332 replies to this topic

[C0VVB3LL]

In tabletop when you were doing something that would degrade your accuracy the game applied a modifier making you roll higher to hit your target. Why not just apply a "to hit modifier". A good way to implement this might be to adopt the mechanic from Ghost recon (old school ghost, not the dribble they're trying to pass for ghost recon now). For those not familiar your cross-hair was made up of four "pips" that contracted or expanded based on what you were doing. Your round would end up somewhere inside the pips, the closer together they were the more accurate you were. If you were running or turning fast accuracy was degraded and the pips spread out. If you laid down prone and still vs standing upright and swinging your barrel around... they were as tight as that weapon was capable of. Makes since to me at least. A mech standing still or even crouching is a more stable firing platform than a mech sprinting through rough terrain, getting hit with heavy weapons, or even bouncing up and down with JJ.

[Kargush]

People want to ban alpha strikes, boating, jump sniping and legging.

What's next, banning backshots and ambushes?

My vote is to keep it in. If someone feels like pop-tarting, let them. There are ways to strike back at them.

[Dlardrageth]

kargush, on 01 January 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

People want to ban alpha strikes, boating, jump sniping and legging.

What's next, banning backshots and ambushes?

My vote is to keep it in. If someone feels like pop-tarting, let them. There are ways to strike back at them.

Great, by that reasoning, if everything was so fine the way it used to be (MW4? Hahahaha... ), why even bother with a new game? You could as well ask PGI to merely revamp the graphics on MW4 or simply keep on playing that one. If nothing is going to change (especially some of the major flaws of MW4), why even bother?

You are actually arguing for MWO not being developed/published, are you aware of that? Because with only some minor cosmetic changes to the old (and IMHO flawed bigtime) MW4, the "new" MWO won't go anywhere. The same old (very limited) player base that still keeps playing MW4 would go for it, the rest who gave up on MW4 quickly, won't bother with it. And random new people? Don't expect them to become all crazy about a slightly revamped MW4. If it were that easy, MW4 would still have a playerbase in the high 5-digit area.

[cyphr]

I see both sides of the argument, truth be told though, I'm n favor of whatever tactics win the fight with the least damage possible. If this means mounting a gauss rifle and jump jets, and hanging out behind a ridge, that suits me fine.
However, don't be surprised when I latch onto you with a light mech out of nowhere and knock your gun out, or if I'm in an angry mood, load up a guasszilla anihhilator (5 gauss rifle, 8 tons ammo) , and put 5 rounds into your chest at the same time.

[Glory in the Highest]

Dlardrageth, on 01 January 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Great, by that reasoning, if everything was so fine the way it used to be (MW4? Hahahaha... ), why even bother with a new game? You could as well ask PGI to merely revamp the graphics on MW4 or simply keep on playing that one. If nothing is going to change (especially some of the major flaws of MW4), why even bother?

I don't think anybody is saying that. Or anything like it.

Quote

You are actually arguing for MWO not being developed/published, are you aware of that? Because with only some minor cosmetic changes to the old (and IMHO flawed bigtime) MW4, the "new" MWO won't go anywhere.

This doesn't make much sense. Nobody is asking the devs to make MW4. All we've been saying is that the idea of tactical limitations because some people refuse to make use of those tactics is silly. It's very possible that in MWO, jump sniping won't be viable. But something else will be very viable, we just don't know what it is, yet. That's going to be called "cheap", too, as soon as the heads start rolling.

[FireDog]

Forced First Person and Line of Sight radar will take care of the boring grind of poptarting players. If the maps have any terrain features at all the snipers will always have to honor the threat of short/medium range attack mechs.

[Fear Radick]

FireDog, on 01 January 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

Forced First Person and Line of Sight radar will take care of the boring grind of poptarting players. If the maps have any terrain features at all the snipers will always have to honor the threat of short/medium range attack mechs.

Winner.

[William Nilliam]

2 cents...

Sniping (poptart or otherwise) is a legitimate tactic, hampering it through game mechanics would detract form the experience. Unless the hampering made sense, or more realistic. the shooters these days use a realism to prevent the sniper from unbalancing the game
MW3 has the scope waggle to simulate the release of breath which prevents the semi-auto accurate terror from a mile away.
BF3 makes effective use of physics and bullet travel and drop to prevent the "crosshair on=dead" scenario. just zig-zagging in BF3 reduces the effectiveness of snipers

Both of these improvements are realistic, and prevent the game from turning into sniper only conflicts. sniping from cover is viable and powerful, but doesn't unbalance the game.

As for Mech games, a realistic catch can be implemented along these lines, the shudder created from jump jets raising a 65 ton Mech off the ground should cause some erratic targeting reticles for the pilot. Not eliminating the chance of a shot but greatly hampering it.
The gyros should be working overtime keep the Mech vertical for the landing, not rock-steady for a sniper shot from 1000 meters

[Kristov Kerensky]

kargush, on 01 January 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

People want to ban alpha strikes, boating, jump sniping and legging.

