84 replies to this topic

[Zaccheus]

I’ve already preordered and likely it will be fixed with mods (but I’m not going to bank on that since HBS’ Battletech has a modding community but the game is t anywhere near as mod friendly as they initially said it would be), but if you don’t know the mech lab will be very restrictive. Instead of a mech having “energy” or “ballistic” hard points, the hard points are weapon specific, ie medium laser hardloint, ac 10 hard point etc. and only a medium laser can be equipped in the medium laser hard point. As it stands now, you won’t even be able to swan out an lbx AC for a standard AC. I feel like MW and BT games have a very long rich history of allowing customization, and for many of the fans of the genre, being able to modify your load outs to suit our play style or the particular mission, in fact there are many who enjoy tinkering in the mechlab more than the actual game. They stated they made this decision to make the variants more unique and special, but it seems like they are unnecessarily alienating a large portion of their fan base, and since it is such a niche game it seems like this may be a critical error. What do you guys think?

[MechaBattler]

The MW games have a long history of allow a lot of customization freedom. But technically in battletech lore and TT it is an expensive, time consuming, and often treacherous process. From what I heard last, MW5 will not allow you to swap engines, change structure or armor. But it was implied that weapons and certain other equipment are fine.

As for BT. Have you played Roguetech? They've added the ability to swap engines. The ability to change structure and armor types. As well as a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't in the base game. Plus all the mechs they're adding from MWO.

Personally I think it makes it interesting to have the variants actually mean something.

[HammerMaster]

Let's actually get it in our hands before declaring mistakes.
Also. Ya. You pay. You wait. You get. You fail in doing it you break it.
You want broken mechs?
That's how you get broken mechs.

Edited by HammerMaster, 31 January 2019 - 01:12 PM.

[Zaccheus]

I’ve played RogueTech, it’s nice. It’s got some issues, but it’s got a lot of tho ya I like. No in the AMA the devs stated weapons are not changeable. Like you can trade a medium laser from one manufacturer out with one from a different manufacturer, but you can’t modify the load out at all except just taking weapons off

HammerMaster, on 31 January 2019 - 01:11 PM, said:

Let's actually get it in our hands before declaring mistakes.
Also. Ya. You pay. You wait. You get. You fail in doing it you break it.
You want broken mechs?
That's how you get broken mechs.

Broken mechs are fine. Having risks with modification is t a bad idea but it was far from impossible in TT. You could do all sorts of customizations including tho gs like only having weapons in the legs, so ya there were costs and risks but it absolutely was a big pet of TT

Oh also waiting until you get your hands on it and it’s too late. Preventing mistakes is far more effective than correcting them. Variants already are meaningful without hardlocking the weapon load outs

[HammerMaster]

Zaccheus, on 31 January 2019 - 01:17 PM, said:

I’ve played RogueTech, it’s nice. It’s got some issues, but it’s got a lot of tho ya I like. No in the AMA the devs stated weapons are not changeable. Like you can trade a medium laser from one manufacturer out with one from a different manufacturer, but you can’t modify the load out at all except just taking weapons off


Broken mechs are fine. Having risks with modification is t a bad idea but it was far from impossible in TT. You could do all sorts of customizations including tho gs like only having weapons in the legs, so ya there were costs and risks but it absolutely was a big pet of TT

Oh also waiting until you get your hands on it and it’s too late. Preventing mistakes is far more effective than correcting them. Variants already are meaningful without hardlocking the weapon load outs

Lore style variant upgrade kits.
Repair times.
These are GOOD things.
Immersion.
Everyone is just asking for their game genie.
Drek. Pure and simple.

[Zaccheus]

HammerMaster, on 31 January 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

Lore style variant upgrade kits.
Repair times.
These are GOOD things.
Immersion.
Everyone is just asking for their game genie.
Drek. Pure and simple.

