the target and hit them.

What game have you been playing? Because it's not Mechwarrior Online. Is this what happens in Tier 5 games?

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Even the slowest of mechs can evade LRM barrages if the time to target is long enough. because RADAR DEPRIVATION is a real thing!

See above.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

There was a time way back when where if a team wanted to shut down enemy LRMs they would actually do something about it during the match like maybe...I don't know like maybe charge the LRM carrier with a fast skirmisher under the LRM min. range.
I guess in this day and age rather than execute an effective strategy during a match we jump on a forum and complain about not doing anything effective during the match and instead demand any obsticals are simple altered to be easier to traverse.

Please, go on, tell me more about effective strategy.

And then when you're done that, tell any number of the comp level players about effective strategy, including some of the best players in the game who have vocalized the same opinion that LRMS have an elevated skill floor.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

And largely opinions. I think spamming 60+ laser alphas covered with ECM is low skill but hey that's my opinion.

Well, as is demonstrable from this reply, you have exactly zero clue what anything close to skill is.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Here is my point in a nutshell...

Someone posts effective strategies to handle a precieved problem and then someone makes up a pile of non factual excuses as to why those effective strategies are not effective.

actually you were just wrong.

Lykaon, on 18 December 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

This is either ignorance or deliberate deception. If it's ignorance then research and learn. If it's deliberate deception then it's a good thing there are players who can point out B.S. when it's posted so the less informed players don't get duped.

Man you can't make this stuff up.

Buy me a vapor eagle pack and I'll cobble together for you an hour long compilation of players an order of magnitude better than I discussing the garbage nature of lrms and how they're contrary to good gameplay.

Edited by thievingmagpi, 18 December 2018 - 08:46 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

thievingmagpi, on 18 December 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

Buy me a vapor eagle pack and I'll cobble together for you an hour long compilation of players an order of magnitude better than I discussing the garbage nature of lrms and how they're contrary to good gameplay.

lol you'd get an hour from just myself doing it on stream I reckon, let alone anyone else

[The pessimistic optimist]

justcallme A S H, on 18 December 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

lol you'd get an hour from just myself doing it on stream I reckon, let alone anyone else

Then advocate to fix the damn think there not being taking them out of the game so they need to be fixed. If your going to start advocating to nerf them in to unless don't bother lets fix them.

Edited by SirSmokes, 18 December 2018 - 08:58 PM.