323 replies to this topic

[Kamikaze Viking]

So the constant average speed is direct line shortest distance to target. And hence the higher the arc the faster the missile has to go (instantaneous velocity) to achieve that constant speed in the flat plane.

Edit: Navid just added a diagram that explains it perfectly

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 18 January 2019 - 01:20 AM.

[Kamikaze Viking]

So here's a thought. If this is intended to be a buff to direct LRM fire (despite the above testing). Can we have a change to the final arc of indirect fire such that when standing behind cover they dont just go straight over the cover and hit you anyway?

OR a reduction in the effect of Target Decay?

Edited by Kamikaze Viking, 18 January 2019 - 02:07 AM.

[NocturnalBeast]

I just put laser AMS on my Mechs now adays, along with AMS overdrive, so don't care much.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Ed Steele, on 18 January 2019 - 02:30 AM, said:

I just put laser AMS on my Mechs now adays, along with AMS overdrive, so don't care much.

Nice meme.

[NocturnalBeast]

denAirwalkerrr, on 18 January 2019 - 02:36 AM, said:

Nice meme.

I am too old for Meme's.

[Nesutizale]

If LRMs can have two different arcs now...what about ATMs?
I mean originaly they had 3 ammo types and depending on what you use them for the arc should change shouldn't it?

[TheCallandor]

What is funny PGI is trying to fix LRMs and they haven't even fixed the friends list that they broke!!!!! Good job PGI your just going to break another part of the game!!!

[Slambot]

PRAISE JESUS! PRAISE JESUS! LORD HAVE MERCY!

[Ravenlord]

Bud Crue, on 14 January 2019 - 12:02 PM, said:

Well, if this PTS goes like most, it will be the same few dozen of us actually trying to test that which is intended to be tested, and another couple dozen -including PGI devs- running mechs and build having nothing to do with the subject of the PTS with most matches devolving into a 4x4 brawl regardless. Fun times, and oh so good data, coming up!

Well, the best test is the one that closest resembles live. Everyone and his grandma running around with LRMs because they are the test subject would not be that.

[Mechwarrior 37]

Pro Tip:

Having your patching work normally might make more players try it.

[Navid A1]

Another spread test with LRM20s at a longer range:

[Clay Endfield]

New player here: I've been playing for a little over a week now, and I can tell you, LRMs are easily the worst experience I've had in that time. The amount of players spamming Lurm boats is not only obnoxious in its banality, it's downright irritating to have to deal with. Being unable to engage an enemy that is consistently attacking you from behind cover 1000+ meters out is bad enough; six players spamming LRMs from extreme distances is enough to make me want to throw the match.

To make matters even worse, the popularity of LRMs seems to have had another unseemly impact on gameplay: over-used maps.

Thanks to the general lack of cover (and the low ambient temperature), Polar Highlands & Frozen City are the single most played maps in my experience, by a sickening margin. Playing the exact same maps over and over and over again is driving me nuts; a little diversity would go a long way towards keeping the experience fresh.

I sincerely hope that this patch shuts down the "easy button" solution so many find appealing, while also eases the communal pressure to exclusively nominate maps that provide optimal conditions for LRM spam.

As a new player though, I do have to ask something in regards to homing missiles in general: will there ever be an effective countermeasure to break Missile Lock?

ECM is exclusive to a handful of 'mechs, and everything from point-click TAG, NARC, & Passive Active Probes can hard counter ECM. Even when buffed out with range & damage skills, individual AMS only seems to halve locked on missile damage.

The only universal method of breaking Missile Lock that I'm aware of is powering down your mech for a spell. Problem is, you can't really power down in the middle of a firefight (Brawlers can get royally wrecked by LRMs when performing their intended role), and if you don't power down behind cover, the missiles that were locked on to your mech and fired prior to powering down will still hit you.

