71 replies to this topic

[Blacksheep One]

So, many people complain about light mechs. Pirates Banes, Piranhas, the works. For the heck of it, I decided to grab one - sort of a "Know your enemy" night.

Disclaimer: I'm not a great player. I have fun, but I'm not regularly cracking near-1000 match scores, etc. (In part due to what I like playing - I have fun running around on a Raven NARCing people and throwing UAVs up, but it gets me killed. *shrug*) You won't see me on Youtube unless I end up in someone's kill compilation. But honestly, I have fun and that's all I'm looking for.

Picked up a Pirate's Bane. Changed the camo. Hopped into QP with my stock 4 small lasers and two MGs.

Did I get a lot of kills? No. (First night out with one. Getting the hang of it. *shrug* Still got pretty close, and a number of KMDDs.)
Do a lot of damage? Yes. Had some fairly decent damage scores, especially for a played-less-than-an-hour 'mech. (5-600 range.)
Am I an uber Light driver now? Not in the least.

What absolutely blew my mind is just how far in the red people would let their torsos get - on heavies and assaults - before they even bothered paying attention to the light that wasn't (most of the time) even running around them. I was following right behind and shooting. Keeping button 1 and button 2 down. That's it.

It wasn't a "I can't turn/twist fast enough," or "I can't shoot down / see that low" in most cases. Those, hey, you're trying, cool. It's the complete lack of reaction to the hits and the sound of the machine guns. (Or, since it's a PB, even the lack of reaction to the "Low signal." Most of these people weren't even looking around - no twist at all.) I mean, *I* was yelling at them to turn around and shoot at me already!

OK, it would probably be slightly different with a light with no ECM - but again, "Low Signal" and shots hitting your back should say "I should turn around or call one of my own lights." It does fairly bluntly indicate what and where I am.

Does this mean no light anywhere will ever need to be looked at, it's all the players, not the mech? Nah. I'm just - I know I've seen teammates not really react to a light in their back. (I'll usually either start turning or try to find somewhere to back against.) But being in the cockpit of the light and seeing it from that angle was just stunning.

... Also, I highly recommend people grab 'mechs they have trouble with to pilot themselves.

[Battlemaster56]

Pretty much got it whenever I jump on my lights at times, I see spuds just not twisting or reacting to any of my back shots, and most of the time they just run forward and keep going while I get a free kill. It quite sad when someone complains in a match bout lights killin them.

But for me most of the time, most players react to the slightest of ticks of back damage they receive. Still playing lights for the first is really a eye opener and get a new perspective of gameplay for me.

[El Bandito]

Blacksheep One, on 27 January 2019 - 02:25 AM, said:

What absolutely blew my mind is just how far in the red people would let their torsos get - on heavies and assaults - before they even bothered paying attention to the light that wasn't (most of the time) even running around them. I was following right behind and shooting. Keeping button 1 and button 2 down. That's it.

Would you rather shoot at the enemy Assault mech in front of you, or turn your back to the enemy Assault just to try to chase away the light mech that is peppering your back? I know which one will kill me faster.

[warner2]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2019 - 03:30 AM, said:

Would you rather shoot at the enemy Assault mech in front of you, or turn your back to the enemy Assault just to try to chase away the light mech that is peppering your back? I know which one will kill me faster.

The answer is of course more complicated that. If possible, put terrain between you and the light so you can ignore it, or second best put terrain between you and the assault and then put fire on the light so that it goes elsewhere. It's probably quite rare that there is no terrain to leverage. Lights played well will win games, they need to be dealt with, sensibly, without squirrelling.

[Darian DelFord]

The OP is correct and its a point most veteran light pilots have made for years. The lack of situational awareness is the only OP aspect of a light taking out an assault. Granted there is an outlier light mech out there. The Piranha, which is not OP, but strong, which just draws attention to it.

I have so many videos of me just firing away at an assaults back and they have no idea its going on for whatever reason, and they coming to the forums to complain about it.

Light mechs are the weakest class in the game as a whole, and overall most of them need a buff, especially 35 tonners, granted I think the Wolf Hound is in a good place right now. What keeps bringing this to the forefront, are the veteran light pilots who just know how to play and can rack up high numbers, by monopolizing on the mistakes assaults make.

[LordNothing]

anyone who thinks lights are op needs to play them enough to get littlest helper.

[Blacksheep One]

El Bandito, on 27 January 2019 - 03:30 AM, said:

Would you rather shoot at the enemy Assault mech in front of you, or turn your back to the enemy Assault just to try to chase away the light mech that is peppering your back? I know which one will kill me faster.