What’s not immersive about modifying your mech? It’s been a part of battletech/MechWarrior since it’s inceptuon, and given their expense and rarity, it only seems more immersive that those that own them, especially merc groups, would modify them to better fit their needs. Like tuner cars, you’re always taking risks modifying your car, it takes time money etc, but go find someone who does any kind of racing that just uses their stock lancer

[HammerMaster]

Zaccheus, on 31 January 2019 - 01:26 PM, said:

What’s not immersive about modifying your mech? It’s been a part of battletech/MechWarrior since it’s inceptuon, and given their expense and rarity, it only seems more immersive that those that own them, especially merc groups, would modify them to better fit their needs. Like tuner cars, you’re always taking risks modifying your car, it takes time money etc, but go find someone who does any kind of racing that just uses their stock lancer

Since you wanna do "tuner" analogy.
Millennium Falcon. Most famous tune job.(sci-fi)
When it's not being pushed to it's limits and out performing everything in sight.
What's Han Solo doing ?
?
?
I'll tell you.
Wrenching on the blasted thing.
Translates to cost/time/skill rolls.
If you want in real life?
How "tuned" is your POV?
Your neighbors?
99.9% of every car in your town?

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying though.
I'd like to modify.
IF it has congruent costs in time/skills.
NOT a Lego parts free for all.
Hell. My Subaru has those rain guard thingys. A bug shield. A roof rack. And a trailer hitch
It cost $. It took time to install. Some I did myself. The hitch I paid a guy since if I did an issue would have arose and I don't have a lift.
Capiche?

Edited by HammerMaster, 31 January 2019 - 01:47 PM.

[Mole]

I think it would have been neat to allow 'mech customization at great cost and at the risk of failure that could result in broken equipment. I believe that's how modifying a 'mech worked in tabletop.

[Zaccheus]

HammerMaster, on 31 January 2019 - 01:38 PM, said:

Since you wanna do "tuner" analogy.
Millennium Falcon. Most famous tune job.(sci-fi)
When it's not being pushed to it's limits and out performing everything in sight.
What's Han Solo doing ?
?
?
I'll tell you.
Wrenching on the blasted thing.
Translates to cost/time/skill rolls.
If you want in real life?
How "tuned" is your POV?
Your neighbors?
99.9% of every car in your town?

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying though.
I'd like to modify.
IF it has congruent costs in time/skills.
NOT a Lego parts free for all.
Hell. My Subaru has those rain guard thingys. A bug shield. A roof rack. And a trailer hitch
It cost $. It took time to install. Some I did myself. The hitch I paid a guy since if I did an issue would have arose and I don't have a lift.
Capiche?

I never said I wanted real life. You said it wasn’t immersive. I also never said I did t want there to be a cost to modifying, I’m all for it in fact. I just think it’s absurd to say having mech variants with locked load outs is abad idea. It’s not consistent with battletech nor MechWarrior and all variants are are modifications to the original, just by the factory. Most of these mechs are supposed to be decades if not centuries old, passed down through families, modding them wouldn’t only be realistic in most cases it’d be necessary do to damage and wear and tear eventually parts have to get replaced and it eventually going to be the case you can’t find a par so you substitute. Making their load outs static just seems like a terrible mistake, and well lazy actually

[HammerMaster]

Zaccheus, on 31 January 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

I never said I wanted real life. You said it wasn’t immersive. I also never said I did t want there to be a cost to modifying, I’m all for it in fact. I just think it’s absurd to say having mech variants with locked load outs is abad idea. It’s not consistent with battletech nor MechWarrior and all variants are are modifications to the original, just by the factory. Most of these mechs are supposed to be decades if not centuries old, passed down through families, modding them wouldn’t only be realistic in most cases it’d be necessary do to damage and wear and tear eventually parts have to get replaced and it eventually going to be the case you can’t find a par so you substitute. Making their load outs static just seems like a terrible mistake, and well lazy actually

So much to disagree with here.
How about.
Let's reiterate.
I'll pass judgement when it's in my hands.

