323 replies to this topic

[AnHell86]

Hi,

May I suggest NOT to run any events/challenges during PTS? Zero percent participation, while the main MWO instance takes 5~30 seconds to get a match.

Thanks.

[RAGE PRO]

This change good only for atm.

[Shadowomega1]

Domalash, on 19 January 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

I'm like a few matches away from tier 3. Again only been playing a week. My bar is 90% full I think on tier 4 atm. Update, hit tier 3 today. Took some time but got there. Remember probability is you'll be on losing and winning team 50% of the time so tier should stay the same unless you're doing something right. And even if team loses and I did 1k dmg I still go up in pilot level. That happens a lot with lrm boat.

Ok, so you getting closer to seeing the shift in game play. In the upper tiers even with the over saturation of low skill players in T3 to T1, LRMs start seeing a decrease in effectiveness, as more skill pilots will be moving cover to cover as well as mechs with enhanced ECM being fielded. Also the increase in pilots calling out or aiming to kill UAVs, though a lot of T3s still don't aim for these when they are not being shot at.

[Mechwarrior 37]

Is it over? There have been zero players online. Right now there are no players.

I've yet to get a match.

[aardappelianen]

It seems to me that no matter how hard you nerf lrms it will never take away the sheer amount of lrms you can have incoming.
Wouldn't it be better if there was some how a cap on how many missiles can hit you per second, like increasing the spread based on how many missiles are sharing the same target, have missiles collide in midair and explode or even better yet the ability to shoot down missiles with any weapon?

Edited by aardappelianen, 21 January 2019 - 03:50 AM.

[Mechwarrior 37]

Still no one on......

The purpose of LRMs is the same as slingers 5,000 years ago. Or javelin throwers or archers. Later with Guns, howitzers and mortars to name a few.

Indirect fire. We do not think of it normally. Most people think that missile weapons fire mostly direct. This is false.

For many 1000's of years when two forces met only the first few ranks of men in front could attack the enemy. One thing "Westerners" have to understand is that we were brought up in the old Greek way of fighting as hoplites (Pre-Peloponnesian War).

The early Greek city-states would fight on a picked flat piece of land between two groups of heavily armored infantry. They were often battle of pushing and would often end with little loss of life. These are the first people who made fun of anyone using missile weapons.

If you understand the fable about the sour grapes, you might understand this

It was not "manly" which considering the Spartans were forced into being homosex...anyway.

The rest of the world used indirect fire and soon everyone would. Or die.

The Norman's archers were one of the main reason behind their victory at Hastings

Edited by Mechwarrior 37, 21 January 2019 - 09:29 AM.

[Hayek Lahiri]

Mechwarrior 37, on 21 January 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

Still no one on......

The purpose of LRMs is the same as slingers 5,000 years ago. Or javelin throwers or archers. Later with Guns, howitzers and mortars to name a few.

Indirect fire. We do not think of it normally. Most people think that missile weapons fire mostly direct. This is false.

For many 1000's of years when two forces met only the first few ranks of men in front could attack the enemy. One thing "Westerners" have to understand is that we were brought up in the old Greek way of fighting as hoplites (Pre-Peloponnesian War).

The early Greek city-states would fight on a picked flat piece of land between two groups of heavily armored infantry. They were often battle of pushing and would often end with little loss of life. These are the first people who made fun of anyone using missile weapons.

If you understand the fable about the sour grapes, you might understand this

It was not "manly" which considering the Spartans were forced into being homosex...anyway.

The rest of the world used indirect fire and soon everyone would. Or die.

The Norman's archers were one of the main reason behind their victory at Hastings

Do you seriously believe that Battletech should be/is realistic? Cause spoiler alert: it ain't.

>The early Greek city-states would fight on a picked flat piece of land between two groups of heavily armored infantry. They were often battle of pushing and would often end with little loss of life. These are the first people who made fun of anyone using missile weapons.

>If you understand the fable about the sour grapes, you might understand this

Bro, what you need to understand that this is a game. And games need to be fun. As of now, and ever since the dawn of closed beta, LRM boats were not fun to have. They don't share armor with the team and LRMs are hard countered with cover, ams, and ECM. No one is asking to have indirect fire removed at all or anything.