Here's the thing. The ones I was attacking? Were still on their way to the field. You know the Highlands map? I had one (the Fafnir) making his way to where the fighting was, going around one of the (small) hills, still fresh, nobody shooting at him yet. He was following his buddies (who, to be fair, were shooting at ME until I scampered around and up the hill and waited for them to pass.) Another, on HPG? Still had nobody shooting at him.

If someone *were* taking shots from the front, it's another thing I'd totally understand (and, yes, take *full* advantage of. Gimme those components.) It wouldn't have been surprising enough to post about in that case - it would be about the same level as "Someone shot missiles at me - AND THEY HIT!"

Edited by Blacksheep One, 27 January 2019 - 07:03 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

LordNothing, on 27 January 2019 - 06:53 AM, said:

anyone who thinks lights are op needs to play them enough to get littlest helper.

They can be OP when they can pin an assault in a corner. Of course said assault usually has no arm mounted weapons and does not have enough pitch to bring torso mounted weapons to bear, which Darian touches up on. As for being buffed? iie, unless we are speaking about resizing the 35-tons which are larger than they should be, imho. I am still waiting to see when PGI will drop the hammer on the wolfhound. It would not and is not the first time "quirks" have been "adjusted".

As for your scenario, was the assault pilot aware it was a light close to him or being shot from far away? Or he had hit the forward key and was doing something else. Or he was aware of you but the best thing he could do is to get to his buddies, having been caught more than once in a bad spot chasing a light...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 January 2019 - 07:07 AM.

[Blacksheep One]

Tarl Cabot, on 27 January 2019 - 07:04 AM, said:

As for your scenario, was the assault pilot aware it was a light close to him or being shot from far away? Or he had hit the forward key and was doing something else. Or he was aware of you but the best thing he could do is to get to his buddies, having been caught more than once in a bad spot chasing a light...

I was right behind him. If the game had grappling, I could have opened the 'mech cockpit and grabbed his ankle. His buddies were in front of him (as mentioned, I let them pass after a brief exchange I escaped from,) Plenty of room to maneuver - it wasn't a tight spot like some of the alleys in Solaris City can be. He was really in the ideal spot to engage me (or, in theory, one of the *dumbest* places for me in a light mech to be) - Hill to put at his back if he wanted to, buddies up ahead (between us and the rest of my team, actually,) room to move. And yet I just walked behind him for a while shooting MGs and lasers until he had a nice cherry red torso.

[Koniving]

Blacksheep One, on 27 January 2019 - 02:25 AM, said:

So, many people complain about light mechs. Pirates Banes, Piranhas, the works. For the heck of it, I decided to grab one - sort of a "Know your enemy" night.

Disclaimer: I'm not a great player. I have fun, but I'm not regularly cracking near-1000 match scores, etc. (In part due to what I like playing - I have fun running around on a Raven NARCing people and throwing UAVs up, but it gets me killed. *shrug*) You won't see me on Youtube unless I end up in someone's kill compilation. But honestly, I have fun and that's all I'm looking for.

Picked up a Pirate's Bane. Changed the camo. Hopped into QP with my stock 4 small lasers and two MGs.

Did I get a lot of kills? No. (First night out with one. Getting the hang of it. *shrug* Still got pretty close, and a number of KMDDs.)
Do a lot of damage? Yes. Had some fairly decent damage scores, especially for a played-less-than-an-hour 'mech. (5-600 range.)
Am I an uber Light driver now? Not in the least.

What absolutely blew my mind is just how far in the red people would let their torsos get - on heavies and assaults - before they even bothered paying attention to the light that wasn't (most of the time) even running around them. I was following right behind and shooting. Keeping button 1 and button 2 down. That's it.

It wasn't a "I can't turn/twist fast enough," or "I can't shoot down / see that low" in most cases. Those, hey, you're trying, cool. It's the complete lack of reaction to the hits and the sound of the machine guns. (Or, since it's a PB, even the lack of reaction to the "Low signal." Most of these people weren't even looking around - no twist at all.) I mean, *I* was yelling at them to turn around and shoot at me already!

OK, it would probably be slightly different with a light with no ECM - but again, "Low Signal" and shots hitting your back should say "I should turn around or call one of my own lights." It does fairly bluntly indicate what and where I am.

Does this mean no light anywhere will ever need to be looked at, it's all the players, not the mech? Nah. I'm just - I know I've seen teammates not really react to a light in their back. (I'll usually either start turning or try to find somewhere to back against.) But being in the cockpit of the light and seeing it from that angle was just stunning.

... Also, I highly recommend people grab 'mechs they have trouble with to pilot themselves.

It is sad, isn't it?