[MechaBattler]

Zaccheus, on 31 January 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

Making their load outs static just seems like a terrible mistake, and well lazy actually

[Zaccheus]

MechaBattler, on 31 January 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

lol well ya, obviously it's my opinion. It's a feature that is pretty expected in a mechwarrior game, so I'm not sure they are managing expectations very well, and not including a major feature like that tends to piss off a lot of fans, and given how niche of a game MW is, and they keep saying they need this game to really do well, I'm not sure it's the best decision, especially since having relistened to the AMA the primary reason why seems to be so that the art of the mechs is static, they don't have to worry about switching out a large laser of a medium laster and the mech looking weird with it. Seems pretty lazy, or maybe rushed, or maybe both

[Koniving]

On a forklift about to load it up for a 5S Kaizen event at work. But first and foremost on the comment about BT modding being harder than they promised...the director of HBS's BT said that BT can be modded but very clearly in multiple question and answer streams found on YouTube stated... "Yes you can mod the game." "There will be no support given by us." And to clarify "You will have no tools supplied" (they actually kept some hidden in the game but we have to figure them out there is no documentation shared with us officially).

They never said they would make it easy for us. Just that we could. They expressly said several times they would never make any user friendly tools. Make our own. So just putting that out there.

PGI said there would be full mod support.... But whether it includes documentation and user friendly special tools remains to be seen.

I have more to comment here but will need to wait for lunch. 12 hour shifts and overtime...

Edited by Koniving, 31 January 2019 - 08:22 PM.

[Koniving]

Alright. So this is interesting. PGI has stated we would get granular customization of many things over "everything" with the caveat that we couldn't do anything that can't be done in the field of a campaign in tabletop. Engine changing is one of those incredibly difficult tasks and gearing a mech for a different engine type such as XL is so prone to failure...that we probably won't be able to.
Probably can't change engine sizes too. They want the variants to matter. They aren't supposed to feel like Clan Omnimechs.

This said I wouldnt be surprised if the sized SharePoint system has leeway in terms of weapon variants. Or compatibility limits... Like only ACs designed for a certain kind of arm could be equipped on a Centurion akin to how Centurion and Dragon arm autocannons are compatible in fluff. Centurions frequently had to find replacements for the AC/10 they have from the factory due to jamming and the best replacements were usually the AC/5 or UAC/5 from a Dragon.

I don't really care how they do the hardpoints. If you dig enough BT has a softpoint system that didn't pick up much track. Eye MRM mentions on Sarna.net and their compatibility with quick swapping for SRM and LRM launchers of specific sizes. These are age old references to the BT softpoint system (I call it soft point because one its an optional official rule and 2 the benefit was a change that could be done in hours to a day instead of days to weeks.)

[Koniving]

Zaccheus, on 31 January 2019 - 01:59 PM, said:

all variants are are modifications to the original, just by the factory.

This is mostly true, but not completely.
Perhaps modifications to a base design, though when the number changes, a new 'original' or base design is born.
Some are field modifications or refit kits, such as every Hunchback 4X (where X is the letter of the variant) is actually just a 4G changed because they couldn't procure another Tomodzuru AC/20 due to their scarcity and/or the lack of 180mm ammo.
(Until after 3030, then you have two completely different Hunchback 4G / 4X lines but that's a whole other can of worms).

Though the inherent issue is that the key element is those are being done by a factory, which produces new variants... once every 3 to even a couple hundred years?

But those are the variants... Most mercenaries either keep it to the factory default for the easy maintenance or they tinker with it. Obviously the tinkering is what you want, and I'm not sure whether you seen Mw5: Mercs' customization first hand by trying it at the MechCon (which may have intentionally locked it for the purposes of the playable build, see video as to why this is sometimes done) or perhaps are speculating on this.

Either way, games as of late seem to be absolutely intent on forcing "RPG-like" progression systems, which could include but isn't limited to.... what modifications can be done to your mech being limited by the Lead Technician you have hired.

