183 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Lances107, on 14 March 2019 - 04:14 AM, said:

The Nightmare that could kill MWO has begun. The last two days Ive seen more LRM boats then I care to count. Terrible bracket builds with LRMs are through the roof. So here is a problem with some of what I have read so far. The radar Derp percentage is way lower then the nodes that allow you to retain lock when someone goes behind cover. If I remember correctly each retain lock node is a upwards of 200 percent, while the radar derp one is at 10 percent. Maybe off by 10 percent on the radar derp nodes. Pre skill tree. If a LRM boat locked on to you, you powered down until they lost lock and kept playing the game. Now they can retain lock even if your powered down. Even worse the LRMs of the IS will be able to break through triple ams with the proposed changes to go live. Players better then me did the math. This does not even cover the LRMS going for peoples legs.

I made a commitment I intend to complete, however once that is done, if these changes go live and the q because LRM battles. I am done with MWO, and I can tell you I will not be the only one. This is the worse set of planned buffs I have ever seen. Especially the velocity buffs.The curious thing is rumor has it you are doing this to force lrms into comp. Force feeding your customers is a good way to go out of business.

Right now the games will be filled with LRMs because "deal damage". LRMs are known for dealing large amounts of spread damage, and as dropping targets isn't the goal for the event, people don't care if they spread damage. So it has nothing to do with the upcoming changes, but the currently running event that is creating this effect you are seeing.

As for Adv. Target Decay vs Radar Deprivation, here are the numbers:
-Adv Target Decay: Each node appears to add a set +0.7 seconds onto the lock. This makes the target lock last longer. There are a total of 4 5 ATD nodes through the skill tree (with a total skill investment of 11 SPs). This will add a total of +2.4 seconds to any target lock. (This does not reflect actual missile lock time, but does help keep locks after live of sight has been broken.)
-Radar Depritvation: Each node does 20% faster decay on locks on yourself when line of sight is broken. There are a total of 5 such nodes on the skill tree. It is a 16 point cost to take all Radar Dep skill nodes, which has an end result of 100% radar decay.

AKA; Radar Dep is actually better and more powerful than ATD, but to take all of them does cost more skill nodes (SP) than ATD does. A Radar Dep of 100% (last I knew and from my own experience) means locks are dropped as soon as line of sight is broken. If you have a 100% Radar Dep, it does not matter how much ATD your opponent might have, as it's not going to do them any good.


On other news, AMS still is rather effective, but most players neglect to take it (myself included most times). A single AMS can take down (with perfect positioning) upwards of 20+ missiles (considering the skills as well). On average though, most people will see about 5-8 missiles shot down by a single AMS. (20+ is an unusual high number that can be achieved.)

AMS helps reduce the impact of missiles (of particular note LRMs and ATMs). It is not a perfect shield against them. If the enemy takes missiles en-mass, and all of them are heading to a single target, AMS will help, but it wont stop all of them. AMS is a soft counter to LRMs, so you should never expect it to be a total and complete shield to LRMs, especially when it's massed LRMs.

On note of the changes, I can't overly say how it will impact them. Faster velocity will mean less time for AMS to take their effect. After this change, it's very likely AMS might see a boost to compensate. (I will mention though, AMS got a boost one of the earlier times LRMs got a velocity buff, the velocity boost to LRMs was rolled back, but AMS changes where not. So we've actually been working with a more powerful AMS than we had before hand in comparison to LRMs. Just a little history/side note.)


Don't forget the other lock on missile counters: ECM and Stealth Armor. They should also be mentioned and considered in this discussion.


Edit: Corrected number of ATD nodes from 4 to 5. I missed one on the bottom. This also increases the number of skill points needed to snag all 5 of them, and also increases lock time by 3.5.

Edited by Tesunie, 14 March 2019 - 05:31 PM.

[Nevermore223]

time for another missle buff....QUOTH THE RAVEN...

[JPeiper]

I used to use my LRM boat about 1 in 10 plays ,a change from brawling etc ,as it's a totally different play style (as it used to be FUN!) Just played A few games (1 nov 23)and it's now rubbish. I cant keep a lock for long enough for the missles to land due to the velocity nerf and the rad dep perk even using B probe and Targeting/Command C. As a non LRM mech I can't keep locks for any (rare) LRM boats on team anymore and I'm not just talking solaris or hellbooooore here.
I used to run ECM where possible but I don't need that now as long as I have a few rad dep points...See how many players use LRMS now? Pls fix it or loose Lerm boat players- But I suppose those who want to turn MWO into a COD clone will be happy with this , after all, lerming a light in the open was the ONLY way a heavy or assault could knock out a light quickly before having your behind shot out...
LRM boats promote teamplay, you live or die by locks.loose these players and you risk the game. Pls fix it.

[Nevermore223]

A good spotter with narc and tag running tandem with a decent LRM boat can swing a game, but you gotta have support from the team keeping the OPFOR in position...problem is ya got too many 1 way players who want everyone to play their way....and to hell with everyone else. I think it's sad you would not want to utilize everthing at your disposal to be effective in a match...seems wastefull to me...but then again, being selfish nowadays seems to be a requrement to exist.

