323 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

dwwolf, on 15 January 2019 - 10:42 AM, said:

LMAO changing the goalposts much ?

It seems like the real goal is Nerf LRMs into the ground again ( like during most of MWOs existence ) by making IDF unusable again.

Explain how "I" changed goal posts?

[Racerxintegra2k]

HammerMaster, on 15 January 2019 - 10:41 AM, said:

They stated it wasn't ready to go in the wild.
The in LOS spread/speed buff vs out of LOS speed/spread nerf is the difference maker.
AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN RALLYING FOR FOR A LONG TIME.
Sandbaggers and parasitic lock farmers will have to re learn and its UP TO YOU TO TEACH THEM.

Who is "we" .. this games population is almost always 50/50 on development questions. No one has to re-learn anything they can simply walk away, frankly people have been for a while now.

[HammerMaster]

Racerxintegra2k, on 15 January 2019 - 10:54 AM, said:

Who is "we" .. this games population is almost always 50/50 on development questions. No one has to re-learn anything they can simply walk away, frankly people have been for a while now.

More like 48/48 with 4% DGAF
Walk away? Good.
But seriously the "Knows better than us" crew has to band together and actually help people in "Stats" lower than them rather than saying how bad they are and devaluing their input.
I know that's a lot to ask.

Edited by HammerMaster, 15 January 2019 - 10:59 AM.

[Mechi Messer]

I don't play QP so my opinion is based on FP only:
Halfdecent groups with narc and CLRM80+ make games quite unfun. Ok, first time it was funny. I have to admit that. Sadly they just didn't stop letting the shithawks fly. No ams or ecm saves you when a narcbeacon is bleeping out of your ********, you are spotted and/or UAVs are present. This works only on a few maps but the spread of lurms just doesn't matter at this point. We are not talking about mechlabfail lrm15/2spl/lbx5-abominations. It's hardcoreboated bluestreampeeshower that makes my PC stutter and my mechs vaporized in seconds. The ark is so peculiar that there is little cover on these maps.
And no, there is not much skill involved. There is no such thing as lurmskills. Trained monkeys can do that given moderatly capable narcers are present. Even the Lurmtrolls say so. It's just not funny anymore.

[Prototelis]

I like the lower arc on LOS. This will force lrmboats to move out from behind cover AND teammates. Thereby making them share armor lest they incur penalties to score or trigger the in game automatic timer.

[GaelicWolf]

DAEDALOS513, on 15 January 2019 - 09:53 AM, said:

That's something the newer players aren't considering.. if they make lrms as useful as direct fire weapons... than actual capable pilots will start using them and ttk newer players (ie. lurm lovers) will decrease making the game less enjoyable for them.

Be careful what you ask for and be happy with what you got..

This right here is the elephant in the room we are not talking about
With an admittedly easier weapon to use.....the newer pilots will not stick around to learn all the mechanics of the game as TTK goes down and they get frustrated and leave. We have a small enough population and cannot afford to chase away the new guys.

[Vorpal Puppy]

Didnt read the whole thread, so I may have missed it - which trajectory will dumb-fired LRMs take?

[Racerxintegra2k]

HammerMaster, on 15 January 2019 - 10:59 AM, said:

More like 48/48 with 4% DGAF
Walk away? Good.
But seriously the "Knows better than us" crew has to band together and actually help people in "Stats" lower than them rather than saying how bad they are and devaluing their input.
I know that's a lot to ask.

I've spent almost 3 years now recruiting,mentoring,training and playing with lower level(rookie) players. I did this because i enjoy their company and despite not having met them yet in real life they are friends. With that being said id say maybe only 1 out of every 10 players actually sticks around. No amount of help/mentoring will overcome a game that isn't fun.

Like most changes PGI has been making as the population is fleeing ... is not fun. Correlation or Coincidence ?

also to stick with your model .. if 48% of the current population love this change and 48% of the population don't like it ... we will lose population over it. Every time PGI sticks some decision where the community is split we lose population in droves.

