137 replies to this topic

[thievingmagpi]

lrms don't need to be viable at all.

[K O Z A K]

Vxheous, on 02 March 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

LRM 90 Nova Cat B

this thing is hilarious for its weight

[Prototelis]

HammerMaster, on 02 March 2019 - 07:05 PM, said:

A single ALRMx20 needs to be viable and it isn't.

NO. it does not. SINGLE weapons don't need to be viable. Mechs with a low amount of hardpoints need quirks that make sense.

[Simbacca]

All my InnerSphere mechs except for my ECM Lights and Mediums run AMS. As for my Clan mechs only a handful. AMS alone serves to reduce the incoming missile damage, but massed AMS can stop fair sized LRM attacks.

Probably the easiest way to encourage including AMS in builds (which *may* help to reduce the issue of high alpha's) is changing the payout system to be more generous in C-Bills and XP for AMS equipped mechs.

[Phoenix 72]

Well... When Lurmaggeddon came again mid 2018, I did some extensive research on AMS. I talked to the most prolific lurmers and they checked their accuracy. It was 28-32% for most of them. Over all their matches. Of course, it will be higher on Polar and will most likely be lower on Solaris City. But that was the average over thousands of matches.

One AMS with with 1 ton of ammo and skill nodes will shoot down anything between 300 and 350 missiles. In about half my matches I field at least one AMS. Of course, I also have the AMS on Polar Highlands where I may run out of ammo really fast, as well as Solaris City, where I end the match with 2194 ammo left. On SC, it was a waste of tonnage. On PH I should have brought more of it.

So on Lurm-heavy days, I saved my team about 100 worth of armour per ton of ammo, by slightly reducing my damage output. Fair enough. On Lurm-less days, I slightly reduced my damage output for 0 gain for my team.

So most people go for the route that will give them slight upgrades always, instead of a less tangible help sometimes. Especially as 1 ton of ammo is gone really quick when the enemy has even 1 dedicated lurm boat, at best giving you a little extra time to get organised and nothing else.

Having said that, something around 45% of my matches, I field at least 1 AMS and in around 25% of my matches 2-3. If in doubt, I will play my Crab 27 with double AMS. For me, the cost of the AMS is worth it. But I can understand the people for whom it is not.

I think the easiest route for AMS to become more prevalent is for PGI to improve rewards for using it. Give it a cash bonus you get because you saved the team mechanic some work. Improve match score a little more than it does and there will be more AMS. Of course, you have to be careful or nobody will be using missiles anymore, at all, if the rewards go overboard...

[Jman5]

Darakor Stormwind, on 02 March 2019 - 10:19 PM, said:

Well... When Lurmaggeddon came again mid 2018, I did some extensive research on AMS. I talked to the most prolific lurmers and they checked their accuracy. It was 28-32% for most of them. Over all their matches. Of course, it will be higher on Polar and will most likely be lower on Solaris City. But that was the average over thousands of matches.

After yesterday, I was curious about what my accuracy numbers would be under today's balance, so I brought my old hunchback 4j out of retirement and played 5 games in it. Using the stat page(before/after), your match damage number, and ammo spent, you can figure out your per missile hit percentage in each game. The maps I played were Polar Highlands, Polar Highlands, Solaris City, Mining Collective, and Canyon Network. My accuracy on the two LRM10A were:

• Polar: 68.92% (785 dmg)
  
• Polar: 59.43% (781 dmg)
  
• Solaris: 59.33% (473 dmg)
  
• Mining: 66.30% (427 dmg)
  
• Canyon: 55.26% (396 dmg)
  
• Average: 61.65%

I dunno guys, I can see these numbers going down to maybe 40s and 50s if I were being careless or playing with clan lrms. But some of these matches I played also felt pretty AMS heavy and I was only shooting 20 missile volleys. I don't see how these people you talked to can only manage 28-32% unless they have got some serious build and decision making issues.

[General Solo]

Only takes one piece of hard cover to neut 10 LRM80 Boats.
Or dont get locked in the first place
So cover, I never leave home without it.

Just dont find AMS very usefull, I only run it for event rewards LOL
I pilot assaults, and they dont have ams's

Wont say I never die to Lerms, but its uncommon enough dat AMS is dead weight most of the time.

