284 replies to this topic

[Buenaventura]

I'd add using tonnage and/or weight class as a balancing factor instead of a modified battle/combat value system.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 20 January 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

Recall when it was hilariously called "a BattleTech game".
Did you forget?

No, I didn't. I also remember and recognize that MechWarrior is a spin-off of BattleTech.

Quote

Convergence

Not an issue for a shooter.

Quote

Free c3

Fair.

Quote

Jesus box ecm

Would you prefer it if they just called it Angel ECM so it's right? No matter, hasn't been a Jesus-box for a few years, now.

Quote

Power creep hardpoint bloat

Blame the TROs for introducing flatly-superior 'Mechs.

Quote

Clans.

Again, blame the TROs.

Quote

Different weapon cool down Shall I go on?

Necessary distinction in an FPS.

Shall I go on?

[HammerMaster]

Y E O N N E, on 20 January 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

No, I didn't. I also remember and recognize that MechWarrior is a spin-off of BattleTech.



Not an issue for a shooter.



Fair.



Would you prefer it if they just called it Angel ECM so it's right? No matter, hasn't been a Jesus-box for a few years, now.



Blame the TROs for introducing flatly-superior 'Mechs.



Again, blame the TROs.



Necessary distinction in an FPS.

Shall I go on?

Please do.
I have more.

What source was used in MechWarrior when you piloted a Battlemech?
Either source BattleTech or Solaris ruleset sir.

And yes it was "a BattleTech game" TM. That was removed shortly before the "S7" re-branding. I'm sure someone has a pic still.

Weapons cooldowns normalized would fix a few issues with small weapons feeling op in knife range.

TROs. Ha! Gawdawful art. Classic!

Oh yes. Most most important.
Convergence isn't an issue for "a fps" shooter.
It IS A PROBLEM for this BattleTech shooter.

Edited by HammerMaster, 20 January 2019 - 02:28 PM.

[dr3dnought]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 19 January 2019 - 10:37 PM, said:

Of course maybe I'm just missing something.

I'd go with that tbh. since you don't even play light mechs.

[Koniving]

Careful Method, on 20 January 2019 - 08:06 AM, said:

Oh yeah, make machine gun ammo significantly less rounds per ton.

200 per ton according to tabletop. I dunno, carrying 2 tons of ammo and having 4 million rounds seems excessive.

Signed,
Dr. Evil

Am not entering or reading the debate.

But to point something out...
While MWO's standards of tons of ammunition is excessive, the "200 units" of an MG under basic rules would last up to 200 turns, or 2,000 seconds, or 33 minutes and 33-ish seconds..

So there's that to think about. This of course depends on how you imagine the machine gun firing, but under basic rules you fire once per turn. And nobody shoots a single bullet of a half ton gun and expects the same damage as done by a 6 ton gun.

As such, one can surmise the ammo available per ton in MWO, which doesn't last much more than 20 seconds of continuous fire for a single MG... is pretty insufficient. It exploding is also quite a joke when it does explode.

To make up for it, MWO's MGs do a lot more than 2 damage per 10 seconds. But... it does 20 damage per ton...
A ton of MG ammo in Battletech does 400 damage per ton.

Unless I'm mistaken about how the ammo is consumed, but looking it up in Battletech's Battlemech Manual (2018 which is a consolidation of all rules associated with mechs for everything from movement, weapons, etc.) it doesn't mention it as consuming multiple units of ammo. I do know that under burst fire rules, each "time" consumes 3 units but that's going beyond basic rules (and pumping around 9+ damage per MG once you also add in direct blows.)

Edited by Koniving, 20 January 2019 - 03:17 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Kalimaster, on 19 January 2019 - 09:23 AM, said:

Solaris reset. Thanks

That comes at the end of season.

Which coincidentally is in the next day or so.

[Antares102]

HammerMaster, on 20 January 2019 - 01:44 PM, said:

And that is the root of many of our issues.
Thanks for pointing that out.

Bullsh|it... tabletop has a completely different design goal which is based on throwing dice.
We dont have dice here and this is way many things have to change otherwise the game would be unplayable.
Weapon hardpoints are also in invention of PGI (like in other titles before) which are originally not in the construction rules.
Ghost heat is also not in and if it and weapon hardpoints were not in the next thing I would build was a fast mech with 40 small laser one or two-shoting everything.

Battletech tabletop contains so many flaws especially when it comes to weapon performance and rules that make tanks outright inferior to mechs just for the sake of the game.