Edited by Racerxintegra2k, 15 January 2019 - 11:23 AM.

[Raydeen]

You should work on the AMS the counter to lrms first. Maybe start paying people cbills for shooting down LRMS targeting other players, boosting its range, rate of fire, etc. A few minor buffs could make a big enough difference. Right now if a player brings a double or triple AMS they get paid in next to nothing. I see quite a few people complaining in game and no AMS on their mech. A bunch of those people could afford to lose a ton and a half of ammo to support an AMS.

[DAEDALOS513]

For those of you that think LRM's are weak, and spread too much damage, and there are too many counters to lrms.. I'm here to tell you if you aren't doing well, like frickin AMAZING with LRMs.. you are definitely doing something wrong, plain and simple. A lot of factors come into play when you are a lurmer. Let me school you..

Most of the time if you find yourself doing subpar in a lurm build, it's due to bad positioning because the preconceived notion is that a lurm boat has to stay in the back.. this couldn't be further from the truth.. at the back you are likely to get left behind and become vulnerable to a light swarm; your missiles take longer to reach their target increasing chances of missing; and finally, you aren't sharing armour with your team leading to your team dying quicker.

Another reason is you aren't using the right mech or not building the right mech, properly. My eyes have seen lurms on mechs that had no business firing missiles. Look at the quirks before deciding whether lrms are a good fit for a chassis, and wether you can sustain fire while dealing good damage at the same time. Two lurm boats that stand out are the Awesome 8R for the IS and the Orion-IIC-A for Clan. And for the love of God, don't chainfire LRM 5's.

Lurmers like to whine about AMS.. well there are counters to that missile counter.. they're called proper positioning and Velocity nodes (also don't forget target decay nodes, a must-have for any lurmer worth their salt.. pun intended). Fight up front where AMS won't have time enough to take down as many missiles, and Velocity nodes will allow you to cut through AMS like butter.

Many times I've heard on comms that a lurm boat has run out of ammo not even mid way through the match.. I mean come on.

I can go on and on.. but bottom line, blame inexperience for bad performance, not the weapon system. It does not need a buff, in actuality it needs nerfing, but PGI has to cater to all the new comers to the game to make them feel warm and welcome.

I remember when the lower arc went live by accident, it was hella fun.. but it was OP as hell. TTK will go down and you guys that want this change will have this to whine about next..

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 15 January 2019 - 12:07 PM.

[Raydeen]

Instead of launching a nerfquake every month maybe use a light touch and fix the problems you just created from the last few changes.

[Laser Kiwi]

Alloh, on 14 January 2019 - 12:15 PM, said:

I really disliked the NEW behavior. LRM should be preferably INDIRECT fire, ballistic trajectory. Direct fire is for ATMs, MRM, Streaks and SRMs.

Instead of messing up what is fine, why don't you FIX STREAKS??

Streaks are utterly broke, take too long to lock, the aim is too narrow, and no longer can kill with streaks!

Indeed, a 4x STREAK6+Active Probe+2xUAVs+ECM:counter MEDIUM or heavy is no match to a FLEA with ECM. It should be easy to kill a flea or piranha with 24xStreaks on a salvo, at least cripple it severily. Instead, the light will continue charging even after another 2 salvos, 72 streaks cannot kill a fast moving 20ton light mech!! Instead of killing, you damage all parts, head included.

Streak2 should always do 2 dmg to torsos, and the other 2dmg be randomized! instead, they rarely damage the only the torsos!!!

Streaks are broken and need a FIX and a BUFF, while LRMs are fine and should NOT be buffed with faster trajectory /accuracy.

Streaks work fine. At about 100m, closer than that an ecm light renders them useless

Edited by Laser Kiwi, 15 January 2019 - 11:45 AM.