Also, you are comparing real-life war to a video game. Nobody is going to complain about fairness in war. That is a ridiculous statement.

>It was not "manly" which considering the Spartans were forced into being homosex...anyway.
Are... are you unironically equating cultural practices with video game design balance decisions and testosterone level checks? As well as saying it is "manly" to use LRMs in a virtual world?

Edited by UndeadKingofPopMichaelJackson, 21 January 2019 - 11:28 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

Mechwarrior 37, on 21 January 2019 - 08:32 AM, said:

Still no one on......

Event week end, 11:32 am est at the time of your post, the east coast got slammed by terrible weather over the weekend, west coast got hit also got nailed early last week to mid week their likely still digging out. Oh and Ace Combat 7 Dropped on friday, not sure if any updated mods for BT though.

[Mechwarrior 37]

UndeadKingofPopMichaelJackson, on 21 January 2019 - 11:20 AM, said:

Do you seriously believe that Battletech should be/is realistic? Cause spoiler alert: it ain't.

Wait, this is a game? lol. I was asked to write a short piece on Hoplites and "missile warfare". Thank you for your comments, I will take them into consideration.

Still waiting for a match.

[process]

SEARCHING

[ZortPointNarf]

Well I really tried to give this a test, couldn't get even a single game.
Based on what I've read here, I think it can work, but please tie it to Artemis, so that those that want to lob at range can and you provide a true boost to Artemis for those that wan't to. I do also like the altered fire angle proposed by somebody with Viking in their name, where it first goes up then straight in LOS mode.
On my Marauder 5D, I love carrying two LRM15's and the energy slots are medium wubs. With its tube geometry is excels at high fire up and over any mechs that may be in front of you during a push, works brilliantly.
For the Next PTS, please try to not run it with an event and maybe add a reward again to get people to participate.

Look forward to see where this will go and to tie into what DevNull said, please don't test multiple variables at the same time, if you want to change the angle of fire, test only that, don't mess with heat and ghost heat etc at the same time.

[Reno Blade]

aardappelianen, on 21 January 2019 - 03:50 AM, said:

It seems to me that no matter how hard you nerf lrms it will never take away the sheer amount of lrms you can have incoming.
Wouldn't it be better if there was some how a cap on how many missiles can hit you per second, like increasing the spread based on how many missiles are sharing the same target, have missiles collide in midair and explode or even better yet the ability to shoot down missiles with any weapon?

I've ran a Nova with 3 AMS and some of my team mates also had AMS, but on the PTS with 4 vs 4, where most of the testers used LRM boats with at least 60-80 missiles, the Nova survived maybe 5 volleys before getting legged to death (behind a hill, so indirect fire).


I am always torn of asking for more cooldown on strong weapons, or just increasting heat and spread for everything to increase TTK.
We will always have a boating issue if there is no penalty (GH doesnt help if you can fire 3 volleys of 2xLRM20 with only 0.5s between).

Imho this PTS does not change much and we could go live with it withou having much of an impact either way.
I would still recommend to nerf heat and spread overall (maybe 15-25%) and give Artemis a bit back to make it worth the upgrade (maybe 10-15%) to have a net nerf of ~5% for Artemis and 25% of non-Artemis missiles.
But at the same time, such nerf should then also apply to other weapons (at least SRM) to keep them close enough to LRMs after the nerf.

[Domalash]

Shadowomega1, on 20 January 2019 - 12:48 PM, said:

Ok, so you getting closer to seeing the shift in game play. In the upper tiers even with the over saturation of low skill players in T3 to T1, LRMs start seeing a decrease in effectiveness, as more skill pilots will be moving cover to cover as well as mechs with enhanced ECM being fielded. Also the increase in pilots calling out or aiming to kill UAVs, though a lot of T3s still don't aim for these when they are not being shot at.

That might be a little true but I just got my highest dmg game at 1680 damage. Also that's kind of true for all weapons. Better skilled players will know how to counter weapons. Also people are still not communicating like you say. It happens but it's kinda rare. And out of 12 players, it's not hard to find someone out of formation.

