284 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 21 January 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

It's more of the "Monitoring the performance of the 'Mech series since the last time we touched it, we are inclined to agree with this position." part that leads me to disagree with you. I think its a bit silly to suggest that a significant portion of people just hate the mech because its a 20 tonner that's decent.

If you, theoretically, broke from all standard rationale, gave the piranha +50 armor quirks all over its body, and then gave it a top speed of 81kph, complaints about its imbalance would largely fizzle away. The core problem is the Piranha's having best of both worlds in terms of threat projection and ability to position itself.

Have you read the comments in *insert light here* are op threads over the years? Its very common for people to say a mech is op just because they think it is to good for its weight. Things like "to good for a light", "to strong for 20t", "lights shouldn't be able to fight bigger mechs" etc, etc. That has been around forever. I didn't just randomly make my sig be #LightLivesMatter, it is there because some feel like the game should simply be bigger is better and I disagree since most of the game is one mech per player.
At the end of the day the mech wasn't the best mech in the game, so there are other mechs more deserving of nerfs.

[General Solo]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 21 January 2019 - 08:05 AM, said:

I don't understand how people can keep saying "Piranha isn't OP, assault pilots are just incompetent." ...........muh Mech Dads."

I'm old, about mech Grand dad age and grumpy as hell.

But I don't have problems killing pirahana's and other lights except for the Commando in my assault mechs.

I use direct fire and adjust my lead to compensate for lag shield due to my Australian 3rd world internet connection.


When I play the pirhana I sure ain't OP, in fact its the opposite.

I find it much easier to kill a Pirhana in an assault mech than I do killing an assault mech in a Pirhana.

As I said I use direct fire as waiting for a lock takes too long.
I use Front loaded weapons - ballistics and ppc, or I use short duration weapons - pulse lasers.

I hit the Pirhana once and it either dies or it tries to run away after losing a leg, arm or side torso.

Fish taste guid

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 21 January 2019 - 08:43 AM.

[General Solo]

The worst weapons to kill piranha are Clan Lrms and long duration lasers aka Clan ER/heavy clan lasers.

Which is your typical Clan Lerm with backup weapons build.

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 21 January 2019 - 08:56 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Light mechs:
Funny that people accept that there are often 5-6 assaults per team and a couple of heavies and on the other hand just 1-2 lights, sometimes even 0. Is this "balanced"? After all people gravitate to the most powerful stuff in a pvp online game.

But of course the 35t mechs aren't buffed. And with buffs I mean a boost in the agility department. Oh no, someone could miss that giant barn doors the 35t mechs have become after volumetric re-sizing. To add insult to injury: quite a few medium mechs like the Assassin are more agile (while having better armour and structure) than the 35tonners.

As for the PIR nerfs, the people who gloat in this thread about it will still be easily killed by the PIRs. Why you ask? Simply because the reduced leg structure is only a problem if your enemy can aim (you know, that thing you call "lag shield" despite not realizing your laz0rs spread over the whole mech) and/or has situational awareness. So, sorry dudes, they are still deadly for you.



As Dario said, at the end of the day you will see only heavies and assaults because speed and agility can't compensate (which happens already) the DPS/alpha strikes flying around. Bigger in this game is already in most cases better. There goes the variety and different gameplay.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 21 January 2019 - 09:48 AM.

[Khalcruth]

HammerMaster, on 21 January 2019 - 08:03 AM, said:

Why are we still blaming mech dads?

It's hard to tell - what the heck is a "mech dad"?

[NocturnalBeast]

I need a "Mech Dad" decal, you know, like a dad in shorts with a BBQ apron, tongs in one hand and a can of beer in the other. Also, there should be a picture of a streak boat shooting a pirahna on the apron. I would totally put that decal on my streak boat and go make shooter kiddies cry when I "one shot" their MG-boat lights.

[Benjamin357]

The Panther 10P is a 35-ton mech with two ballistic hardpoints, and two CT missle hardpoints. The best loadout you can give it is 2xSRM4 and 2xLMG. Is it even possible to overheat it?


