100 replies to this topic

[CeeKay Boques]

Right. Replace the other player in the video, pretend he's An LRM10 4ml and an AC10 round hitting at the same time. The point is, body contact causes ragdoll type fall damage.

Where, how, when you get hit matters, is what I'm saying.

Believe me, I understand that "If Mech Takes 25 damage, and RNG # = over 10- Pilot skill, then execute fall animation". would be easier. I get that. I'm saying that if you get hit in an extended, running leg with a gauss slug, that leg might cross over the other and trip you, because physics says so.

[ManDaisy]

There is a lot more to knock down then 20 pts of damage . For example from table top the mechs weight was considered into the formula, and also the piloting skill.

Also unlike table top, were are dealing with real time combat.

Instead of a flat 20 damage for a flat knockdown chance, the game should take into account, weight, rate of of damage, and weapon type, in order to calculate % "chance to tip over".

When I say rate of damage, I mean every hit from a weapon should be like tipping a scale, if you don't do enough at once eventually the scale will rebalance, but if you do enough to overcome the gradual rebalance over time, and even have excess, you can tip the scale over. In essence weapons should have a push factor, and mech should have a rebalance factor. Enough pushing combined to overcome the balance is what tips a mech.





1st video 1:00 mark

Also thinking, with each psuh, it move the mech by a couple of degrees, if the mech violates and Y degree angle it cant reblance and tips. Also like big dog, mechs being pushed in the direction of the attack would be neat.
2nd video
:35 second mark

Whether a shot hits the lower torso or the upper torso, would also change how much leverage was applied to the mech. ragdoll physics would really have to come into play.

Edited by ManDaisy, 29 December 2011 - 04:47 PM.

[Pht]

Aegis Kleais™, on 28 December 2011 - 09:05 PM, said:

But none of that answers any questions.

Of course a DFA is enough kinetic force to topple a Mech. But is weapons fire has been shown in previous games to do likewise. So is it due to gyroscopic overloads, where the gyro cannot overcome and counter the force, or is it that the actuators are over-exerted and end up failing (or some combination of it both)

How can armor on your Mech, exploding from damage, be of a higher kinetic push on the Mech than the initial weapon that hit it? Where's Bill Nye when you need him?

I can't answer for why they decided to have it work like that in the previous MW games: it could very well have just been for arbitrary "cool factor" or some such. In mw4 knockdown is really odd and I don't think we ever really pinned down the "why and how" of it. Sometimes you could absorb an alpha of over 100 points of damage and not miss a step, sometimes a single LBX 20 would knock you over...

As far as in the BTU? ... again, it's not a "Higher kinetic push" and it's not the energy imparted that does the unbalancing.

What does the unbalancing is that the 'mechs balance sensing mechanisms and the physical gyro assembly cannot react fast enough to compensate for what amounts to an instant loss of weight, a loss of weight that the programmers can't really compensate for in the 'mechs MMSS (movement subsystem) and gyro computers. By the time your 'mech "sees" the incoming fire, it's too late. The weapons fly to quickly; and with missiles, there's the unpredictability factor of knowing where they're going to hit (which also applies to direct fire weapons somewhat).

It's not that the incoming weapons fire hits your mech so hard, its that it is, in human terms, "completely unexpected change of balance." This is also why the damage listed does not just instantly "knock the 'mech over" but rather unbalances the 'mech, with the pilot getting a chance to keep the 'mech from falling over.

verybad, on 28 December 2011 - 09:57 PM, said:

Hey Pht nice to see you over here.

Ah, don't lie. You're just happy to see me picking on someone else!

Skygrunt, on 29 December 2011 - 12:08 AM, said:

I disagree with the 20 damage equals knock over. That would mean any thing that could knock a flea over could topple an atlas. That just doesn't make much sense.

It's not "guaranteed knockover" - it's rather just that it unbalances your 'mech and you might fall over, depending on what your pilot does.

Edited by Pht, 29 December 2011 - 05:30 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The general consensus reached over the first two pages of this thread were that for the TT rules to make sense in a game would require the mech (for whatever reason) when hit by that amount (or greater) of damage would be "rocked". The lighter the mech, the greater the effect. The pilot would need to react to this to prevent the mech from falling over. If the "knockdown" force was to great or the pilot didn't react well enough the mech would fall down. No dice or RNG's involved, just what we considered a reasonable application of the rule to a game.
What's the problem?