My biggest frustration is people thinking assaults are tanks. I don't know where they got this idea but it's totally ridiculous. They have what 80 extra torso armor at most? At say an average of 10dmg/sec that's 8 seconds of tanking against one other player, it's maybe 2 seconds against 6 players. Getting a pug to communicate and benefit from 2 to 8 seconds of tanking is impossible. But it's a common belief match after match.

The way I see it, assaults are slow but can do closer to 20dmg/sec and can carry a massive payload of ammo. They shouldn't be up front because they can't peek and react like faster mechs with more speed an acceleration. Lighter mechs should be forming a line or arc and laying down fire to prevent the enemy from advancing/flanking and forcing them to stay behind cover or get slaughtered by concentrated fire.

Like pawns in chess lighter mechs have much less value and should be the first ones sacrificed not the assaults with the most firepower. Like hello.

What really crazy is how mad people get and how right they think they are. They've played for so long with this idea that nothing I say can change their minds. I guess that's understandable but maybe if more people realize what I'm saying or if PGI make it more obvious that assaults are not meant to absorb damage for others then maybe things will change.

I wouldn't mind assaults being tanks. That might be a great thing. But give me 2k armor and 10x 500 heals. Slap in a mech crew that can do on the fly repairs over time. Imagine that if you could find cover for 10 seconds you get a good repair. Then I could tank all day long.

And all this talk about being faithful to the lore is hogwash to me. How many people really care about that versus having a well balanced game. Lore should never come first in my opinion. Things changes. The past is the past. Lets move on.

And the backseat driving in this game is another thing. I don't mind things being pointed out but you don't have to tell me my missiles are hitting rocks or that I'm getting hit from behind. My armor is on my back, it's a tactic. My missiles are sometimes suppression fire. You know in the movies when they say cover me and they shoot at nothing. Ya well that's what I'm doing. I'm keeping the pressure on. I'm making that sound incoming missiles detected go off over and over. But also sometimes the missiles make it over the rocks and you just don't know unless you fire. So anyways, I wish people would stop assuming stuff and thinking they know everything. But I appreciate they are trying to help I guess and just don't understand.

Edited by Domalash, 23 January 2019 - 04:48 AM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Domalash, on 23 January 2019 - 04:27 AM, said:

My biggest frustration is people thinking assaults are tanks. I don't know where they got this idea but it's totally ridiculous. They have what 80 extra torso armor at most? At say an average of 10dmg/sec that's 8 seconds of tanking against one other player, it's maybe 2 seconds against 6 players. Getting a pug to communicate and benefit from 2 to 8 seconds of tanking is impossible. But it's a common belief match after match.

The way I see it, assaults are slow but can do closer to 20dmg/sec and can carry a massive payload of ammo. They shouldn't be up front because they can't peek and react like faster mechs with more speed an acceleration. Lighter mechs should be forming a line or arc and laying down fire to prevent the enemy from advancing/flanking and forcing them to stay behind cover or get slaughtered by concentrated fire.

Like pawns in chess lighter mechs have much less value and should be the first ones sacrificed not the assaults with the most firepower. Like hello.

What really crazy is how mad people get and how right they think they are. They've played for so long with this idea that nothing I say can change their minds. I guess that's understandable but maybe if more people realize what I'm saying or if PGI make it more obvious that assaults are not meant to absorb damage for others then maybe things will change.

And the backseat driving in this game is another thing. I don't mind things being pointed out but you don't have to tell me my missiles are hitting rocks or that I'm getting hit from behind. My armor is on my back, it's a tactic. My missiles are sometimes suppression fire. You know in the movies when they say cover me and they shoot at nothing. Ya well that's what I'm doing. I'm keeping the pressure on. I'm making that sound incoming missiles detected go off over and over. But also sometimes the missiles make it over the rocks and you just don't know unless you fire. So anyways, I wish people would stop assuming stuff and thinking they know everything. But I appreciate they are trying to help I guess and just don't understand.