Lore-tards just dont want to understand that Battletech tabletop is a badly designed game but which still delivers what it was supposed to: having fun together.

Back in the days when we played Btech tabletop our optimal build for a two map sized battlefield was a clan 50 ton quad (bonus on pilot throws) with 5x MPL + TC speed 7/11/7. When jumping the +3 on our own attack role for the jumping was neutralized by the MPL+TC and you could always end up in a wood field giving the opponent at least +4 to his attack role. We played several games with a star of these vs a 800t IS company of 3025 mechs. The clans always won because the IS just could not hit any of the clans.
Clan pilots were 3/4 and IS were 4/5.

Edited by Antares102, 20 January 2019 - 05:11 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Antares102, on 20 January 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bullsh|it... tabletop has a completely different design goal which is based on throwing dice.

Yep - I just can't work out why people continually try and play the battle tech / lore / table top argument when we are playing a FPS that is much more intricate when it comes to balance than the randomness of a dice roll.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Y E O N N E, on 20 January 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

It's an Assassin from 250 meters away. And it has ECM, making it easier to sneak with. That most WLF pilots spend too much time repositioning instead of shooting is probably why you don't see those results as often; PIRs cannot do that, they have to brawl. As long as the rest of the PIR's team is engaged, too, it will be difficult to peel it off and it will have nice numbers at the end. I do the same thing in my 7SPL Flea, 6HMG Javelin, and 4SRM2 Locust. It's all about exploiting aggro.

Personally, I don't interpret PGI taking action as proof of a problem, considering their colorful history of taking action on things that didn't need it and on taking the wrong actions even on things that did.

I interpret PGI taking action as proof of a problem, it's their solutions to the problems they detect that are janky.

Again, I believe you that the Wolfhound is a primo quality mech. What I don't believe is that the Piranha wasn't a problem.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

dr3dnought, on 20 January 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

I'd go with that tbh. since you don't even play light mechs.

Suit yourself. I have played lights once upon a time, I play 45 tonners, you can claim to have woes as a current light pilot that no-one else could understand if you like. But I think your probably exaggerating. There's crap mechs in the light bracket certainly, there's a higher skill floor too sure, I've played them before they're tricky, but they're not vastly underperforming with the pre-nerf piranha situated as their hero.

Am I wrong?

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 20 January 2019 - 07:39 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Antares102, on 20 January 2019 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bullsh|it... tabletop has a completely different design goal which is based on throwing dice.
We dont have dice here and this is way many things have to change otherwise the game would be unplayable.
Weapon hardpoints are also in invention of PGI (like in other titles before) which are originally not in the construction rules.
Ghost heat is also not in and if it and weapon hardpoints were not in the next thing I would build was a fast mech with 40 small laser one or two-shoting everything.

Battletech tabletop contains so many flaws especially when it comes to weapon performance and rules that make tanks outright inferior to mechs just for the sake of the game.

Lore-tards just dont want to understand that Battletech tabletop is a badly designed game but which still delivers what it was supposed to: having fun together.

Back in the days when we played Btech tabletop our optimal build for a two map sized battlefield was a clan 50 ton quad (bonus on pilot throws) with 5x MPL + TC speed 7/11/7. When jumping the +3 on our own attack role for the jumping was neutralized by the MPL+TC and you could always end up in a wood field giving the opponent at least +4 to his attack role. We played several games with a star of these vs a 800t IS company of 3025 mechs. The clans always won because the IS just could not hit any of the clans.
Clan pilots were 3/4 and IS were 4/5.

Who are you and Ash mad at?
Where did the dice touch you?


You openly admit to homebrew min/max build. AND CLAN TRASH AT THAT!

What did you expect?

True campaign build rules and costs prohibits that filth.

justcallme A S H, on 20 January 2019 - 06:33 PM, said:

Yep - I just can't work out why people continually try and play the battle tech / lore / table top argument when we are playing a FPS that is much more intricate when it comes to balance than the randomness of a dice roll.

More intricate? Please.

I guess my real question to you two is:


Why do you hate:

?

Edited by HammerMaster, 20 January 2019 - 08:14 PM.

[Smokeviper]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 19 January 2019 - 02:39 PM, said:

so, and in your words:
the piranha is effective.
you wanna change that.
got it.

there are so many things -bad- about the pir.. once you get one-shotted from even not so scary mechs, once you run into a wall cause it turns like a brick (for a light), once you run blindly into that one mech that IS prepared for you, since he saw you and you did not, thx to your abysmal field of view.. after all of that and more, you can still cry that it's OP
you people should play it and find out. seriously. it's dirt-cheap. everybody: go buy one and have fun with that OP-mech.

and just for clarity: I too don't like a Pir in my butt.
but I realise that -I- have done something wrong when it catches me isolated. situational awareness or at least the will to learn when you lack it, is a very underrated skill in this game.