PNT-10P

• Heat -10% quirk added

Edited by Benjamin357, 21 January 2019 - 11:29 AM.

[Smokeviper]

Bush Hopper, on 21 January 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

As for the PIR nerfs, the people who gloat in this thread about it will still be easily killed by the PIRs.

*chuckles*

[Koniving]

The element of the dice is to get a representation of the ten seconds that passes, accounting for movement speed, shots fired, skill of the pilot, other conditions (such as obstacles in the way), and on top of all this, the condition of the target, what the target is doing, if the target can react to being shot at (otherwise you can "call the shot" for the LT, RT, head, etc.), and if the pilot can, the dice is weighted towards dodging, torso twisting and BLOCKING WITH ARMS AND LEGS.

This is why arms especially get hit more than they would in a game like MWO, because MWO does not have any blocking button or automatic block, where the mechs automatically try to evade incoming fire (which is why ACs fire numerous shots and not a single man-sized bullet like MWO; BT has that, its called a Rifle, and its obsolete for a reason, mechs dodge or deflect it significantly reducing the effectiveness). Its why missiles fire large volleys instead of one at a time. Its why even SRMs have basic guidance.

BT tries to simulate, and often does so better, than most mechwarrior games have ever succeeded in, what the combat would be like.

But yes, BT is broken in its over simplification. Despite ACs firing many shots, there's one hit check. Despite laser power output and burn times as described being too weak to do the damage in a single shot (but capable of cutting into and through the armor of an M1A2 Abrams in multiple shots fired within 7 seconds or less to the same point, with the described large laser able to do this in just a couple of shots according to a laser drill calculator)... we still have a single to hit check for lasers. The only lore-true single shot for massive damage weapons we have are PPCs and Gauss Rifles... and missiles if you count the full volley as a shot.

And yet everything is upfront... and we have double armor and structure but that's not enough. Mechs don't block either on their own or on command, though we can torso twist. The simplified hitbox system, done to keep things easy and fun, doesn't match up to what should have been done when expanding from the tabletop to a real time simulation. Mechs have things like weak undercarriages, exposed weapon linkages, numerous other things that would be, should be, and are not taken into account in what we got. Because what we got was a game that took the tabletop and ignored the lore and fluff of how things work.

It took the game and removed the simulation.
It took the body...and left out the soul.

That's all.
Don't quote to argue because I'm not here for it, agree if you do, disagree if you don't and move on.

Edited by Koniving, 21 January 2019 - 03:49 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Benjamin357, on 21 January 2019 - 11:28 AM, said:

The Panther 10P is a 35-ton mech with two ballistic hardpoints, and two CT missle hardpoints. The best loadout you can give it is 2xSRM4 and 2xLMG. Is it even possible to overheat it?


PNT-10P

• Heat -10% quirk added

That's exactly what I thought the second I saw this inconsequential buff.. this mech is still garbage and no one will use it.

[Bishop Six]

F
A
C
T
I
O
N

P
L
A
Y

?
!

[Akillius]

dario03, on 20 January 2019 - 10:09 AM, said:

Also machine guns do work against mechs. Actually in TT was infantry even in the original game? Didn't that get added shortly after?

Infantry was in Battledroids (see: Optional Rules), along with Jeep, tank
Infantry (MG 25 shots, or SRM2 12 shots, in 9 man squads, no facing rules)
Infantry can have up to 10 squads per hex irregardless of any vehicles/mechs in hex.

Was the cheapest unit to buy with CBills, and used a lot in pre-made campaigns like Skirmish at Mesa 7
Along with either Jeep (MG 10 shots, or SRM2 5 shots) and Tanks (Scorpion, Hunter, Vedette)

HammerMaster, on 20 January 2019 - 01:52 PM, said:

Recall when it was hilariously called "a BattleTech game".
Did you forget?