[Laser Kiwi]

Lurms were fine before you "fixed" them the last time. Only after the velocity increase did people complain about how OP they were, but we still had lurm boats before that, so they were never broken till they got broke.

DAEDALOS513, on 15 January 2019 - 11:32 AM, said:

For those of you that think LRM's are weak, and spread too much damage, and there are too many counters to lrms.. I'm here to tell you if you aren't doing well, like frickin AMAZING with LRMs.. you are definitely doing something wrong, plain and simple. A lot of factors come into play when you are a lurmer. Let me school you..

Most of the time if you find yourself doing subpar in a lurm build, it's due to bad positioning because the preconceived notion is that a lurm boat has to stay in the back.. this couldn't be further from the truth.. at the back you are likely to get left behind and become vulnerable to a light swarm; your missiles take longer to reach their target increasing chances of missing; and finally, you aren't sharing armour with your team.

Another reason is you aren't using the right mech or not building the right mech, properly. My eyes have seen lurms on mechs that had no business firing missiles. Look at the quirks before deciding whether lrms are a good fit for a chassis. Two lurm boats that stand out are the Awesome 8R for the IS and the Orion-IIC-A for Clan. And for the love of God, don't chainfire LRM 5's.

Lurmers like to whine about AMS.. well there are counters to that missile counter.. they're called proper positioning and Velocity nodes (also don't forget target decay nodes, a must-have for any lurmer worth their salt.. pun intended). Fight up front where AMS won't have time enough to take down as many missiles, and Velocity nodes will allow you to cut through AMS like butter.

Many times I've heard on comms that a lurm boat has run out of ammo not even mid way through the match.. I mean come on.

I can go on and on.. but bottom line, blame inexperience to bad performance, not the weapon system. It does not need a buff, in actuality it needs nerfing, but PGI has to cater to all the new comers to the game to make them feel warm and welcome.

I remember when the lower arc went live by accident, it was hella fun.. but it was OP as hell. TTK will go down and you guys that want this change will have this to whine about next..

You forgot the novacat which has an inbuilt target delay bonus, that puppy is good for 1000 damage on many occasions. And it does run out of ammo, 6 lrm 15's chew through the ammo like nothing else, you can fire off your 2000+ missiles well before the end of the game.

[Barkem Squirrel]

I guess this means no more fighting 2 or 3 other LRM boats from under a bridge on river city now, darn!

Still the velocity Nerf is interesting, I was having fun with about 210+ speed LRMs. Then there will be areas on some maps to fire under cover more than now. Like Crimson Straits I think now it is 220 m or you hit the ceiling. Mining collective in the tunnels, both under min range. HPG in the basement will be interesting. Then in the tunnel on frozen city.

I wish I had time to do this, I have some devilish things in my head to try, but just not the time or computer right now unless I want to play at less than 12 fps and not get intoa match until 1345.

Still vapor eagle or huntsman to test out using the bounce for targeting. Then the archer, maddogs and maybe the Battlemaster 1S. Awesomes Then again I favor bouncy mediums with LRMs so it will be interesting. STill seeing the fight may make some areas better for direct LRM attacks, but also make some attacks impossible.

Almost forgot. The jenner IIc or Oxide for that close LRM support ankle bitter.

I just want to see If I can still make the LRMs fly around the corner of the building and hit someone.

[VeritasSuperOmnia]

So STOKED that I was passed up for the balance position, but you're using all of my ideas. 10/10 bad karma.

[Reno Blade]

I like the changes, but i think the LRMs are a bit too spammy (especially clans having over 60 -120 missiles on one mech) with the current heat and cooldown values.

