184 replies to this topic

[Gaussfather]

With the arrival of my Hatamotos and the new patch I noticed that the survivability advantage of an IS LE is practically negated for most builds and situations. In fact in one battle I activated my cool shot as my side torso was shot off, and watched the heat bar drop a bit and then slowly rise (I wasn't firing) until my mech exploded. Like most pilots I run with override on because the last thing you want to be is shutdown and a sitting duck when several enemy mechs are returning fire.

So basically if you are close to maximum heat when you lose an ST, which is often the case if you are engaged with the enemy, then you will probably die immediately from overheating with the new ST heat rules.

Which made me think, maybe I'm just better off running an XL and having the extra speed or weapon tonnage. The Hatamoto torso is XL friendly compared to many assaults so why not?

My experience so far is that I'm doing better with my XL versions than the LE versions in most quick play matches.

Anyone else going with XLs these days over LEs?

[Ilfi]

The heat penalty is hardly an excuse to downgrade your build. Adapt your play style. Just because your side popped doesn't mean you have to turn off override in open field -- you have plenty of time to dip into cover or cool off before that stripped ST pops.

[LordNothing]

maybe for energy centric builds, but for a more heat neutral build its still better to use the lfe. im probably going to use more xl engines (and in more mechs than just squirrels), but im still not sure that is going to be completely necessary. ive started to get in the habbit of firing off a cool shot when i loose an st, its saved my booty more than once.

[SlippnGriff]

Side torso loss heat spike change everyone hates. Its a horrible mechanic that needs to be reverted. Another thread already showed multiple twitch clips of streamers shutdown stun locked or no heat dissapation. Plus undo this awful mechanic pgi

[Grus]

"So basically if you are close to maximum heat when you lose an ST, which is often the case if you are engaged with the enemy, then you will probably die immediately from overheating with the new ST heat rules."

Clan XL says hi...

[Luminis]

Been thinking about that, too. The survivability advantage is certainly diminished and I most definitely am going to switch to XLs on a few hot builds. Not on Assaults, probably, but I do feel like the benefits of increased speed / cooling / firepower is going to be outweighing the ST survivability far more often than before the change.

That said, I still hope the change does get reverted or at least revised at some point in the near future.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

I don’t think PGI will reverse course on ST loss heat spike....maybe some tweaking, but I would be surprised if it was removed totally. The fact that the OP is asking this question is probably something PGI wants in the game (real trade offs between engine types....where you have to decide what disadvantages you want to deal with). I am not saying the game is more fun today than a month ago....pre-change. Some builds were definitely more fun before. However, I am also not personally annoyed by the change either, despite the dumb overheat deaths I see happening. So, I don’t care about this issue either way. It’s just a change (if they keep it in) that will make questions like these get asked, so I bet they keep it (at least mostly)

[Monkey Lover]

Change like this will just push me to stay more at range. Over the last year they have basically nerfed my brawling mechs to the point i don't want to use them.

[Koniving]

SlippnGriff, on 28 December 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

Side torso loss heat spike change everyone hates. Its a horrible mechanic that needs to be reverted. Another thread already showed multiple twitch clips of streamers shutdown stun locked or no heat dissapation. Plus undo this awful mechanic pgi

It needs to be adjusted to account for another change they did at the same time.

For the first time since January 2013, the loss of your heatsinks will affect your maximum heat threshold and cooling power for every heatsink destroyed when it is destroyed.
(Its in the same patchnotes in the same paragraph as the ST engine change).

When you lose the ST which takes away (what was it 20 to 40%?) of your base 10 in addition to losing another 5 to 9 heatsinks, the real hit isn't the loss of the base 10, but the combination of the two.

Even non-LE using mechs boating heatsinks will suffer dramatic heat changes after losing a large number of heatsinks such as a side torso, despite using a standard engine.


(Also I don't hate it, the game's finally getting to be fun again for the first time in many years. But the actual penalty needs to be adjusted to accommodate for the fact that heatsink loss matters now.)