So allow me to propose this thought experiment. If you have indeed tried MW5: Mercs already and went to tinker with your mech, what if your Lead Tech was Joe Smoe, generic incompetent guy number 73?

Joe Smoe isn't gonna compete with Scotty from Star Trek, but it is possible that Joe Smoe can't really rework the internal design of your Shadow Hawk to pump 15 large lasers into one arm until he's managed to do at least a couple of medium laser swap outs and a few engine repairs.. maybe he'll learn enough to be able to squeeze just one large laser, provided you figured out how to squeeze the weight in by throwing out your toilet, the thermal sensors and the secret stash of booze you've been hording from the team that you probably knicked off the last guy you fired because of that time he permanently screwed up the right lower arm actuator.

PGI used the word "Granular" customization over "every facet" of your mech, which means rough, dirty, unpolished. Exactly how they are thinking of the word would really change what to expect. We know they have weapon variants. But just swapping a medium laser for another medium laser would be kind of hard, if say, you didn't have one, but you've got a pair of small lasers. Finances, supplies, etc... are all supposed to matter here. And part of making that work is being able to improvise when necessary. So indeed it doesn't make sense for that to be the only option.

I have the feeling that whatever you saw at that demo doesn't necessarily represent the final product pending almost 10 months of polish between then and release. And if you (and I apologize for not reading over every morsel here) are just anticipating it to be this limited, perhaps it will be perhaps it won't. But we should consider that your crew, unlike the crew of HBS Battletech, will drastically affect what you can and can't do. PGI saw fit to have it so that you can run around and talk to them, and I've seen a video where you leave the ship on foot in a port to go buy stuff and recruit in a very Mechwarrior 1-esque reference. These are unnecessary touches that imply there to be some significance in your crew actually have a role beyond "click me to fix your mech."

Either way, I already have it set in my mind that I'm going to give it an overhaul because I already know that whatever care they put into the game... the variants are already flawed, as the SHK's 80mm Armstrong J11 AC/5 doing 1 shot kills on tanks with shells so much bigger than they should be...means that they did the same as HBS Battletech, didn't think much of or potentially failed to consume any existing details of weapon variants.

Edited by Koniving, 01 February 2019 - 03:39 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Granular customization could be:
Paint.
Computer systems.
Pulling the jumpseat for a fridge.
Swapping the stinky flight couch for a more comfortable one.
Hell, putting in a working lrm5 launcher.
It just doesn't mean scrap all my loadout. Move armor slider up. Load 3llas! That's for amateurs! And not immersive.

Edited by HammerMaster, 01 February 2019 - 04:58 AM.

[Zaccheus]

Koniving, on 01 February 2019 - 03:32 AM, said:

This is mostly true, but not completely.
Perhaps modifications to a base design, though when the number changes, a new 'original' or base design is born.
Some are field modifications or refit kits, such as every Hunchback 4X (where X is the letter of the variant) is actually just a 4G changed because they couldn't procure another Tomodzuru AC/20 due to their scarcity and/or the lack of 180mm ammo.
(Until after 3030, then you have two completely different Hunchback 4G / 4X lines but that's a whole other can of worms).

Though the inherent issue is that the key element is those are being done by a factory, which produces new variants... once every 3 to even a couple hundred years?

But those are the variants... Most mercenaries either keep it to the factory default for the easy maintenance or they tinker with it. Obviously the tinkering is what you want, and I'm not sure whether you seen Mw5: Mercs' customization first hand by trying it at the MechCon (which may have intentionally locked it for the purposes of the playable build, see video as to why this is sometimes done) or perhaps are speculating on this.

Either way, games as of late seem to be absolutely intent on forcing "RPG-like" progression systems, which could include but isn't limited to.... what modifications can be done to your mech being limited by the Lead Technician you have hired.

So allow me to propose this thought experiment. If you have indeed tried MW5: Mercs already and went to tinker with your mech, what if your Lead Tech was Joe Smoe, generic incompetent guy number 73?