From my perspective, it seems like we have more (and more effective) countermeasures for Anti-Missile solutions than we have Anti-Missile solutions. If this adjustment makes LRMs less viable for spamming, then I suppose the former will also have been addressed; but if LRM boats remain top of the meta, and players just have to pack more ammo to compensate for the adjustment...

...I'd appreciate having a viable solution to hard-counter their "press easy button" to win mentality.

[NocturnalBeast]

Clay Endfield, on 19 January 2019 - 12:41 AM, said:

...I'd appreciate having a viable solution to hard-counter their "press easy button" to win mentality.

In quickplay it is difficult to do, but if every Mech equips either a Laser AMS or a regular AMS with at least a half ton of ammo, then LRMS are not so bad. Also make sure you spec into at least one point of Radar Deprivation, so they lose their lock when you do get behind cover.

LRMs have been part of BATTLETECH / MECHWARRIOR since the beginning, so they are a fact of life in this game, but there are counters, people just don't like to use them.

[ZortPointNarf]

Well I have now spent 5 hours spinning away trying to get a single test game, nada. So PTS plus event == zero testing.
Not amused.

[Mechwarrior 37]

Clay Endfield, on 19 January 2019 - 12:41 AM, said:

New player here: I've been playing for a little over a week now, a

As other players will tell you, At the bottom Tiers there are a lot of LRMers. As you move up, you will see them less and less. The last event where we had to shoot down missiles using AMS, it took 7 games because almost no one had LRMs.

I like the new LRMs although it has been hard to find a match. For a while, I've been working on playing "Assault LRMers".

One of my many mental problems is that I always have to be up front. In a well trained and called team, this would be fine. In Quickplay, it tends to mean I die quickly. Other players are happy to allow me to soak up damage and target for them. I try to take out at least one enemy mech to cover my loss.

I play Clan Mechs with LRMs, ATMs and also maybe a Streak. The LRM is meant to annoy the enemy and to hit him if he tries hiding. The ATMS kill them and the Streak wards against lights and also is used in my "missile direct fire"

For I.S. mechs, it is sort of the same thing but with MRMs taking the place of the ATMs.

A general test I run is to go through the 8 mechs on the Tourmaline Desert. Hitting the different mechs from different angles and distances. The first very obvious changes were how much quicker the enemy mechs died and with a lot fewer missiles. I try to have enough ammo to kill all 8 and the first time with the new LRMs I had 1,800 LRMs plus other missile left over.

I'm a player that always uses a TAG and tries most of the time to have a Direct Line of Sight. But in a one on one battle between a missile mech and a "shooter" mech with let's say ACs cannons, the missile mech will lose every trade. So the LRMers 600ms behind me do well and I die a quicker death.

So this works for me.

I'll try to make some videos, I saw Snuggles where he showed everything well. But he also could not find a match.

And for the record, Indirect Fire is an important part of every military force.

P.S. The other difference is the quicker target lock times for LRMs. But the slower lock times for ATMs is still and now a little more annoying. I have videos showing that using a TAG for both, the LRMs will hit and the ATMS will miss because they never had a lock.

Edited by Mechwarrior 37, 19 January 2019 - 08:09 AM.

[Erox]

Is anyone using the test server? I haven't had one game, since the test was started.

[Chados]

I stand corrected. I like this change. The LOS adjustment applies when you’re behind teammates. It shifts to high angle.

Implement this. Tactical LRMing will benefit.

[Domalash]

I've only been playing about a week but it didn't take much testing to figure out lrm's were overpowered. Think about it. I can attack someone without even seeing them and without them being able to see me which protects me from all LOS weapons. Why would I ever take a weapon that requires me to expose myself to danger? Plus they generate so little heat and weigh very little. Plus I can get AMS and ECM to counter other boats. I mean hello! Duh, it's a no brainer.