[Gaussfather]

Ilfi, on 28 December 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

The heat penalty is hardly an excuse to downgrade your build. Adapt your play style. Just because your side popped doesn't mean you have to turn off override in open field -- you have plenty of time to dip into cover or cool off before that stripped ST pops.

I have to love the armchair QBing... and as I said, if I'm adding speed or weapons with the extra tonnage its not necessarily a downgrade to switch to an XL over an LE...

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 28 December 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

For the first time since January 2013, the loss of your heatsinks will affect your maximum heat threshold and cooling power for every heatsink destroyed when it is destroyed.

This is neither new nor a part of the December patch notes. This part has been working properly for the entirety of its inclusion in the game.

[Gaussfather]

Just to clarify, I'm not raging or hating the change. I would still use an LE or STD engine for playing Solaris for example. But in quick play speed and being able to take your enemy out quickly is a big factor in surviving a match. My observation is that I rarely survive long after losing a ST if its an LE. STD engines are much better for this scenario now. I'm better off in the XL friendly mechs probably running XL than LE now because I get more speed or firepower to deploy during the match.

[Prototelis]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

This is neither new nor a part of the December patch notes. This part has been working properly for the entirety of its inclusion in the game.

^lol beat me to it

Edited by Prototelis, 28 December 2018 - 01:49 PM.

[Spheroid]

Its rather crippling right now both for LFE and cXL. I think perhaps only the heat dissipation should be affected. The heat cap is too low to use anything other than a cool ballistic and not explode.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I've been replacing LFEs with XLs or STDs on a handful of heat-intensive 'Mechs just to see how it goes... for example, I swapped the LFE300 in my Jester for XL325, picking up a bit of speed and two more sinks. My AC20+2xSNPPC MAD-3R got changed from LFE325 to STD300, since the whole point of it was to be a deadside build in the first place. I've kept the LFEs on a few other 'Mechs, and instead I'm going to re-spec their skill trees for double coolshot, then just hold the second in reserve in case of ST loss.

I'm also considering STD engines for a few select Clan Battlemechs.

Progressive heat penalties for riding the curve would have been a reasonable change to the heat system. "Gotcha!" instadeath on torso loss is not reasonable.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

This is neither new nor a part of the December patch notes. This part has been working properly for the entirety of its inclusion in the game.

Ignoring what I actually know...
Give me one instance where the loss of a standard engine side torso resulted in an instant shutdown from the loss of heat before this patch, and after December 2012.

Because examples before January 2013 you're sure to find (with functional heatsink display showing the cause, too), but examples from then on you'll be quite challenged to find.

Also another heatsink bug existed in 2012/2013, and the easy fix was... I'm sure you're smart enough to figure it out.

As ever since, a heatsink loss-related shutdown never occurred again.

And in the patch's description in December 2018.
We have decided to make some back end changes to the way the heat threshold system is calculated in order to address a number of heat related display bugs that resulted in irregular heat bar behavior when components where destroyed out from under a player while they still had accumulated heat. While this change is mostly targeted to remove these heat display bugs, this will carry with it some shifts to the way that the heat system works. Especially when it comes to 'Mechs that are redlining and have their components blown out from under them.

But the most critical piece of information:
Bullet points 1 and 2.

• Destroyed Heat Sinks and Clan XL / IS Light Engine side torso destruction penalties now removes total heat threshold from the top of the available heat pool rather then from the bottom.
  
• This will mean that instead of limiting the amount of heat your bar can be reduced to, redlining to the edge of the shutdown threshold will result in a shutdown or an overridden state if an enemy destroys Heat Sinks or damages an engine out from under you.

(This implies that they had a limit to where the bar could go, which the limit was 75% of your base ten heatsinks and nothing more after January 2013, where in 2012 there was no limit of your original threshold and cooling power as the minimum).
[What I said directly above means at most, once the patch of 2013 hit, you could lose 12.5 threshold and 0.5 cooling/second at most. Before the patch of 2013, regardless of circumstances your minimum possible threshold was 30 and your minimum cooling power was 0.]
(The new limit is not stated, but it appears to be close to 40% of your overall starting threshold potentially including environmental effects. I haven't been able to get confirmation.)