2008 "MechWarrior franchise game" announced by PGI and Smith & Tinker
2009 "MechWarrior 5" announced with a rather illogical photoshop trailer.
2011 IPG and PGI made a lot of apologies and announced "MechWarrior" *
*Also not giving up on the dream of making solo Mechwarrior franchise game, hence got the domain "mwomercs.com"
2012 IPG announced it as "MechWarrior Online"
2016 "MechWarrior 5 Mercenaries" announced by PGI as that solo Mechwarrior franchise game.
So yes, please provide a link to this forgotten detail, many thanks.

HammerMaster, on 20 January 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

What source was used in MechWarrior when you piloted a Battlemech?
Either source BattleTech or Solaris ruleset sir.

In 1984 Neither BattleTech Nor Solaris even existed.
In the beginning there was only......... Battledroids!
And as I recall there was no MechWarriors back then they were simply called droid warriors.

Edited by Akillius, 21 January 2019 - 01:51 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Akillius, on 21 January 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

So yes, please provide a link to this forgotten detail, many thanks.

It was in the top left where you see MWO/S7 now before the rebrand sir.

Akillius, on 21 January 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

In 1984 Neither BattleTech Nor Solaris even existed.
In the beginning there was only......... Battledroids!
And as I recall there was no MechWarriors back then they were simply called droid warriors.

Yes. Nor was there the MechWarrior RPG yet.

Edited by HammerMaster, 21 January 2019 - 03:49 PM.

[dr3dnought]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 20 January 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

Suit yourself. I have played lights once upon a time, I play 45 tonners, you can claim to have woes as a current light pilot that no-one else could understand if you like. But I think your probably exaggerating. There's crap mechs in the light bracket certainly, there's a higher skill floor too sure, I've played them before they're tricky, but they're not vastly underperforming with the pre-nerf piranha situated as their hero.

Am I wrong?

The difference between a 45 tonner and a 20 tonner is as huge as the difference between a 45 tonner and a 100 tonner. So yes, you are wrong.

I didn't 'claim to have woes as a current light pilot that no-one else could understand' at all. I said YOU don't understand, which is obvious. Now since you're not arguing in good faith I'm not interested in discussing with you further.

Edited by dr3dnought, 21 January 2019 - 04:08 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Uncle Totty, on 20 January 2019 - 06:34 AM, said:

If you ignore a Kit Fox, Osiris, and Urban Mech...

Yes the 90 tons of lights who had to carry that entire team...

Careful Method, on 20 January 2019 - 08:06 AM, said:

Oh yeah, make machine gun ammo significantly less rounds per ton.

200 per ton according to tabletop. I dunno, carrying 2 tons of ammo and having 4 million rounds seems excessive.

Signed,
Dr. Evil

MG ammo in tabletop did 2 damage per shot...so... 200 per ton = 400 damage. In MWO... every shot does 0.1 damage...so... 2000 shots equals 200 damage per ton.

[Y E O N N E]

HammerMaster, on 20 January 2019 - 02:26 PM, said:

What source was used in MechWarrior when you piloted a Battlemech?
Either source BattleTech or Solaris ruleset sir.

And yes it was "a BattleTech game" TM. That was removed shortly before the "S7" re-branding. I'm sure someone has a pic still.

They used neither source when they made MechWarrior, they made a shooty game and then fit BattleTech aesthetics onto it. Just like X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter was a space-fly shooty game with Star Wars aesthetics.

Next?

Quote

Weapons cooldowns normalized would fix a few issues with small weapons feeling op in knife range.

And make big weapons feel OP at long range and make plinky weapons absolutely useless. Also, flawed premise anyway, since small weapons don't feel at all OP, they instead properly reward the risk of getting close with decent payoff.

Next?

Quote

TROs. Ha! Gawdawful art. Classic!

Also gawdawful lore and mechanical fluff.

Quote

Oh yes. Most most important.
Convergence isn't an issue for "a fps" shooter.
It IS A PROBLEM for this BattleTech shooter.

This isn't BattleTech, it's MechWarrior.

