37 replies to this topic

[Jackal Noble]

It's flawed logic and dumb.

[- World Eater -]

https://www.reddit.c...h_carrying_ecm/

[FRAGTAST1C]

I think I'm understanding you incorrectly. Tag makes it so that you can paint an ECM enabled mech and quickly at that, right?

Edit : NVM, I read through that link. I get it now.

Edited by FRAGTAST1C, 06 January 2019 - 07:55 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

- World Eater -, on 06 January 2019 - 07:53 PM, said:

https://www.reddit.c...h_carrying_ecm/

Let me clarify; I am well aware of how it performs in game and am quite versed.
It's a device that is providing a direct line to target and thus should cut through regardless of "scrambling"
But thanks for providing that link

Edited by Jackal Noble, 06 January 2019 - 08:22 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

From a balance perspective for a .5 to 1 ton weapon vs 2 ton Narc + ammo vs hardpoints for either, perhaps a delay of 4 seconds?

[El Bandito]

Long story short: because PGI sucks at balancing. Especially LRM mechanics and its counterplays.

[Novakaine]

If freaking tag lasers are scrambled then why not the rest.
IT'S A LASER.
Fail science PGI

[Koniving]

Novakaine, on 06 January 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

If freaking tag lasers are scrambled then why not the rest.
IT'S A LASER.
Fail science PGI

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear
Bit more to the science.

This said... if you're inside the radius of the ECM, TAG or not, your missiles are simply jammed.

-----------

If you're outside of the ECM, then TAG can cut through the ECM and your missiles, not simply jammed by the ECM, can then lock.

[Chris Lowrey]

It does. But it is reliant on both the laser being within range, and physically hitting the target in order to "paint" it. It will not register if you only "sweep" over the target without attempting to maintain it at least until the initial effect kicks in.

As it is the weekend, I'm not in the office to see the exact specifics, but it takes about a second to put a 'Mech into a "Tagged" state, at which point you can target the 'Mech regardless of ECM or Stealth Armor cover. (The Mech will receive a reticle icon similar to the missile or eyeball ecm icon when a target is under the effects of TAG.) You need to maintain painting the target in order to continue to pierce through any form of sensor counter measures although once you paint the target long enough to get the TAG icon, there is a second of "cooldown" to allow for a bit of wiggle room in maintaining the tag lock so it won't blink out the second you stop accurately hitting the target, but accuracy is required in order to activate the initial effect.

But one important distinction between TAG and other equipment is that it does not "counter" ECM like a PPC hit or BAP. ECM and Stealth Armor still remain fully functional when you paint a target. You will not disable the bubble or boot a Stealth 'Mech out of a stealth state by painting it. Instead, TAG will allow you to target anything that is being painted and provides lock-on bonus' to anyone targeting the 'Mech that is being TAGed.

The last time I looked into this about two weeks ago in tests with Spheroid, it functioned just as I described above and was able to cut through the Stealth armored targets that he wanted to test. If it is not working in accordance to what is mentioned above, then it would be considered bugged and not working as intended.

[Chris Lowrey]

Koniving, on 06 January 2019 - 09:23 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear
Bit more to the science.

This said... if you're inside the radius of the ECM, TAG or not, your missiles are simply jammed.

-----------

If you're outside of the ECM, then TAG can cut through the ECM and your missiles, not simply jammed by the ECM, can then lock.

This is also true. While TAG will cut through any form of ECM protection in order to acquire a lock, this does not "counter" ECM's effects. Only allows you to pierce through them. In this case, ECM would still be jamming any form of missile system you have if it gets close enough.

[Koniving]

(For anyone that's been confused in the past when I mention 'hard counters' [like PPCs which allows you to target the enemy, remove jamming and disables to lockon delay] and 'soft counters' [like TAG, which allows you to lock onto the enemy but does not stop the jamming] Chris has just explained it.)

[Novakaine]

Point taken.

[Maddermax]

The only problem I have with it is that Stealth armor makes streaks basically pointless, even with all the bells and whistles. You have a 100m window between maximum streak range, and jamming distance, where you can tag to remove stealth without being jammed, which isn't enough time to actually get a lock on a fast mover.

The real issue is that ECM jamming on a Stealthed mech can't currently be countered with Counter Mode or Active Probe, unless they've fixed that glitch now.

[LordNothing]

never really liked tag mechanics from the get go (see tag redux thread). they were much better in living legends. as it is, its a waste of a ton and a laser hardpoint. only time i use it is with streaks, and usually the light tag on the clan side. i still prefer direct fire weapons over homing weapons because i can fire them immediately as opposed to later.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 January 2019 - 06:35 PM.

[Koniving]

Maddermax, on 07 January 2019 - 07:32 AM, said:

The only problem I have with it is that Stealth armor makes streaks basically pointless, even with all the bells and whistles. You have a 100m window between maximum streak range, and jamming distance, where you can tag to remove stealth without being jammed, which isn't enough time to actually get a lock on a fast mover.