[Tivian]

As a founder I left the game after the first LRM nerf. I came back in March to see how the game was. LRMs are deadly when they hit. But I still was not having fun with LRMs and the game didn't support my play style.
With a Targeting Comp IV and Probe I can't even get locks long enough to send missiles. And that is against NON ECM covered targets!!! And then even if I get targets and get damage down range I get targeted by invisible fleas that have no consequences to face hugging me and do you think I am going to get help? I have completely changed my play style with the help of a good unit that has teachers in it. I NEVER play LRMs anymore! I either adjusted or quit again.
To me the worst thing in this game is not the LRMs like everyone complains about. It's the stealth lights that are invincible!! Even if I have energy or ballistics their machine guns are more powerful than the weapons I CARRY that they can't!!
If I am a battle ship with 16'' guns and I am being shot at by an Iranian speed boat..I can't turn with it...my guns can't track...BUT if I hit that speed boat with a 16'' shell what do you think is going to happen???? is it going to OUT RUN my shell's damage???
If I hit a flea with an LBX 10 or 20 it should SHATTER that mech.

Edited by Tivian, 07 November 2023 - 05:39 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Targeting Comp and Active Probe do nothing for your locks against targets in LOS. Out of LOS, they apply a minor buff because they increase your nominal sensor range.

[Hagen Zwosta]

As a new player I can say without a doubt:
LRMS are the most stupid and fun killing weapon in the game. It would be much better without.

[JPeiper]

I'm right with Tivian, On many a thread I'll kick off about the OP lights and start anoying people . All I'll say here is that pixel small lights armed with (what looks like) 15 mg's and micro pulse with massive ammo perks (2000+ i think)and NO ghost heat and running at light speed is changing MWO for the worse.
MWO should be a tactical game, where teamwork wins .LRM use promotes teamwork. As an occational LRM boat player (not anymore) only 1 in 10 salvoes where to locks I could see, all of it was from team locks,or better , a narc.
In the games however a chat msg of "LRM boat here pls keep locks " is amazingly polarising, I'll either get "ok" or something less repeatable with a shout NOT to lock up ! This ties in with what Hagen says above, some players hate LRM's and I can see why as if you are out in the open/no ecm or few rad dep pionts you are going to get wrecked, TBO if you do that in any game you'll get it !
One of MWO's strengths and greatest weaknes is it's complexity and steep learning curve, a good COD player won't last
long, get frustrated and quit ,you can't win or survive by just having the fastest and most heavily armed mech on the field ,you need to think in a way that you don't in COD /battlefield etc (I could have includes fallout 76 in that but people would laugh!).
I would say to Hagen that if they stay with the game and figure out how to deal with LRM's you'll find another "fun killing weapon" a bit quick -in my case the light mech with a good pilot.....
I would also suggest to Tivian that with the LRM nerfs/rad dep etc I think that lrm boats will be killed off, with the latest nov patch removing spread from hags (so why use the old gauss then?) the game is moving to a COD playstyle (run jump crouch shoot wash and repeat) and it may be time for us old tactical players to move on...Well done cauldron, and happy whale catching!!

[ScrapIron Prime]

I keep proposing that the goal should be to fix LRMs as a viable weapon system without bringing back clouds of doom raining from the skies.

The solution would be to improve missile speed and spread FOR DIRECT FIRE ONLY. Then you can use them as a kind of half damage MRM with a minimum range and sometimes score a hit with indirect fire.

I'm not sure the code supports such an improvement for direct fire only, but so far all the discussion has involved shooting the messenger, so it hasn't been too productive.

[Void Angel]

Probably the best way to fix LRMs is to remove indirect fire. You could also make indirect a dumbfire mode, but I don't think there's a good way to control that in MWO. The problem with LRMs is twofold: that they are feast-or-famine, and whichever it is, at least one person isn't having fun; and that if they are effective in direct-fire, their additional ability to indirect fire makes them too strong, and vice versa. This last one is the thorniest, in my mind, because it makes a good balance point nearly impossible to achieve.

Removing indirect mode solves or ameliorates all these things. Retain current direct-fire functionality, remove target decay, and rework radar deprivation (if possible) to delay sensor detection rather than speed up losing lock. It's not a perfect solution, and would need adjustments for balance, but it will allow PGI to balance the system based on one avenue of effect, instead of needing to herd two balance cats that want to go different directions.

[Void Angel]

JPeiper, on 20 November 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

with the latest nov patch removing spread from hags (so why use the old gauss then?)

You'd use regular Gauss over HAGs for much the same reason you might use regular Gauss over ERLLs. A lot of ERPPC or Gauss sniping builds will dramatically out-trade a HAG build in a direct sniper fight, which is a good thing. I haven't played with them enough since the patch to develop an opinion on whether the heat nerf that was also introduced this month is enough, but HAGs' burst duration does put them in a different niche from the normal, single-slug Gauss.