Edited by Nik Van Rhijn, 29 December 2011 - 05:38 PM.

[GaussDragon]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 29 December 2011 - 05:38 PM, said:

The general consensus reached over the first two pages of this thread were that for the TT rules to make sense in a game would require the mech (for whatever reason) when hit by that amount (or greater) of damage would be "rocked". The lighter the mech, the greater the effect. The pilot would need to react to this to prevent the mech from falling over. If the "knockdown" force was to great or the pilot didn't react well enough the mech would fall down. No dice or RNG's involved, just what we considered a reasonable application of the rule to a game.
What's the problem?

[Duke Pitt]

Have we considered what happens if simultaneous impacts combine to 20dam (or X amount required for knockdown)? It is pretty plausible that at some point in the heat of battle a target could be struck by say... a large laser and an AC10 at the same time maybe even from two opposing mechs at the same time, what then?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Depends on where they're coming from. In this case, nothing, other some juddering of the mech as the damage is only 18. The game will know where the shots are coming from. If it was two lots of damage 180 degrees apart then they would nullify any knockdown effect.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

@ GaussDragon - why would you be surprised, it happens to all threads, just this one got ignored for a while

[Duke Pitt]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 29 December 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Depends on where they're coming from. In this case, nothing, other some juddering of the mech as the damage is only 18. The game will know where the shots are coming from. If it was two lots of damage 180 degrees apart then they would nullify any knockdown effect.

I get what your saying in terms of the 180 degree impacts, but the lg laser and AC10 was just an example (I am not 100% familiar with all BT damage values) so instances aside from the aforementioned "180" I feel could still result in a knockdown.

[verybad]

Considering that physics will be used in the game, having each projectile and type of explosion being given a given force, both for recoil and impact, is not out of the question. A player that upgrades their avatar's piloting skill might be able to withstand impact better, and a player that upgrades their avatar's gunnery skill might handle recoil better. These would be skills that provide a reduction in that kind of force. The nice thing about that is that those forces (connected to weapon hits, charging, etc) will also do ...stuff to the environment. They can also provide different feeling forces (eg a PPC hit might be different from a laser hit, from AC hits, from missile hits.) based on the speed of the impact, and it's longevity (eg a beam weapon or multiple missiles).

This could also tie directly into gyro damage or quality of the gyro.

[CeeKay Boques]

I will know that knockdown is done well when you hit me hard, I begin to topple, lean into a building, am able to right myself, but the building topples.

I don't know how I would "right myself" but my goodness that would be great.

[VYCanis]

I think something thing to keep in mind is that in MW3 and MW4, Knockdowns came with no warning. You just suddenly saw sky or dirt and there was nothing you could do about it, other than know you were about to have a lot of free hits delivered upon you.

If however a pilot could be clued in to how well balanced their mech was and could do stuff about it, it would take some of the seemingly random chance out of it. Players would know more or less why they fell over, know that they done goofed, and take better measures next time.

For example. Say that balance was like a fast regenerating point value. Lets call them gyro points. Certain things add to the regen rate, certain things detract. This could be visually represented by a number of visual warnings, simply be an audio queue in the form of different pitches of gyro whine noise at certain intervals, or both

anyhow, lets say standing stationary increased your gyro point regen speed, the faster you move, the slower the regen rate.
-taking a hit subtracts from however many points you have available
-losing arms or side torsos subtracts significantly
-having leg actuators pop subtracts and lowers your gyro point regen
-taking gyro damage subtracts and lowers regen substantially
-jump jetting substracts and lowers regen until after landing
-melee hits and giving melee attacks subtracts, different attacks and different tonnages subtract differently. (kicks more risky than punches)
-having a bigger mech increases your gyro point total (object at rest, stays at rest)
-having a smaller mech increases regen speed (less mass to move around makes it more nimble and able to recover faster)
-Firing hard recoil weapons like big ACs and gauss rifles while adding kinectic knock to your opponent, also subtracts a bit from your gyro points. Not enough to knock you over, but enough where a thunderhawk that just alphaed its 3 gausses will be easier to knock over than another thunderhawk that hadn't.
-Moving over broken rubble terrain lowers regen rate
-Moving on soft ground increases regen rate.
-crouching increases regen rate significantly
-pressing up against a wall or other solid object also increases regen rate.