When I do it, there's less of a lack of reaction and more of a "there's something more dangerous that I need to deal with first." In this case I was fighting an assault with a meta laser vomit build, if I turned my back I'd die instantly.
But after I fried the ******, I got the fish too.
Died later to a single long range shot while on my way to E5 to fight on. But you can see from the damage and kills, that assault was a hell of a damage sponge. Then again I was face to face with an Annihilator laser boat that had strong torso twisting instincts.


So stuff happens.

Normally though, ECM lights seem really surprised when I'm reacting before they even fire the first shot. Some are so complacent in the fact that the common player is oblivious that they don't even use the trick of turning ECM off when really close to the enemy. If they did that, they'd truly go undetected.

Some of the more blissfully unaware might do well with Seismic... but if they can't even see the low signal...Seismic won't improve them either.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Yup. Did the same to yet another assault two nights ago. LRMboat, back of the team, just walked up behind him and started shooting. Guy never even twitched. He had backup lasers... but never even tried to use them. He wasn't being attacked from any other direction, wasn't moving... just Coffee+M1 LRMspamming from a comfy corner while the game went on around him.

It's well past a lack of situational awareness at that point- it's willful refusal to even try. I can understand a player with slower reflexes eating the first alpha before reacting... but after that? C'mon, nobody is that slow on the draw. Not if they're actively trying to stay alive, anyway.

[Jonathan8883]

This starts to go away at the higher tiers. I still get lucky occasionally, but usually I only get one or two alphas off before it's time to skedaddle.

[Prototelis]

Jonathan8883, on 27 January 2019 - 10:14 AM, said:

This starts to go away at the higher tiers. I still get lucky occasionally, but usually I only get one or two alphas off before it's time to skedaddle.

No it doesn't.

I played like 30 games in the FLE-17 NA Prime yesterday and only had one match below 300 match score.

The game has bled off the more skilled players, all that is left are average and below.

[Darian DelFord]

Prototelis, on 27 January 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:

No it doesn't.

I played like 30 games in the FLE-17 NA Prime yesterday and only had one match below 300 match score.

The game has bled off the more skilled players, all that is left are average and below.

Thats not an entirely true statement ;pp

[Tarl Cabot]

Prototelis, on 27 January 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:

No it doesn't.

I played like 30 games in the FLE-17 NA Prime yesterday and only had one match below 300 match score.

The game has bled off the more skilled players, all that is left are average and below.

And the PSR pushes everyone to Tier 1, provided they can do the bare minimum. Tier 1/2 is basically watered down in "skill", so even if there hadnt been any bleed off, we would still be in the same boat across the board...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 January 2019 - 11:19 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Prototelis, on 27 January 2019 - 10:34 AM, said:

The game has bled off the more skilled players, all that is left are average and below.

Even the mighty Jarl's list does not really agree with you pn that

Fun fact 1: About 66% of players of any game at any given time can be expected to be "average" due to aproximate normality.

Fun fact 2: Losing part of the "more skilled players" usually has no other effect than causing a shift of the absolute value for the average and thereby setting also new absolute values for the "good" and the "bad" percentiles within the "new" distribution.

[Prototelis]

Average match score per player has mostly gone down since it peaked in season 17. (We're in a strong peak right now, but I believe it will fall again. We'll see)

A large part of that are the changes to side torso damage reward, but in general the skill level seen in game has gone down. The only real difference I see between my low tier alt and my tier 1 main are build choices.

Very few players achieve over 300 AMS (I can't do it either, fwiw), and that number has been steadily declining.

Edited by Prototelis, 27 January 2019 - 11:51 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Prototelis, on 27 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

Average match score per player has mostly gone down since it peaked in season 17. (We're in a strong peak right now, but I believe it will fall again. We'll see)

Which still doesn't change anything about how roughly 66% of a population at any given time are "average" in a normal distribution. And this game certainly exhibits a normal skill distribution even now. Hence ...

Prototelis, on 27 January 2019 - 11:50 AM, said:

A large part of that are the changes to side torso damage reward, but in general the skill level seen in game has gone down. The only real difference I see between my low tier alt and my tier 1 main are build choices.

... your comment about lost "skilled" players and the remainder of "average and below" is somewhat amusing to me.

The average skill level in this game is always based on its current population not its historical one. Have absolute skill levels gone down? It would appear so but the really interesting thing would be for you to show by how much and then providing information on the significance of the decrease: Within margin of error? By what percentage of the original average skill levels and the associated standard deviation that you're basing your oberservation on?

[Mole]

Yeah no, I know. I've been playing lights since Day 1 and a lot of the people who complain about them being OP don't even bother to turn around until you've practically finished killing them.

[Prototelis]

You're free to look at Jarl global stats and interpret how you like. It would be interesting to put a timeline on the graph of nerfs/buffs, events, mech releases, etc but I'm not going to do that.