[Koniving]

It is worth noting that the heatsink loss limit is not the same as the engine ST loss of Clan XL/IS LFE, as that had a separate penalty but this penalty also only affected the core 10 (+ if I remember correctly those directly implanted as part of the engine slots).

[Y E O N N E]

I don't care what you think you know; I've been experiencing slowed cooling efficiency in my 'Mechs from 2014 to present whenever DHS-laden arms, torsos, and legs get blown off.

[SFC174]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 28 December 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

I don’t think PGI will reverse course on ST loss heat spike....maybe some tweaking, but I would be surprised if it was removed totally. The fact that the OP is asking this question is probably something PGI wants in the game (real trade offs between engine types....where you have to decide what disadvantages you want to deal with). I am not saying the game is more fun today than a month ago....pre-change. Some builds were definitely more fun before. However, I am also not personally annoyed by the change either, despite the dumb overheat deaths I see happening. So, I don’t care about this issue either way. It’s just a change (if they keep it in) that will make questions like these get asked, so I bet they keep it (at least mostly)

The idea of meaningful tradeoffs is fine. That said, this is a flat downgrade in almost every imaginable way.

You've taken the compromise offering of the LFE (lighter than STD but suffers from ST loss, heavier than XL, but can survive ST loss) and narrowed its usefulness dramatically. STD and XL already had a very strong presence, primarily in assaults (STD), lights (XL) and heavy brawlers (STD - thinking some my roughnecks here).

And then there is the fact that the ST heat loss spike is another direct nerf to engine locked Clan omnis. You don't have a choice to switch engines on your HBR or EBJ, so you're flat out screwed. Piled on top of all the heat efficiency changes clan lasers have suffered it's a hard pill to swallow if you like your clan omnimechs. Come to think of it I've barely played a hellbringer since this came into being simply because energy build+easily popped ST+ST loss heat penalty is a recipe for disaster.

update - just saw someone mention the effect on deadside builds as well. So many things got messed up by this unasked for, untested change. Really needs to be reversed.

Edited by SFC174, 28 December 2018 - 02:11 PM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

SFC174, on 28 December 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

The idea of meaningful tradeoffs is fine. That said, this is a flat downgrade in almost every imaginable way.

You've taken the compromise offering of the LFE (lighter than STD but suffers from ST loss, heavier than XL, but can survive ST loss) and narrowed its usefulness dramatically. STD and XL already had a very strong presence, primarily in assaults (STD), lights (XL) and heavy brawlers (STD - thinking some my roughnecks here).

And then there is the fact that the ST heat loss spike is another direct nerf to engine locked Clan omnis. You don't have a choice to switch engines on your HBR or EBJ, so you're flat out screwed. Piled on top of all the heat efficiency changes clan lasers have suffered it's a hard pill to swallow if you like your clan omnimechs. Come to think of it I've barely played a hellbringer since this came into being simply because energy build+easily popped ST+ST loss heat penalty is a recipe for disaster.

update - just saw someone mention the effect on deadside builds as well. So many things got messed up by this unasked for, untested change. Really needs to be reversed.

First of all: I thought I made clear I am not arguing “for” this change....so I am not going to attempt to argue it. I am just stating opinion on what PGI will do/not do with this. I have plenty of friends in the game who hate this change with the passion of a thousand suns. I just can’t get quite as worked up about it personally as both sides suffer in different ways.

I do think Clan laser vomit just got crushed (maybe crushed is too strong a word...but “made much riskier” for sure) by this change...i liked Clan laser vomit where it was, but the question of if/what PGI should do with it has been out there for years...to me this change was just another one of PGI’s ham-handed balance attempts on Clan laser vomit. The only reason they might hold the line is that many of the highest performing IS heavy (and some assaults) mechs had LFE’s...those got nerfed as well. So, much like PGI to balance via nerfing the high performers on both sides...mediocrity for everyone! Maybe I just expect them to balance to the worst performing mechs/weapons/etc.....not by making the worst things better...but making the better things worse. A lot of the best mechs in the game got worse with this change...so par for the course on how PGI balances. I guess I just don’t expect any different.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 28 December 2018 - 03:51 PM.