[Hagen Zwosta]

JPeiper, on 20 November 2023 - 05:03 AM, said:

I would say to Hagen that if they stay with the game and figure out how to deal with LRM's you'll find another "fun killing weapon" a bit quick -in my case the light mech with a good pilot.....

Oh dont worry about me. When the lobby is filled with those LRM lamers I just play a med with 3 AMS and a bunch of med lasers. MY record is 1600 LRM shot down. It quickly makes them reconsider their life choices. And I can still do enough damage to climb in rating.
Its just a stupid no skill weapon that has the potential to ruin many matches. Thats all.

[Tesunie]

Umm.... People do realize this topic is from back in 2019... It is currently 2023. A few years too late.

[Void Angel]

Oh, we know. But the last time I sang the Necro Song, the mods told me that months and months aren't actually a necropost according to forum rules - then ignored me when I asked what the limit was. So I guess anything goes!

[Hagen Zwosta]

Tesunie, on 30 November 2023 - 04:53 PM, said:

Umm.... People do realize this topic is from back in 2019... It is currently 2023. A few years too late.

It is still as relevant as it was in 2019. Why make a new thread.

[Tesunie]

I guess I can't comment on that. According to the rewards program, I only managed to play... 13 matches all year so far. Got to love living situations that stop all fun activities...

I will say, throwing LRMs around on the testing grounds on stationary mechs over the last few days did feel like throwing wet noodles at them now... Not exactly sure what has changed (if anything)...

[Hagen Zwosta]

Well I just wanted to give feedback as a new player.
I play for centuries and can tolerate a lot. I am not easy to turn away from a game that I am interested in.

There are 2 things that almost made me quit this game:
- LRM
- stupidly small invisible mechs

Make of it what you want.

[ambosen]

Hagen Zwosta, on 19 November 2023 - 11:33 AM, said:

As a new player I can say without a doubt:
LRMS are the most stupid and fun killing weapon in the game. It would be much better without.

So you haven't played the game at all, really. LRM's as a problem mostly only exists in people's memories long ago of when they were viable weapons in comparison to literally everything else in the game.

[ambosen]

Tesunie, on 01 December 2023 - 07:28 AM, said:

I guess I can't comment on that. According to the rewards program, I only managed to play... 13 matches all year so far. Got to love living situations that stop all fun activities...

I will say, throwing LRMs around on the testing grounds on stationary mechs over the last few days did feel like throwing wet noodles at them now... Not exactly sure what has changed (if anything)...

Among other things they're one of the only weapons in the game that have had repeated and substantial accuracy, damage, heat generation, time to target and more nerfs done to them, and people still keep demanding them, often forgetting that LRM's have a vital role in the game in support of team movements.

LRM's are also far more dependant upon optimal range for effectiveness then pretty much every other weapon in the game except perhaps flamers (which alone of all weapons in game have a maximum range below 100 meters and optimal range of under 30 meters and even lower damage per second values then LRM's combined with extremely high heat generation, making them effectively useless as an actual weapon.) They also have different behavior at certain ranges and targeting situations.

MRM's, ATM's, Rocket launchers, and SRM's just as missile currently all outbeat the LRM in every possible category except theoretical maximum range, and in the case of MRM's, depending upon your mech chassis bonuses, equipped skills, and supplemental systems build, the MRM difference in range isn't much )960 meters versus 1000, for example is possible on one mech I own and one reason why MRM optimized mediums and heavies are so popular; you effectively get everything LRM's at their best can do except non LOS attack for a cheaper, more ammunition efficient more damaging weapon), and to top it all off Inner sphere and Clan LRM's are different behavior and optimum usage wise, due to what are unique to them mechanics which aren't really reflected in equivalent weapon categories between either family of mechs and weapons. ATM's are basically a sometimes LRM, sometimes SRM with a damage penalty depending upon range and the 150 meter no damage at all penalty mechanic of inner sphere LRM's to boot that best is a sidegrade to clan SRM's with penalties.

It doesn't help that they've nerfed AMS systems simultaneously to the point they are primarily viable against LRM's alone and do little to nothing else against other missile category weapons, causing many players to not even equip that defensive subsystem anymore except during events where AMS damage is one of the categories people need to fill out.

More and more I'm thinking this game's real problem is the devs willingness to allow what's commonly referred to as the idiot's veto.

[Tesunie]

ambosen, on 02 December 2023 - 01:50 PM, said:

So you haven't played the game at all, really. LRM's as a problem mostly only exists in people's memories long ago of when they were viable weapons in comparison to literally everything else in the game.

I missed the time where Artemis LRMs hit only the head component by a few months... Yeah. The hay day. No mech survived an LRM strike then!

I was here when the Jeagermech was released and seemed to almost be all head hit box... That was a fun mech release!


How viable LRMs are on the current battlefield, I am not certain anymore. When I was playing far more regularly, LRMs were at a decent place, for me at least. I never boated them, so I wasn't as impacted by that feast or famine attribute many people experienced. Taking a good mix has served me very well for many years here. On the testing grounds (not confident enough to join live play yet after almost a year away), my builds are feeling too hot and not hard enough hitting. (I also have been experimenting with some of the new weapons, like X-pulse...)