The real issue is that ECM jamming on a Stealthed mech can't currently be countered with Counter Mode or Active Probe, unless they've fixed that glitch now.

One PPC neuter a stealth Mech for several seconds. Hit periodically for best effect.

Can also use NARC.

[razenWing]

While I appreciate Chris's explanation of the game mechanics. I think I agree with Jack's original assessment that this is a CRAPPY mechanics.

It's not the fact that it's not working, it's the fact that it sucks.

Let me explain...

What is tag honestly? It's simply a laser beam to guide missile trajectory. Basically, instead of requiring a "locking signature" from the source, you are telling the missile guidance system to instead, lock onto the end of the laser beam.

Think of it as visual guided tow missiles. Or even simpler, think of it as the game mechanics in Call of Duty games.

So in actuality, this should have been very simple, once the missile is fire, they will fly (Within their possible physics momentum) to the end of the laser beam until impact. Which means in practical game play, you have to aim your tag like your laser as a sort of delay damage mechanism. That makes TOTAL sense.

Because, realistically, the only way to really diffuse a tag signature, has absolutely nothing to do with whatever counter measure you are can install currently (stealth, ecm). Simply, if you tag is active, your missile should just chase it like a cat following a laser beam.

This has a few advantages: you have a guidance system that can cut through all countermeasures. Con? There is no locking signature, so if you absolutely rely on "lock" and can't aim like a missile, you will hit absolutely nothing. To implement the realistic expectation of how TAG should work ACTUALLY makes the tag/missile combo a skill weapon. Which honestly, IMO an improvement upon current mechanics.

I don't know why game decide to go the complicated route of locking signature vs detection and all that weird none-sense, but alas...

----

Addendum: to honestly disrupt a TAG pointer, you basically have to cause some form of diffusion of beam at the end of it's path. Which, given TAG is supposed to be like a power laser, is highly unlikely given the game's mechanics. (but also, could explain why there is a maximum range, as those concentrated laser beam tend to deteriorate relatively quickly... hence, no effective laser cannons on our warships yet)

A realistic way would be smoke screen. Where miniature particles just refract lasers like crazy. But again, even as we call fro countermeasures to be implemented since the start of... 3 years ago, these are not remotely being considered to be in game. So, eh... what do we know, right?

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Your mech still needs a way to transfer the telemetry data to the missiles in flight. That's where the ECM cuts in.
What TAG does in MWO, Artemis does in TT Battletech. And therefore, it's rightfully shut down by ECM.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 07 January 2019 - 09:18 PM.

[TheBossOfYou]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 07 January 2019 - 09:15 PM, said:

Your mech still needs a way to transfer the telemetry data to the missiles in flight. That's where the ECM cuts in.
What TAG does in MWO, Artemis does in TT Battletech. And therefore, it's rightfully shut down by ECM.

Incorrect. That is not how a laser designator works.

[Bombast]

razenWing, on 07 January 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

Addendum: to honestly disrupt a TAG pointer, you basically have to cause some form of diffusion of beam at the end of it's path.

That's the current method of dealing with laser designaters. It's also possible to disrupt TAG by 'spoofing' the laser's frequency and pulse, and then firing your own lasers into the surrounding environment, essentially making the light equivalent of countermeasure flares. It's not practical now, but hey, its 3067 baby.

Also of note is that Battletech TAG isn't, strictly speaking, a purely laser based system. And TAG fluff even talks about how it's possible to jam the laser, and how TAG counters that.

Sarna.net said:

Mated to the designator is a highly-sensitive polarized electromagnetic sensor which detects if the target starts emitting corresponding laser beams to throw off the incoming smart weapon. If the sensor does detect these countermeasures in action, the targeting laser begins quickly shifting the frequency of its beam at random to throw off the countermeasures. Information on the changing frequencies are continually transmitted to the smart weapon via tight-beam, multi-frequency laser communication system so that it tracks the correct laser designator.

So TAG is actually in constant communication with whatever munitions are being fired (None of the ammution we have available in game is compatible with TAG, by the way), and in theory ECM could be spoofing the TAG's laser and jamming it's ability to send updates to the projectiles.

End of the day, I don't envy PGI or CGL on this one. BT/MW Electronics are a logical mess.

TheBossOfYou, on 07 January 2019 - 09:59 PM, said:

Incorrect. That is not how a laser designator works.

Real life laser designators don't work that way, but TAG does (Not telemetry, but it is in constant contact with the missiles).

As a side note, TAG (And NARC as well) shouldn't affect Streaks, since the whole point of a Streak system is that is has a built in TAG (Though Streak laser acquisition does provide telemetry, its basically the same system, but a bit smarter. In theory.).

Also, ECM should kill NARC.

Edited by Bombast, 07 January 2019 - 10:07 PM.

[Prototelis]

You can actually fully counter stealth armor with 5 tag laser, but the ghost heat limit is 4. thxpgi