184 replies to this topic

[Sunstruck]

I agree, using a light engine with a hot mech / energy / ppcs ect is almost pointless now.

[justcallme A S H]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

1st example link is broken

Example #2 is someone overheating then getting punished for it. Bad play is bad

I'll agree with everyone that this change isn't fun, but neither is IS XL ST death, so being fun clearly isn't an issue with some things, apparently.

Fixed it - HERE

Poor play or not - Overheat happens.

Should a user be 8-second stun-locked because of it? No.

It's bad gameplay mechanic. Stop trying to discount it.

[Jay Leon Hart]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2018 - 04:46 AM, said:

Fixed it - HERE

Poor play or not - Overheat happens.

Should a user be 8-second stun-locked because of it? No.

It's bad gameplay mechanic. Stop trying to discount it.

Thanks. At least Example 1 was a good example of this being bad [Edit] Actually, not, it's still a bad example. They both shut down initially because they didn't manage their heat, giving the enemy a nice stationary target to shoot. Manage your damn heat... [/Edit]

This is still not as bad as IS XL ST death, so unless people want to get that overturned too, I don't see the issue.

You don't typically use an IS XL on 'mechs with massive STs.

Now, you shouldn't typically use LFEs on very hot 'mechs with easy to isolate STs.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 December 2018 - 04:56 AM.

[Luminis]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 04:50 AM, said:

This is still not as bad as IS XL ST death, so unless people want to get that overturned too, I don't see the issue.

You're citing MWO's biggest, longest standing balance issue (that PGI threw myriads of bandaids on, no less, from quirks to agility changes to weapon heat / damage / duration changes) as some sort of redeeming comparison. If that doesn't highlight the issue, I don't know what does.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Luminis, on 30 December 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

You're citing MWO's biggest, longest standing balance issue (that PGI threw myriads of bandaids on, no less, from quirks to agility changes to weapon heat / damage / duration changes) as some sort of redeeming comparison. If that doesn't highlight the issue, I don't know what does.

I guess I just want this kind of furore from people over the IS XL?

Better pilots than myself seem to be struggling with this change, and it's kinda funny

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 30 December 2018 - 05:26 AM.

[Luminis]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

I guess I just want this kind of furore from people over the IS XL?

I think people just gave up on that. Don Quixote had a better shot at winning against his "giants" than we do at getting PGI to change the isXL.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I do think PGI need to revisit the other penalties for Clan XL & LFE ST loss, though. Maybe bring them back down to 20% instead of 40%?

Is it currently 40% speed and 40% heat dis loss? Or am I remembering those figures wrong?

[justcallme A S H]

Luminis, on 30 December 2018 - 05:24 AM, said:

You're citing MWO's biggest, longest standing balance issue (that PGI threw myriads of bandaids on, no less, from quirks to agility changes to weapon heat / damage / duration changes) as some sort of redeeming comparison. If that doesn't highlight the issue, I don't know what does.

At least someone gets it.

I mean if the highest end of the game thinks it's dumb...

Well...

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2018 - 06:32 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

I mean, if the highest end of the game think "overheat happens" without poor player choices, well...

[justcallme A S H]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

I mean, if the highest end of the game think "overheat happens" without poor player choices, well...

The twitch clips linked are from what I would say - The median.

Wanna try again?

You dont wanna upset the major of the population / majority streamers... Ever.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2018 - 06:39 AM.

[Knownswift]

I like the idea of the mechanic more than I like its implementation.

Might be better if instead of keeping all of the heat on side torso destruction, you only keep some of it.

[Jay Leon Hart]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

The twitch clips linked are from what I would say - The median.

Wanna try again?

You dont wanna upset the major of the population / majority streamers... Ever.

I'm just going off what you said that "overheat happens" like that explains anything, but it doesn't, does it? Overheat only happens when you make bad decisions and punishing bad decisions is what good players (and mechanics) are supposed to do.

Maybe this is just a top player problem and I'm not seeing it, because even playing half my matches in really hot PPC 'mechs (I need to improve my aim, used lasers for too long), I've not died to this change yet. I'm bad at managing heat, frequently cook myself to death and spend most of my time almost heat capped, so what are other (apparently better) players doing that this is such a bad thing, if not playing badly in the first place?

So no, I won't try again, since that point is still a bad one.

PGI already upset the majority of players / streamers. Multiple times.

Engine desync.
Skill tree.

Likely more, but that's just what jumps out at me. Why would PGI care this time, over the others?