Your one assault leading the push scenario is not reasonable because even an unskilled enemy will focus fire on the one assault instantly annihilating him. The team doesn't expect one assault to push upfront like that.. when a call for a push is made, the assaults are expected to saddle up and push together.. side by side.. now THIS is formidable. The enemy has these choices.. panic and run while your team gets some back shots in.. start shooting randomly at the incoming enemy in which case the assaults will live long enough to do serious damage.. or focus fire one assault at a time in which case that one assault should live long enough so that the other 2 do equivalent or more damage to them.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 23 January 2019 - 08:17 AM.

[WakeAndBake]

Do you have to join others to play a match?

[D V Devnull]

WakeAndBake, on 23 January 2019 - 10:24 AM, said:

Do you have to join others to play a match?

Nope. There just has to be other people in the queue. There probably isn't anyone on the PTS at this time. Either that, or there's very few, and they're all in a Match already.

~D. V. "Grouping is NOT required to get PTS Match" Devnull

[Shadowomega1]

Domalash, on 23 January 2019 - 04:27 AM, said:

That might be a little true but I just got my highest dmg game at 1680 damage. Also that's kind of true for all weapons. Better skilled players will know how to counter weapons. Also people are still not communicating like you say. It happens but it's kinda rare. And out of 12 players, it's not hard to find someone out of formation.

My biggest frustration is people thinking assaults are tanks. I don't know where they got this idea but it's totally ridiculous. They have what 80 extra torso armor at most? At say an average of 10dmg/sec that's 8 seconds of tanking against one other player, it's maybe 2 seconds against 6 players. Getting a pug to communicate and benefit from 2 to 8 seconds of tanking is impossible. But it's a common belief match after match.

The way I see it, assaults are slow but can do closer to 20dmg/sec and can carry a massive payload of ammo. They shouldn't be up front because they can't peek and react like faster mechs with more speed an acceleration. Lighter mechs should be forming a line or arc and laying down fire to prevent the enemy from advancing/flanking and forcing them to stay behind cover or get slaughtered by concentrated fire.

Like pawns in chess lighter mechs have much less value and should be the first ones sacrificed not the assaults with the most firepower. Like hello.

What really crazy is how mad people get and how right they think they are. They've played for so long with this idea that nothing I say can change their minds. I guess that's understandable but maybe if more people realize what I'm saying or if PGI make it more obvious that assaults are not meant to absorb damage for others then maybe things will change.

I wouldn't mind assaults being tanks. That might be a great thing. But give me 2k armor and 10x 500 heals. Slap in a mech crew that can do on the fly repairs over time. Imagine that if you could find cover for 10 seconds you get a good repair. Then I could tank all day long.

And all this talk about being faithful to the lore is hogwash to me. How many people really care about that versus having a well balanced game. Lore should never come first in my opinion. Things changes. The past is the past. Lets move on.

And the backseat driving in this game is another thing. I don't mind things being pointed out but you don't have to tell me my missiles are hitting rocks or that I'm getting hit from behind. My armor is on my back, it's a tactic. My missiles are sometimes suppression fire. You know in the movies when they say cover me and they shoot at nothing. Ya well that's what I'm doing. I'm keeping the pressure on. I'm making that sound incoming missiles detected go off over and over. But also sometimes the missiles make it over the rocks and you just don't know unless you fire. So anyways, I wish people would stop assuming stuff and thinking they know everything. But I appreciate they are trying to help I guess and just don't understand.

Let's break this down. While 1680 damage is good but how effective was it, was it to 3 Enemies all of them twisting properly to keep themselves alive, or was it to 3 enemies who didn't twist at all but all the damage went to different components or did that damage get spread over 10 to 12 mechs over their 7-8 components , or was it 8 mechs or less to their critical areas. A perfect example of Effective damage that comes to mind, is a match were I had 8 killing blows, 8 kill most damage dealt, 8 solo kill 995 points of damage, in a match were I quickly cored them out rapidly with quad ac 10s in a ANH-1A. This points out waiting for torso shots and keeping focus on those critical areas and not just firing to deal damage.

As for the call outs it does get better in the upper tiers but it also comes down to the MM putting you on a team that will use coms as well as time of day. I will often call targets and suggest firing locations for the team (though these seem to be flat out ignored most of the time), if I am in a match and not talking I am likely ticked off due to repeated drops of losing in stomps and being the only one to deal any real damage or earn the only kill/kmdds (if any is made) the team has in the end.