Whenever you get low on gyro points heavy impacts might stagger you into a "big dog getting kicked and rebalancing" type situation. Or other such heavy impact fx.
If you suddenly get brought into negative gyro points, and can't regen your way out of the negatives before some x amount of time, then you get full blown knocked over.

if anyone played total annihilation or supreme commander, think something on terms of the metal/energy meters. Where you had inflow and outflow. Certain things would increase regeneration (building a fusion reactor, building metal extractors) while numerous other things would subtract (building stuff, firing certain high energy weapons) So long as you were in the green you were good, as soon as your regen rate went red and you hit zero, you had a problem.

Edited by VYCanis, 29 December 2011 - 07:00 PM.

[Duke Pitt]

verybad, on 29 December 2011 - 06:27 PM, said:

Considering that physics will be used in the game, having each projectile and type of explosion being given a given force, both for recoil and impact, is not out of the question. A player that upgrades their avatar's piloting skill might be able to withstand impact better, and a player that upgrades their avatar's gunnery skill might handle recoil better. These would be skills that provide a reduction in that kind of force. The nice thing about that is that those forces (connected to weapon hits, charging, etc) will also do ...stuff to the environment. They can also provide different feeling forces (eg a PPC hit might be different from a laser hit, from AC hits, from missile hits.) based on the speed of the impact, and it's longevity (eg a beam weapon or multiple missiles).

This could also tie directly into gyro damage or quality of the gyro.

That all sounds great but I hope they make solid stat points so you know just what your "stability" factor is so that we don't have to bust out calculators to figure out those numbers.

[verybad]

There's a lot of things that could affect them, for instance, being on a steep hill, being on snow, damage, high quantity of hits in a short period of time, etc.

I would rather it got to a point where you reccognized that stability was a good thing and that certain mechs and gyros were more stable, but that figguring out exact numbers was a waste of time due to the number of factors.

Edited by verybad, 29 December 2011 - 07:00 PM.

[Duke Pitt]

I was thinking more in terms of the "pilot skill" + mech stats = X stability. Being on a hill or other terrain considerations would obviously be a case by case variable. When I was talking about knowing the stat. I didn't mean like having a dial in your cockpit, I meant it to be something you would see in your pilot info screens.

[Xhaleon]

VYCanis, on 29 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

snippy snippy

A regenerating "health" system seems like it could accept pilot skills as a modifier quite easily too...

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I can see Pht's point with his gyro points but I think there is a simpler (more arcade- ouch) way of doing this perhaps. Where a mech gets hit with sufficient damage (ie well over 20) so as to cause a knockdown, the mech should gyrate or something (perhaps with a red flashing light in the cockpit) and you would try to counteract the motion and stay upright. Fail and you go down. This doesn't necessarily apply if the hit was your leg being blown off, unless you have such innate balance and ability as to perch on one leg .

[MaddMaxx]

Dlardrageth, on 29 December 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Assuming it is such a devastating feat to be knocked down at 600-700 meter range by itself (beckons the question: "Why?", not like you are dead, just prone), what is the alternative? Eliminating knockdown for good? That is way off any realism, especially with the inclusion of melee combat which is to be in the game according to PGI.

So a Charger running into a Locust at full speed with a proper charge does nothing but grind a few metal plates, and both keep standing up facing each other? Right... how useful... I'd rather have a somewhat RNG-based knockdown mechanics in game than a completely over the top sillyness like Mechs being immune to simple laws of physics. It's not like you have some sort of immunity in your little car in real life when a ten-wheeler truck smashes into you. Why should you in game?

It's not a good balance if assault Mechs can pretty much oneshot most of the lighter Mechs on the battlefield with ease, but it's neither when a 20-ton Mech going at full speed sustains a perfect hit by double LRM20 salvos and just shrugs it off like it never happened to him. And as a dislike for RNG woul eliminate anything but either full missile salve hit or a total miss, that would mean that 20-ton Mech just "tanked" 40 damage points and just keeps moving on like it never happened, right?

I guess I would have to put his under "Be careful for what it is you wish!". The Beast, once unleashed, cares not for whom he eats.

[Yeach]

My question is does knock occur from the 20 point damage done in a 10 second span (like TT maybe)
or is the knock done on an instant 20 point damage?

Edited by Yeach, 02 January 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Thats down to how PGI want to implement it.