[K O Z A K]

I guess now I'll have to spend the time to redo all IS heavies to xl again, at least now I know why I didnt sell all the xls when lfe came out. Thanks pgi, I love doing busywork in the mechlab instead of...you know.. playing the game

[Xeno Phalcon]

I still use LE on most of my mechs, I just treat stripped side torsos as if they were a XL until my heat drops down sufficiently and approach the 70% heat as if it were in the red. (IE override, try to let it cool, ect ect)

[Khobai]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

I mean, if the highest end of the game think "overheat happens" without poor player choices, well...

getting your side torso destroyed isnt always a "poor choice" though. its more like an inevitability with the crappy torso twisting clan mechs have now. and remember its not like clan omnimechs can use other engine types either. they have no choice.

I suppose you could run only cold weapons like gauss and constantly keep your heat low in anticipation of your side torso getting destroyed. But then youre not taking advantage of heat capacity as a resource, which is just bad playing... to maximize your damage output you have to generate heat.

again the game mechanic is just not fun and it needs to be fully reverted.

Edited by Khobai, 30 December 2018 - 08:14 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 30 December 2018 - 08:11 AM, said:

getting your side torso destroyed isnt always a "poor choice" though. its more like an inevitability with the crappy torso twisting clan mechs have now. and remember its not like clan omnimechs can use other engine types either. they have no choice.

I suppose you could run only cold weapons like gauss and constantly keep your heat low in anticipation of your side torso getting destroyed. But then youre not taking advantage of heat capacity as a resource, which is just bad playing... to maximize your damage output you have to generate heat.

again the game mechanic is just not fun and it needs to be fully reverted.

But overheating because you shot too many weapons *is* a poor choice, which leads to this change being a problem, which is what those videos showed.

Or, as suggested above, you could run you 'mech as per usual until your ST is compromised, then treat (insert % here) as your new maximum. You could adapt.

Yes, being punished for bad play is unfun. Unless you're doing the punishing. Are crits fun? How about overheating in general? Strikes? Ammo explosions? Tonnage limits? IS XL ST death? Limited skill points? XP grinding? Having to save C-Bills to buy 'mechs?

Yes, I'm being silly with some of the above, but really, not everything has to be fun.

If people can get PGI to change this, then good for them. I expect them to champion the removal of ST loss penalties for all engines, too, as they are not fun.

[justcallme A S H]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

Maybe this is just a top player problem and I'm not seeing it,

Given that I clearly said the examples were at best - mid tier players...

That is not where it is coming from at all.

Continue to be ignorange of a extremely bad game mechanic all you want.

It will always be a bad mechanic.

[Jay Leon Hart]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

Given that I clearly said the examples were at best - mid tier players...

That is not where it is coming from at all.

Continue to be ignorange of a extremely bad game mechanic all you want.

It will always be a bad mechanic.

Given you chose them as examples, that's all on you.

Plus, if 91% & 92% players are mid tier, who really cares about "top tier" ones? I mean honestly, unless the top 9% are paying for everything, what does PGI care if they get antsy over a change? You think only the top 9% are streaming or bringing in revenue or something?

Continue to be ignorant on how to manage your heat. Bad mechanic or not, it's easy to play around.

[justcallme A S H]

I'm ignorant of how to play the game? lol mate - I'm at the TOP of the game. Literally. I can adjust for anyting and for the most part this stupid change, I'm well and truly across.

Does that make it good? No. Acceptable? Absolutely not.

I mean I'm not someone who has grinded his way into Tier 1 over 2,500+ games. I was and have been 'up' there for a while now.

And get this right. I am talking not only from the top - but also the mid and low Tier.

I talk and interact with MANY players when I stream and across my discord and others. No one is behind this change thus far, not one. Same as the Lock-On reticule change - I was against it and not from a Top Tier perspective but from a mid to low tier point of view which again, comes from people I talk and interact with on a daily basis.

I mean go ahead and be head in the sand or be the white knight (Every thread here needs at least 3). End of the day it's a insta-gib mechanic that adds nothing to improving the gameplay.

[Luminis]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 December 2018 - 08:24 AM, said:

But overheating because you shot too many weapons *is* a poor choice, which leads to this change being a problem, which is what those videos showed.

I should probably leave the two of you to your bickering, but I really gotta chime in here.

Your heat bar is a resource, one that represents your ability to deal damage. Not utilizing your heat bar means you are not delivering the damage your Mech is capable off. This isn't anything new, it's a well established concept. Currently, on many builds, you're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" kinda situation. If you're not utilizing your heat bar, you don't contribute to the best of your Mech's abilities and if you do, you're opening yourself up to getting instagibbed by a ST loss.

A mechanic that basically offers no right answer is quite simply bad game design, if you're asking me.

Well, I kinda sorta feel that the only sensible thing to do is to still go ham with your heat because playing to win always beats playing to not lose, but that's a very opinionated stance on my behalf. And it means basically ignoring the change, underlining the bad design, grim my point of view.

Edited by Luminis, 30 December 2018 - 09:52 AM.