I think what people haven't really been honest about or talked about much here is that people are going to run what makes them the most cash a lot of the time. Call me what you want, do you think I care? Of course, not. I'm just being logical and efficient. And it's not like there's much teamwork or communication in quick matches most of the time. Really everyone is just grinding xp and cash. Sometimes players will call out targets but often the tatics start and end with stick together guys. And just sticking together is often enough to win over a team that doesn't.

The point is that for me, doing a guaranteed minimum every match was important. With an lrm boat I got that. Even if I got attacked out of the gate I could do a few hundred damage easy by the time I hit the ground. But, most of the time, I'd get at least 500 damage or more! And with good spotters, taggers and counters, I often get 1200 damage!!!! Which is way above most players.

What I also realized was that I could make much more cash and xp by winning matches. So by playing a build that could do 1200 damage easy and often carry my team to victory, it was really the best way to go. If I don't win I still get high damage bonuses, but chances are that that high damage will carry my team to victory in a vast majority of my matches. And I'm also going up the pilot tier levels pretty quick I think.

Changing the lrm arc would just turn them in ATMs really. And we wouldn't really need lrms, ams or ecm anymore. I think a few people have said something similar to this. But what they didn't say was that it makes for good game play. This game is about knowledge and experience. This mechanic rewards players who learned about AMS and ECM and who don't stand out in the open alone with a mech that has no defenses. It lets experienced players slaughter these noobs and forces noobs to learn. It forces them to find the right mech with both AMS and ECM and realize why having both is so good. You might think one is enough and two would be redundant but they're not. ECM is often countered and AMS cuts down the damage you take for very little extra tonnage. But I also notice when multiple AMS are around my damge is much less but I don't actually realize it until the end of the match. However, most of the time I find AMS very weak but maybe that's because it's often alone and I'm so strong with over 70 or 75 rockets launched per volley.

When deciding between ATM and LRM I quickly realized that ATMs really required LOS because of the low arc and that they where easy to dodge by anyone peeking and firing. I mean there's no way to really hit someone peeking quickly with an ATM. Again it's more knowledge you have to experiment to learn. That knowledge lets you slaughter ATM players just by peeking.

All that said, LRMs are just crazy overpowered in quick matches. Maybe against an experienced team they're nothing but in a quick match with little communication and many noobs they are the best. I'm not kidding when I say I carry my team 75% of the time to an easy win. Sure a few maps with cover suck but most of them I can get my fill of damage at least. Only Solaris CIty sucks for me.

Sometimes I hear people complain that assaults should be up front but they never complain when you pull 1200 damage no matter how you do it. I've started pointing out to players that assaults only have a bit extra armor that might save them from one or two more shots them they can take. It's not like an mmorpg tank that has 5000 armor that can tank damage from twelve players at the same time. I explain to them that assaults have to peek and indirect fire like everyone. Doesn't matter what mech you pilot, if you stand in front of a 12 man firing squad then you're toast. I think we've probably all over extended once or twice and found that out the hard way. Finding yourself surprised and in front of the whole enemy team is not fun when you have crap reverse speed. I've even tested that and really you need like a fast 140kph mech to get out a situation like that. Anything less and you're dead because you get back to cover. Point is I wish all mechs had more speed at least enough to get out of a spot if you react fast enough. Sucks that you can react fast enough but not save yourself.

While I'm on other topics. Why lock interface while searching for quickmatch? Lock the mech selection and loadout sure but let us browse until a match is found. Sucks staring at searching for 2 or 3 minutes. Also, I would much rather be able to play with the same team all night. Would be nice if a quick match could keep playing together and only replacing those who decide to leave.

And the whole faction system and drop deck system is crazy stupid in my opinion. Maybe it's just explained badly. Maybe it's easy when you got a friend with experience showing you it. But for me it was all a bit over complicated. Even the Solaris pvp stuff wasn't obvious. I mean just say pvp and just show me a faction list or something. Show me who's queued for what when where and how. Don't require me to have 4 mechs and a drop deck whatever that is. I know to you it's all normal but to a noob it's not. It's totally dumb. Just make it more normal. A chat window. A place to see factions or guilds or whatever. How many members per faction? So many questions that are just not answered quick and easy.