Joe Smoe isn't gonna compete with Scotty from Star Trek, but it is possible that Joe Smoe can't really rework the internal design of your Shadow Hawk to pump 15 large lasers into one arm until he's managed to do at least a couple of medium laser swap outs and a few engine repairs.. maybe he'll learn enough to be able to squeeze just one large laser, provided you figured out how to squeeze the weight in by throwing out your toilet, the thermal sensors and the secret stash of booze you've been hording from the team that you probably knicked off the last guy you fired because of that time he permanently screwed up the right lower arm actuator.

PGI used the word "Granular" customization over "every facet" of your mech, which means rough, dirty, unpolished. Exactly how they are thinking of the word would really change what to expect. We know they have weapon variants. But just swapping a medium laser for another medium laser would be kind of hard, if say, you didn't have one, but you've got a pair of small lasers. Finances, supplies, etc... are all supposed to matter here. And part of making that work is being able to improvise when necessary. So indeed it doesn't make sense for that to be the only option.

I have the feeling that whatever you saw at that demo doesn't necessarily represent the final product pending almost 10 months of polish between then and release. And if you (and I apologize for not reading over every morsel here) are just anticipating it to be this limited, perhaps it will be perhaps it won't. But we should consider that your crew, unlike the crew of HBS Battletech, will drastically affect what you can and can't do. PGI saw fit to have it so that you can run around and talk to them, and I've seen a video where you leave the ship on foot in a port to go buy stuff and recruit in a very Mechwarrior 1-esque reference. These are unnecessary touches that imply there to be some significance in your crew actually have a role beyond "click me to fix your mech."

Either way, I already have it set in my mind that I'm going to give it an overhaul because I already know that whatever care they put into the game... the variants are already flawed, as the SHK's 80mm Armstrong J11 AC/5 doing 1 shot kills on tanks with shells so much bigger than they should be...means that they did the same as HBS Battletech, didn't think much of or potentially failed to consume any existing details of weapon variants.

I am not speculating, and I am not speaking about the demo. They had 2 AMA's on the January 30th, those who have preordered the game, like me, are allowed to participate, which I did, they have since been posted on the NGNG youtube site if you want to listen. In those AMA's they explicitly stated, at least once per AMA, that you cannot modify the weapon loadouts on a mech outside of "level". The example they gave was that you could not switch out a L laser for an M laser nor vice versa, nor could you switch out an AC10 for an AC10LBX, weapons could not be changed, the only thing you could do was switch out weapons of the same type by different manufacturers. Ie if you have a "low level" (their words) Mlaser you could up grade it with a "higher level" Mlaser from a different manufacturer that you bought in a different system. Again, a rather large part of Mechwarrior games is modifying the loadouts on your mechs, every previous game, including battletech TT, allowed this. There is an expectation, I am worried their not meeting this expectation will hurt sales, especially considering it is a niche market, most of the people buying it are going to be mechwarrior fans, and I have seen several people say if a robust mechlab isn't included they werent interested. Also, the reasons they gave for taking out customization was A) to make mech variants more meaningful and so that the mech would look cool, ie if switching out an AC 10 with an AC 2 could make it look funny

[HammerMaster]

Zaccheus, on 01 February 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

I am not speculating, and I am not speaking about the demo. They had 2 AMA's on the January 30th, those who have preordered the game, like me, are allowed to participate, which I did, they have since been posted on the NGNG youtube site if you want to listen. In those AMA's they explicitly stated, at least once per AMA, that you cannot modify the weapon loadouts on a mech outside of "level". The example they gave was that you could not switch out a L laser for an M laser nor vice versa, nor could you switch out an AC10 for an AC10LBX, weapons could not be changed, the only thing you could do was switch out weapons of the same type by different manufacturers. Ie if you have a "low level" (their words) Mlaser you could up grade it with a "higher level" Mlaser from a different manufacturer that you bought in a different system. Again, a rather large part of Mechwarrior games is modifying the loadouts on your mechs, every previous game, including battletech TT, allowed this. There is an expectation, I am worried their not meeting this expectation will hurt sales, especially considering it is a niche market, most of the people buying it are going to be mechwarrior fans, and I have seen several people say if a robust mechlab isn't included they werent interested. Also, the reasons they gave for taking out customization was A) to make mech variants more meaningful and so that the mech would look cool, ie if switching out an AC 10 with an AC 2 could make it look funny