Yes the assaults are tanks, however one walking out of cover by itself right into the enemy firing line is straight up stupidity. The only time this works is if they all push at the same time, and said pilots know how to effectively shield themselves from effective fire. In fact Deadlose put it quite well on the assaults. Assaults like Lights have to fully understand their mech as well as the map and what to look for on said map to be effective, as their positioning is key to their success.

Calling lights pawns in a game of chess, definitely shows you don't understand how to play lights. There is a reason people hate on good Arctic Cheetah, Piranha, Locust, Flea, Wolfhound, and Mist Lynx pilots, because they will dance around the enemy force and make them look like fools. They accomplish this by ripping through the rear armor and taking out components or by getting the enemy to turn their back to deal with the new threat while forgetting that the enemy team is pushing their way from the direction they were originally looking. All this while evading the bulk of return fire.

Calling out missiles that are hitting rocks is something pilots do as a lot of time it LRM mechs have been mag dumping into the wall right in front of them (yes I have seen this while go up in theirs) or having the whole volley hit the archway right above their head. (This however is likely someone behind the LRM boat not someone spectating). As for calling out enemies behind I have seen pilots get shot in the rear come to a complete stop and start looking around for the person shooting them but never turn around to shoot back. However if this is called out and no one is spectating it is likely due to the fact the mech they saw could one shot core a mech out.

[Domalash]

You're missing the point I was making. It doesn't matter if the damage is effective or not, it gets me cash, xp and pilot tiers. If I get 500 damage and my team loses I stay = with no change to pilot tier. If I get 800+ I go up in pilot tier even if my team loses. If I get 1600 damage and my team wins I get about 500,000 cash with my bonuses.

I also didn't mean to imply that lights are useless pawns. But they do have less fire power and in a game of numbers I think it's key to keep as much fire power for as long as possible. Also lights can get out of the way of a push, the assaults can't. So if a few lights go down but keep the enemy from pushing too much too quickly and the assaults soften up the whole enemy by massive amounts, I think that's worth the trade. Of course light pilots might think the opposite. But what's logical and what's working for me?

As for pushing together I'm guessing that's great for faction play where people communicate all the time. But communication sucks in quick matches a majority of the time. You can't rely on it. You basically have to look out for yourself if you want to get anywhere. Or you'll just keep getting good and bad teams one after the other. It's just random. It may sound like a crap attitude but it's just reality. And it's not like I'm not firing during a push. I may not advance but sometimes I might. But there's just no benefit sometimes coming out of good cover. I'm still putting fire pressure. I might not be taking a share of the damage but my value is so much higher it doesn't make sense to. And the real problem is that it's not like it's always an equal share. I'd love to help my team and take a share but it doesn't make sense. It does get us wins. Staying alive and softening the enemy by 1600 damage gets us wins. Is it all effective damage no of course not. But good players can see a leg is out or whatever.

What I'm trying to point out is what is working 80% of the time. It's not perfect but that's a wicked percentage. It is a guess. It may be more or less but I feel like it's undeniable the best option. When I realized that solaris city sucked for me but that it was a small percentage of the games I realized that the power of lrms. There's other maps that suck and that get played alot. I'm trying to adapt to those. But even with them I still progress non stop.

Of course I get blamed for all the 20% of the lost games. People flip out alot. But I just don't care because I know for almost a fact it's working on a percentage basis way better than the alternative. I don't think the lrm nerf would even be considered if it wasn't the best option and making people cry with good reason. It's overpowered. Makes sense to put them in assaults because of it.

As for the calling out hitting rocks I don't really care about that. Was just venting lol. Again I think it's good to do when you know you have a lead and ammo to spare etc. Lot of factors involved and spectators just assume things but that's ok. Don't matter.

Anyways, cry and moan and think I'm wrong all you want but I know I'm right because the numbers tell me. Try it and I bet you see the difference. It's certainly not my skill that's getting me wins. lol So I'm done trying to convince you all. I'll just keep winning and laughing all the way to the bank. Until the nerf at least.