What's next, banning backshots and ambushes?

My vote is to keep it in. If someone feels like pop-tarting, let them. There are ways to strike back at them.

See the bolded line...remember that song...'one of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong'...in that list of things you claim people want banned, 1 of them is not found in the BTech TT game or in any previous version of the BTech computer games...guess which one!

We don't want to see 1 tactic that's not used in ANY versions of the game but MW4 because the actual game doesn't ALLOW it to be a very useful tactic for the majority of situations. Fix the game mechanics that are broken and allow it to happen, that's all we ask. You want to jump up and try and snipe, GO FOR IT! But do it under the proper game mechanics, so that if you actually HAVE the skills, you can pull it off, no more magical 1 shots on anything short of a badly build Assault, but you can still use the tactic and hit stuff. Just won't see it being used by enough of the playerbase to become literally game defining as we did with MW4. 3rd person point of view cameras that had fully working targeting systems combined with the smooth as silk jump jet which magically ran without heat and landing wasn't something you bothered to pay attention to cause you ALWAYS land fine. Fix those broken mechanics..that's all..tactic can still be used..but it ain't all that great anymore.

[The Kappa]

You can't remove sniping from the game or complain about it. Some mechs are designed to be snipers, snipers need to be agile, have a single weapon that does enough damage to scare other mechs and have a back up weapon. One of my favorite mechs the Hollander is built for a sniper role. You can't avoid it. There are also mechs that are meant to be head hunters which work just as effectively at hunting down snipers. There are ways to deal with every strategy. The exterminator and spector are built for headhunting though the spector won't be out, the exterminator certainly is. Learn to deal with it. Mech battles aren't decided by running in guns blazing. They reuire strategy and mechs to fill different roles.

[Kurohyou]

it's a tactic. Learn to adapt Killing the mech in mid air will end that tactic quickly.

[SilentWolff]

I posted this in the other sniping thread.
Bottom line is there nothing wrong with jump sniping as long as its not done in 3rd person and no perma radar lock. End of topic.

[Dlardrageth]

Kurohyou, on 01 January 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

it's a tactic. Learn to adapt Killing the mech in mid air will end that tactic quickly.

It's a "tactic" that utterly ruined MW4 multiplayer gameplay for many. Why do we need to adapt? Because some people fear they cannot hack it any more without totally OP jumpsniping? Well, if they cannot adapt, they prolly better keep playing MW4. Or some other totally-uber-skill-intensive arcade FPS.

Poptarting can't be that skill-intensive and demanding if so many insist on it remaining as is. And only insist in that single case. No other "tactic", just "jumpsniping", weird coincidence, isn't it? One could almost get the impression some people are afraid they'll actually have to L2P without it...

[Kurohyou]

Dlardrageth, on 01 January 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

It's a "tactic" that utterly ruined MW4 multiplayer gameplay for many. Why do we need to adapt? Because some people fear they cannot hack it any more without totally OP jumpsniping? Well, if they cannot adapt, they prolly better keep playing MW4. Or some other totally-uber-skill-intensive arcade FPS.

Poptarting can't be that skill-intensive and demanding if so many insist on it remaining as is. And only insist in that single case. No other "tactic", just "jumpsniping", weird coincidence, isn't it? One could almost get the impression some people are afraid they'll actually have to L2P without it...

I wouldn't get worked up over it. The game looks more like MPBT: Solaris rebooted.

[Pht]

GaussDragon, on 31 December 2011 - 12:32 AM, said:

Over the course of the few weeks I've been on these forums, I've at times derided the most absurd suggestions that make this game a glorified spreadsheet with a pretty-looking GUI called CryEngine 3 (Pht I'm looking at you buddy).

People's selective reading and/or memories around here, while not surprising, are still annoying.

Pht, on 29 November 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

As for using the TT stuff in a VG - the idea is not to pursue slavish adherence to the various rules, exactly in form, with no care for the translation to a VG format and no care for the concept of MW being a first person armored combat sim game set in the BTU.

Rather, the various rules establish outlines to work with; and you toss out ALL of the piloting rules that simulate anything that we, the VG players, can control with our PC's and their peripherals.

Exactly how the various rules are implemented in the back-end of the VG format is not an issue as long as they cause the VG to interact with the player in a way that intuitively makes sense in the player's head. In other words, if a simpler fix for a problem can produce the same "intuitively good" result as a more complex fix, there's no reason to go over-kill and chose the needlessly more complex fix.

Pht, on 04 December 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

The dice simply map out the ability of a 'Mech; the probability can be dropped in, graphed and smoothed out and dropped in, whatever. It's a baseline that gives real, hard, useful paramaters on how capable a 'Mech is.

...

What the TT rules describe as to how accurate BTU weapons are does not make them "inaccurate" - the weapons are bloody terrifyingly accurate, as should have been obvious from my first post. What keeps BTU 'Mech combat from being insta-gib UT style headshot fests and allows for a bit of fun combat is that the 'Mechs, while being darned capable, can't get all of their weapons to hit with "pixel accuracy."