If what you say is true.
Sounds like they are cooking up their own rules.
Which honestly is horse hockey.
Since their own baked stuff in MWO is really good and well thought out. And works so well. (What the actual eff)
I would find that.....distressing.
I hope when it gets in my hands it's not true.
Maybe they are saying as you said "in the field" a vanilla m laser swapped with an (insert brand name here) does make sense.

[Koniving]

Zaccheus, on 01 February 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

I am not speculating, and I am not speaking about the demo. They had 2 AMA's on the January 30th, those who have preordered the game, like me, are allowed to participate, which I did, they have since been posted on the NGNG youtube site if you want to listen. In those AMA's they explicitly stated, at least once per AMA, that you cannot modify the weapon loadouts on a mech outside of "level". The example they gave was that you could not switch out a L laser for an M laser nor vice versa, nor could you switch out an AC10 for an AC10LBX, weapons could not be changed, the only thing you could do was switch out weapons of the same type by different manufacturers. Ie if you have a "low level" (their words) Mlaser you could up grade it with a "higher level" Mlaser from a different manufacturer that you bought in a different system. Again, a rather large part of Mechwarrior games is modifying the loadouts on your mechs, every previous game, including battletech TT, allowed this. There is an expectation, I am worried their not meeting this expectation will hurt sales, especially considering it is a niche market, most of the people buying it are going to be mechwarrior fans, and I have seen several people say if a robust mechlab isn't included they werent interested. Also, the reasons they gave for taking out customization was A) to make mech variants more meaningful and so that the mech would look cool, ie if switching out an AC 10 with an AC 2 could make it look funny

An HBS Battletech level up system...without swapping the actual weapon if the situation needs it.

So, basically they took a Mechwarrior RPG tabletop campaign's Softpoint system

Spoiler

(while pretty cool is largely unknown to pretty much anyone I've mentioned it to as apparently few people have ever even done campaigns in the tabletop RPG, which the very first Mechwarrior that Russ keeps mentioning as the inspiration for MW5: Mercs is largely based on before MW2 threw it all out for action)...

which actually is based on "levels" of equipment, i.e. an MRM-10 can be swapped with an LRM-10, an SRM-6, or a Mech Mortar/2 for ease of change (basically there's less of a penalty) if the swap is for something within this 'level' and in the same classification (Missile, and yes, Mech Mortars are classified as missiles...for some reason). (LRM-5 with SRM-4 and Mech Mortar/1. LRM-15 with Mech Mortar 4. etc...)

And then made it a Hardpoint system...
which basically says "It has to be one of these things (period)" rather than "it has to be one of these things or you're gonna have a bad time."
Or as you've described, they have made it a literal X-only system. "Sorry, only a medium laser goes here, but here's a selection of 4 or 5 different medium lasers that we did absolutely no research on but cobbled together because pink lasers look cool. Look, this one does rainbows!"

Meh. Its workable, and can be worked around. Not a big deal. And at least PGI admits...their mechs look ******* stupid when we do this.

....Yet we still can. (Fun fact: That was when it was first released, and each of those is Streak SRM-2s.. Someone ticked the wrong box of what should appear.)

So. Sooner or later I gotta find a transcript for the AMAs because lets be perfectly honest... they take too ******* long just "Uh..." "Uhh..." "Uhhhhh....."

Anyway, it doesn't change much I already planned to rework it and got a few documents typed up of exactly how.

[Jay Leon Hart]

No customisation, no need to purchase - that's half the fun for me, so I'd (almost) prefer if they don't add it, then I can spend my money elsewhere.