All mechs are effective if played properly. Some designs more so than others. The piranha so much so that I see them played almost every match more than any other current light hence "more effective" than any other light. You may disagree, however apparently I share the same view as PGI as per the patch. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Grinner, flea, and urbie be next in some fashion. *shrug* Every patch the forums are filled with the wailing of people whos sacred cow gets skewered, I feel for the moderators.

[dario03]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 20 January 2019 - 07:18 PM, said:

I interpret PGI taking action as proof of a problem, it's their solutions to the problems they detect that are janky.

Again, I believe you that the Wolfhound is a primo quality mech. What I don't believe is that the Piranha wasn't a problem.

Considering that they point out that they looked at it again because of a bunch of complaints at mechcon I would lean toward it actually being fine. No mention of the mech being janky or the best mech in the game, just people upset that a 20t mech was decent.

[DAEDALOS513]

dario03, on 21 January 2019 - 04:25 AM, said:

Considering that they point out that they looked at it again because of a bunch of complaints at mechcon I would lean toward it actually being fine. No mention of the mech being janky or the best mech in the game, just people upset that a 20t mech was decent.

When a mech can take all your weapons without you being close to cored anywhere.. there is a problem with the mech.

[dario03]

DAEDALOS513, on 21 January 2019 - 05:30 AM, said:

When a mech can take all your weapons without you being close to cored anywhere.. there is a problem with the mech.

Still scores lower than bigger mechs. Mechs that can kill you from further away while soaking more damage.
Also only the mg Piranhas did lots of crits. The Pir-2 does not and is getting quadruple nerfed.

[Prototelis]

Pir agility nerfs are totally unnecessary. Not going to prevent it from abusing unaware opponents. It's only happening because of mechdads and BUT MUH ASSULT

Totally okay with losing bonus structure, it shouldn't excel at beating is pulse laser lights.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

dario03, on 21 January 2019 - 04:25 AM, said:

Considering that they point out that they looked at it again because of a bunch of complaints at mechcon I would lean toward it actually being fine. No mention of the mech being janky or the best mech in the game, just people upset that a 20t mech was decent.

It's more of the "Monitoring the performance of the 'Mech series since the last time we touched it, we are inclined to agree with this position." part that leads me to disagree with you. I think its a bit silly to suggest that a significant portion of people just hate the mech because its a 20 tonner that's decent.

If you, theoretically, broke from all standard rationale, gave the piranha +50 armor quirks all over its body, and then gave it a top speed of 81kph, complaints about its imbalance would largely fizzle away. The core problem is the Piranha's having best of both worlds in terms of threat projection and ability to position itself.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 21 January 2019 - 07:54 AM.

[General Solo]

DAEDALOS513, on 21 January 2019 - 05:30 AM, said:

When a mech can take all your weapons without you being close to cored anywhere.. there is a problem with the mech.

Well its a good thing that our mechs have 3 or 4 times the armour of table top.
Other wise game would be shorter than they already are.

AC5 is OP at standard armour values

[HammerMaster]

Prototelis, on 21 January 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

Pir agility nerfs are totally unnecessary. Not going to prevent it from abusing unaware opponents. It's only happening because of mechdads and BUT MUH ASSULT

Totally okay with losing bonus structure, it shouldn't excel at beating is pulse laser lights.

Why are we still blaming mech dads?
Your bias is becoming droll.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Prototelis, on 21 January 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

Pir agility nerfs are totally unnecessary. Not going to prevent it from abusing unaware opponents. It's only happening because of mechdads and BUT MUH ASSULT

Totally okay with losing bonus structure, it shouldn't excel at beating is pulse laser lights.

I don't understand how people can keep saying "Piranha isn't OP, assault pilots are just incompetent." We have previous meta light history to compare them to, the classic cheetah with old cSPL for instance. That mech was despite a moderate amount complaints levi'd was pretty fair and balanced, but the Piranha has clearly surpassed where that mech was at. If one is going to conclude "Piranha isn't OP, assault pilots are just incompetent," it seems to me that one would also be concluding that "the classic cheetah was actually underpowered, and we'll never see a balanced light mech that sticks because muh Mech Dads."