Pht, on 04 December 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

That's only a tiny part of it - what I'm trying to say is that when you say "I want to simulate what it's like to pilot a battlemech in the BTU" than you go to the TT for the baseline. Otherwise, you're not making an MW game; you're making a Frankensteins monstrosity with some visual and name similarities to the BTU

You claim that the idea that I gave to implement this use of the TTR as outlining the capabilites of the BTUniverse 'Mechs with is absurd - it is not - and nowhere beyond a few replies in two threads have you or anyone else given given good reasons to call it absurd.

You're simply assuming the point you need to prove.

Edited by Pht, 01 January 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Soturi05]

Like i have stated earlier i have no problem with sniping as it is usefull to a TEAM and that is the key word there as a team as far as i know in the real world is not COMPLETELY made up of snipers , however jump sniping should not be so easily done as in MW4, mechs are heavy and not aerodynamic so using jumpjets should be like trying to fly an oil tanker and if you dont cushion your landing with something that weighs 20-100 tons you should not land without parts giving out or being damaged, sniping is not the issue the issue is everyone doing the EXACT SAME THING and every match bluring together into boring jump sniping/alpha striking matches that force people to either jump snipe as well or attempt the exact same flanking meneuvers EVERY... SINGLE... TIME... and i am certain PGI will not let that happen.

[Kargush]

Dlardrageth, on 01 January 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Great, by that reasoning, if everything was so fine the way it used to be (MW4? Hahahaha... ), why even bother with a new game? You could as well ask PGI to merely revamp the graphics on MW4 or simply keep on playing that one. If nothing is going to change (especially some of the major flaws of MW4), why even bother?

You are actually arguing for MWO not being developed/published, are you aware of that? Because with only some minor cosmetic changes to the old (and IMHO flawed bigtime) MW4, the "new" MWO won't go anywhere. The same old (very limited) player base that still keeps playing MW4 would go for it, the rest who gave up on MW4 quickly, won't bother with it. And random new people? Don't expect them to become all crazy about a slightly revamped MW4. If it were that easy, MW4 would still have a playerbase in the high 5-digit area.

What manner of moon logic is that?

I said I find it silly to ban legitimate tactics, not that I didn't want progress or a new game.

Kristov Kerensky, on 01 January 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

See the bolded line...remember that song...'one of these things is not like the others, one of these things doesn't belong'...in that list of things you claim people want banned, 1 of them is not found in the BTech TT game or in any previous version of the BTech computer games...guess which one!

MWOnline is not BT TT. Other than that, in all the computer/console games I've played that were based on BT TT, you'd find all of those (well, OK, no alphastrikes (that I recall) in MechAssault).

[SilentWolff]

Soturi05, on 01 January 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Like i have stated earlier i have no problem with sniping as it is usefull to a TEAM and that is the key word there as a team as far as i know in the real world is not COMPLETELY made up of snipers , however jump sniping should not be so easily done as in MW4, mechs are heavy and not aerodynamic so using jumpjets should be like trying to fly an oil tanker and if you dont cushion your landing with something that weighs 20-100 tons you should not land without parts giving out or being damaged, sniping is not the issue the issue is everyone doing the EXACT SAME THING and every match bluring together into boring jump sniping/alpha striking matches that force people to either jump snipe as well or attempt the exact same flanking meneuvers EVERY... SINGLE... TIME... and i am certain PGI will not let that happen.

The 2 main reasons battles happen like that on MW4 is because of 3rd person games and the perma radar lock. You take those 2 things out, which PGI has said they are going to do and I think you reduce the problem greatly.

If the LoS is anything like WoT, then jump sniping will be limited at best. Youll need those light mechs to keep enemies "lit up" for any extended period of time and that makes things dicey for the light mech. Also, the devs have also said we will have probes that can be launched over parts of the battlefield, I love this idea. It will FORCE people to not camp. I really just dont see jump sniping as being anywhere near as effective as it was in MW4 with this new type of gameplay.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kargush, outside of MW4, jump sniping or poptarting, didn't exist as a viable tactic that entire TEAMS used every single drop. You could attempt it in MW1/2/3 and the GEnie MPBT, Solaris MPBT and the BattleTech 3025 beta, but it was always a trick shot, NOT a tactic you relied on for more then those 'holy hell did you SEE that shot!' moments. It's even possible to try it in TT..but using it every single shot? That ONLY existed in 1 single iteration of the game, MW4.

Alpha shot..exists in TT and all versions of the MW games(MA is NOT included in that list btw, please stop trying to include it).
Legging..exists in TT and all versions of the MW games.
Boating..exist in TT and all versions of the MW games.
Jump sniping..exist only in MW4 as anything but a one off situation, in MW4 it is THE most commonly used tactic.

So..you see..my little song was quite on target there.

[Eegxeta]

I hate snipers the only fun part about them is when you sneak up behind and blow the living **** out of them.