- Arch reduction on LoS -> good for maps like solaris, crimson, HPG ...
- Spread increase -> good, might need bit more
- Velocity decrease -> not that good for a weapon where you need to keep aiming for the whole time
- Heat Scale limit increase -> good, it just matches the larger launchers better
- Heat Scale Penalty amount increase -> good, might need bit more heat

additional changes, i think are needed:
- Base heat -> heat is quite low for (Clan) lrm boats
- Base cooldown -> cooldown is low enough for (Clan) lrm boats to keep spamming it without backup weapons.
This is the most annoying part of LRMs !
- Tracking strenght -> might need to be reduced for indirect
- Spread -> might need to be reduced in general to make Artemis worth more


How do you see the new arch mechanic interacting with the Artemis?
Artemis could be used to distinguish the different flight patterns instead of direct/indirect. It would allow a player choice in building the mech.
On the other hand, it would not reward the LoS fire with the nice stream advantage...

Keep-staring-to-lockon-and-keep-staring-to-hit
I would prefere if missiles would be fire-and-forget mechnic, because it would allow you to twist away without wasting the shot.
Nowadays you have the choice of
- dps weapons (RACs)
- burst weapons (PPC/Gauss/SRM/ACs)
- duration weapons (LRM, Laser, cUAC)
The LRMs are the worst, because you need to lock-on and then you need to keep the lock until you hit (depending on radar dep vs target retention).
The only trick you can use is to gain the lock by indirect targeting before engaging (e.g. from cover).

If the missiles would be fire-and-forget after lock, you would be able to twist and you could also supress multiple targets easier (as you would still hit the first target while locking the next one already).

[dwwolf]

Prototelis, on 15 January 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:

I like the lower arc on LOS. This will force lrmboats to move out from behind cover AND teammates. Thereby making them share armor lest they incur penalties to score or trigger the in game automatic timer.

Nope This will change LRMs into LoS weapons that are still worse than DF weapons . We have plenty of DF weapons. Besides that, we already have ATMs or MRMs in this role on a missile basis ( and Streaks at the very short range ).

[justcallme A S H]

dwwolf, on 15 January 2019 - 07:14 AM, said:

False equivalency : high damage =/ good weapon in this case.

LRM damage is all over. It gets a low amount of kills ( which is what matters ) for the damage they do.
LRM is king in wasting damage.

Excuse me sir... But you're wrong.

LRM DPS is near 20.0 for a lot of mechs, basically the highest in the game. You can output 640dmg in 30s in the right conditions, which for a indirect weapon, come up far more often than direct fire.

Who cares if the damage is spread and they get low kills? (which is untrue). Damage is damage. If you can strip 30% of your opponents armour before the fight really starts when your team is quite capable of finishing them off because you are already at an advantage.

Thus LRM DPS needs to be nerfed, thats the core issue with it. This PTS, doesn't address that realistically.

Something a lot of people simply don't understand.

[dwwolf]

Trajectory change needs to be a toggle or removed. LRM's only niche is being able to fire over obstacles / team mates, at the cost of efficient damage application.
Better LoS LRMs encroach on ATM/MRM/(Streak) territory. Being worse at long range fire utterly kills LRM niche as well if you compare them to ATM's.

I had rather that LRM spread is made subject to distance if they really want to change LRMs. S/M/L -15%/-5%/+15%.
( 0-330m)/(330-600m)/(600-900m)

Heat I cannot fathom , Burst volleys are needed to function vs AMS at the cost of plenty heat already, Chain fire = lower DPS and AMS vulnerability. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. LRMs are already subpar at killing mechs.

What PGI lacks is a clear view of a ROLE for LRMs that does not encroach on other missile systems terrain.

[Dee Eight]

BROARL, on 15 January 2019 - 02:38 AM, said:

many relevant points have been made BUT could we please have more maps instead?
how many mech packs did we have to buy so that this debate could drag out i wonder...?
THANKYOU for trying but you will never make everyone (or maybe even anyone?) happy with a nerf here or a buff there.
new maps make people happy and happy people coin and the game can continue.

It costs several hundred thousand dollars of coding investment to do a new map. What would you rather PGI address... bugs/balance or new maps ?