[Dee Eight]

HammerMaster, on 20 January 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

The weight of 100 rounds of linked M2 ball in ammunition can is approximately 35 pounds. (.50 Cal Being most accepted in the mech machine gun class but 12.7/14.5/20/25/30 mm is certainly possible but encroaches ac2 territory.)

Metric Tons (or Tonnes)

A unit of weight equal to 1,000 kilograms, or approximately 2,204.6 pounds.

2204.6\approx 35 is 62.98857142857142857142857142857142857

X 100 rds is 6298.857142857142857142857142857142857

About 6300 .50 Cal rounds. So we're a bit short sir.

Can I have more ammo now?

So in summary. It's not MGs fault.

I blame mechs being too large in med/heavy/assault class.
Convergence.
No parity in weapons cool down.

The problem is that battletech measured stuff in shots, but never explains what the rate of fire for anything is as far as ballistic weapons went for what a shot represented. A shot of mg ammo could be a burst of 50 individual cartridges of caliber A or 25 rounds of caliber B. The only time calibers are ever mentioned is in the flavor text written for technical readouts. The clan Mars assault tank for example described its LB-10X autocannon as being a 150mm. The technical manual says that difference classes of autocannons might either be a burst of shells or a single large shell, and that it varied by the manufacturer/model.

In real world terms, we see the same thing when it comes to naval guns or even just tank/armored vehicle guns. A six round burst from a Bofors 40mm/L70 as fitted to the swedish CV90 IFV will put nearly the same weight of shells onto a target as a single 75mm shell from an american M4A1 sherman tank for example, and has about the exact same armor penetration capability... except...instead of one hole nearly 3 inches across...you might end up with six that are about an inch across...

Edited by Dee Eight, 21 January 2019 - 05:42 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Y E O N N E, on 21 January 2019 - 04:22 PM, said:

They used neither source when they made MechWarrior, they made a shooty game and then fit BattleTech aesthetics onto it. Just like X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter was a space-fly shooty game with Star Wars aesthetics.

Next?



And make big weapons feel OP at long range and make plinky weapons absolutely useless. Also, flawed premise anyway, since small weapons don't feel at all OP, they instead properly reward the risk of getting close with decent payoff.

Next?



Also gawdawful lore and mechanical fluff.



This isn't BattleTech, it's MechWarrior.

Negative Nancy.

Next indeed.

Dee Eight, on 21 January 2019 - 04:46 PM, said:

The problem is that battletech measured stuff in shots, but never explains what the rate of fire for anything is as far as ballistic weapons went for what a shot represented. A shot of mg ammo could be a burst of 50 individual cartridges of caliber A or 25 rounds of caliber B. The only time calibers are ever mentioned is in the flavor text written for technical readouts. The clan Mars assault tank for example described its LB-10X autocannon as being a 150mm. The technical manual says that difference classes of autocannons might either be a burst of shells or a single large shell, and that it varied by the manufacturer/model.

In real world terms, we see the same thing when it comes to naval guns or even just tank/armored vehicle guns. A six round burst from a Bofors 40mm/L70 as fitted to the swedish CV90 IFV will put nearly the same weight of shells onto a target as a single 75mm shell from an american M4A1 sherman tank for example, and has about the exact same armor penetration capability... except...instead of one hole...you might end up with six...

Yup.

Edited by HammerMaster, 21 January 2019 - 05:26 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

The dice rolls in BATTLETECH simulate gunnery and piloting skills as well as environmental effects such as physics. There is no need to randomize shots in MWO, or mess with convergence, since there is already a wide range of player ability.

[Dee Eight]

Ed Steele, on 21 January 2019 - 05:38 PM, said:

The dice rolls in BATTLETECH simulate gunnery and piloting skills as well as environmental effects such as physics. There is no need to randomize shots in MWO, or mess with convergence, since there is already a wide range of player ability.

There's also PGI"s crap code and its inability to deal with large missile volleys, particle cannons, or lag properly. Four SRM6 launchers fired as a group should not register less damage on the target than firing them in a chain...