Basically, I want to join pugs like an mmorpg. Run with that pug all night. Maybe someone in that pug is in a faction and see I'm not a dummy and invites me to his faction. We get on discord have a blast yadayadayada. KISS

[Shadowomega1]

Domalash, on 19 January 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

*snip*

Hey Domalash what Tier rating are you in on your main account, if this isn't your only account?

[Domalash]

Oh ya, the point I really wanted to make was that the whole LRM and counter with AMS/ECM mechanic makes for a more interesting match. After all, both teams can have boats. How well each makes them and uses them should have an impact. Knowing that I can dump armor for more ammo and still survivor because I always indirect fire is knowledge that one team may have and the other don't. Basically, it makes the action more fast paced. It pushes the action in many ways. Teams can't wait around forever when lrms start flying. So I like that they are OP in a sense. They could use a small nerf perhaps but changing the arc is a total nerf to the point where they're just ATM and LRMs don't even exist anymore. I know they would still work in IDF mode and only have a small nerf like I said would be ok BUT if the arc is low during LOS and they move or are peeking it's just a bad or weak ATM. And often time I do peek to get a target myself so then if they're not fully exposed I won't get my high arc to hit them with my full payload. Point is I don't mind more heat and/or less damage but don't mess with arc. The arc makes lrms what they are. There's no where to hide. If I lock on you I pretty much hit you in most places. That's what makes it deadly and emminent threat and what pushes the pace and action in many ways. Both teams can do it so it's always fair. Anyways, just my thoughts.

Oh, I also like the idea of having to protect our boats. And it seems like experienced people realize that it's normal for boats to get more damage and that it's a way of farming damage to some degree. Of course if everyone was a boat that might be a problem. It's kind of unfair but it's also kind of less fun for boats. I kind of see it as a thing for noobs to farm with while the experienced players brawl it out or peek it out and defend the noobs. Maybe some of this is just in my head I dunno.

Someone asked a good question earlier in the thread. Something like what's the point or purpose of LRMs. I think the point can be that wicked weapon, that portable missile, that the team has to protect because it has so much power but is so weak. How many boats versus how many defenders that's the question. Maybe you have lots of defenders that could push but you don't execute it fast enough. You may have too many boats and get rushed and can't hold back a good push. Makes it fun.

As I said before, assaults are not tanks but people realize it's good to protect them because of their damage potential. I use an assault for my boat. It makes sense because you don't need fast movement or control of your mech when your weapon can easily lock on to targets. It makes sense because it starts in the back. It makes sense that it has a bit extra armor like a turret would have. Of course assaults can still choose the los of sight option and weapons but they make great lrm boats imo. You may think it's taking away a front line mech from the team but there are no front line mechs imo. Give assaults 2000 armor and then ya maybe. But they have like an extra 200 to 300 armor spread around. Give them some repair patches or heals or w/e you wana call it then ok they can be tanks. But right now they're not tanks. Bottom line is what does it matter if a mech is doing 1200 damage with lasers or lrms or rotary cannons. It's all the same. They still can't tank no matter what weapon they pick. All that matters is that they have massive dmg output because they can carry more. Of course, imo, lrms are obviously the best or easiest. Some skilled players do the same damage with other weapons. They do get a bit of extra time with their armor even when brauling. But it's not tanking imo. Far from it. It may give them time to do great damage with their massive arsenal of weapons but that's it.

I'm like a few matches away from tier 3. Again only been playing a week. My bar is 90% full I think on tier 4 atm. Update, hit tier 3 today. Took some time but got there. Remember probability is you'll be on losing and winning team 50% of the time so tier should stay the same unless you're doing something right. And even if team loses and I did 1k dmg I still go up in pilot level. That happens a lot with lrm boat.

Edited by Domalash, 20 January 2019 - 10:31 AM.