[Shadowomega1]

Match score is the determining factor in XP and C-Bills earned. While damage indirectly gives c-bills but at a reduced rate compared to Kills, KMDD, and Solo Kills. I believe the value for damage to Match score is between 4 damage to 1 match point 8 damage to 1 match point. Other big values are component destroyed, and AMS score aka Missile destroyed.

[testhero]

Shanrak, on 14 January 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

And dedicated lurmers will never understand how IDF takes all the fun out of the game for everyone else. They're just chortling in the back enjoying their meaningless damage numbers. IDF makes the game grind to a halt, makes everyone take cover until the lurmer changes targets. Being the only IDF weapon, it means they are the only ones who can shoot with impunity, a completely one sided game play. Also, lurmers will always vote polar for the lack of cover, a map no one else enjoys, again taking the fun out of the game for anyone else.

Someone suggested a while ago that L.R.M. fire should make you target-able so lurmers can shoot back at other lurmers. At least that way they'll get a taste of their own medicine.

Unless someone on the enemy team locks a target the Missile boat will have to poke out enough too expose at least the head of their mech to get a target to lock, giving you the opportunity to shoot them. If they are getting a target lock from a friendly mech that mech is exposing itself so you can shoot it instead.

Todd Marshall, on 15 January 2019 - 06:45 AM, said:

I've made an experiment, running near exclusively lurms, on an alt account. The account is now rated in the top 0,4% percentile of all players, via the Jarl's list. The experiment started in Tier 2. I should not be able to do this.
For those willing to check for proof, the account's name is Peter Halcyon.
Lurms aren't hard to play, if anything the lock on enabled me to spend more time reading the Battlegrid, anticipating enemy movement and to act accordingly. The D.P.S. is out of this world. If targets are under E.C.M./A.M.S. shoot a different target.
If people under-run your minimum range you've done it wrong, or the game is near a loss anyways.

...0,4 percentile...
Granted, I used only C-L.R.MS, but seriously.
Stop crying for buffs to an outrageously overpowered weapons system.

Todd Marshal recognize your Call sign. You have been playing for a few years now and are you not normally in the top 1% usually. Not too surprising then that using the most effective missile system in the game with a good working knowledge of the Match score and Tier system that you climbed quickly into the top 1% again.
Why should you not be able too do this?

Peter Halcyon, on 15 January 2019 - 07:04 AM, said:

Yea. The match score system is easy to game.

Yes the match score system has been a problem for a long time now.

Domenoth, on 17 January 2019 - 10:04 AM, said:

Okay, thought it might be a Stalker.

Stalkers, Catapults, Archers, Kintaros, and maybe something else I'm forgetting have "bay doors". There is a button in settings that lets you toggle the doors open or closed. If you don't use the toggle, they open (with a delay) when you fire then close again. If you use the toggle, they stay open until you toggle them closed again.

I believe this is the cause of your delay. In reality, dumb fire is actually quite responsive.

Ed Steele, on 19 January 2019 - 01:05 AM, said:

In quick-play it is difficult to do, but if every Mech equips either a Laser A.M.S. or a regular A.M.S. with at least a half ton of ammo, then L.R.M.s are not so bad. Also make sure you spec into at least one point of Radar Deprivation, so they lose their lock when you do get behind cover.

L.R.Ms have been part of BATTLETECH / MECHWARRIOR since the beginning, so they are a fact of life in this game, but there are counters, people just don't like to use them.

Centurions are the other mech with bay doors but they were removed along with the kintaro's bay doors a long time ago. [/] is the default toggle key and there are small lights on the window pillars that change from red to green as they open and close. Bay Doors used to provide a boost too armour But I am not sure if that continued past the skill system update.

Radar deprivation is very important to breaking target locks. Each Skill node you open in Radar Dep. cancels one of the two Target Decay Skill Nodes all Missile Boat pilots will have unlocked. It will also almost instantly drop the target lock of most spotting Mech as soon as you move out of its LoS as most other mechs do not Unlock Target decay skill nodes (the exception will be dedicated spotting/N.A.R.C. scout mechs)

Moving within 90m of a Mech with working E.C.M. (in deception mode) will also break target lock

Moving out of radar range and shutting down are the other two counters but are harder to use