You may think thats selfish, what about your mech broes standing in the open
My reply is, dont help people when they can help them selves

This way they learn not stand in the open instead of learn to rely on my AMS'es

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 03 March 2019 - 09:28 AM.

[Yiryi-Sa]

OZHomerOZ, on 03 March 2019 - 08:50 AM, said:

I pilot assaults, and they dont have ams's

Uh... what? There are plenty of assaults with AMS; granted, the ratio of AMS per mech is much lower for Clan assault mechs. Omni pods exist that have AMS (and some with bonuses).

Edit: Unless you mean to say you don't pilot your assaults equipped with AMS...

Edited by Yiryi-Sa, 03 March 2019 - 09:17 AM.

[General Solo]

Yes I meant I dont do ams on my mechs
assault mechs included

[Phoenix 72]

Jman5, on 03 March 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

I dunno guys, I can see these numbers going down to maybe 40s and 50s if I were being careless or playing with clan lrms. But some of these matches I played also felt pretty AMS heavy and I was only shooting 20 missile volleys. I don't see how these people you talked to can only manage 28-32% unless they have got some serious build and decision making issues.

I don't know whether they were playing Clan or IS. I just remember one of the guys saying he had something like 6,000 matches played with LRMs. I also do not remember who it was, but maybe one of the hardcore lurmers can jump in, if they read this.

[Jman5]

Darakor Stormwind, on 03 March 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

I don't know whether they were playing Clan or IS. I just remember one of the guys saying he had something like 6,000 matches played with LRMs. I also do not remember who it was, but maybe one of the hardcore lurmers can jump in, if they read this.

I used to be one of those a few years back when LRMs were much worse and my LRM 10 numbers are at 49.17%. With the way they are now and with the upcoming changes I'd be pretty shocked to find people doing sub 40% hitrate these days. Especially if they're experienced at all in LRMing. They would have to be doing something very wrong like not running target decay, or being terrible at anticipating lockloss.

Like I said in an earlier post the numbers don't really make sense. If you were only hitting with 28% of your damage, it would require 3,500 missiles just to break 1,000 damage. That's about what I bring on my Stalker in Faction play and it often does about twice that before running out.

Edited by Jman5, 03 March 2019 - 09:54 AM.

[East Indy]

I will say, after peeking into the game after a few weeks' break: having 6-7 assaults per match doesn't help the disproportionate influence of lock-on boats.

It gets overlooked most of the time, but facing off with 3-4-3-2 for weight class representation, or even 2-4-4-2, provides a very different experience.

Edited by East Indy, 03 March 2019 - 10:55 AM.

[Nightbird]

Jman5, on 03 March 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

After yesterday, I was curious about what my accuracy numbers would be under today's balance, so I brought my old hunchback 4j out of retirement and played 5 games in it. Using the stat page(before/after), your match damage number, and ammo spent, you can figure out your per missile hit percentage in each game. The maps I played were Polar Highlands, Polar Highlands, Solaris City, Mining Collective, and Canyon Network. My accuracy on the two LRM10A were:

• Polar: 68.92% (785 dmg)
  
• Polar: 59.43% (781 dmg)
  
• Solaris: 59.33% (473 dmg)
  
• Mining: 66.30% (427 dmg)
  
• Canyon: 55.26% (396 dmg)
  
• Average: 61.65%

I dunno guys, I can see these numbers going down to maybe 40s and 50s if I were being careless or playing with clan lrms. But some of these matches I played also felt pretty AMS heavy and I was only shooting 20 missile volleys. I don't see how these people you talked to can only manage 28-32% unless they have got some serious build and decision making issues.

Those results are biased because you played with the intention of posting the results, if you want to share your LRM accuracy, just take a screen shots of your stats page. With all LRM weapons. Don't worry, we'll disregard weapons you haven't used much.

I mean, most people don't use LRM10s to begin with, LRM 15s and 20s without artemis is what you normally see, so the spread is 100% worse than what you're doing.

That's not necessarily bad though, 500 damage with LRMs is like 200 damage with direct fire...

[HammerMaster]

thievingmagpi, on 02 March 2019 - 07:06 PM, said:

lrms don't need to be viable at all.

Disagree.

Prototelis, on 02 March 2019 - 09:25 PM, said:

NO. it does not. SINGLE weapons don't need to be viable. Mechs with a low amount of hardpoints need quirks that make sense.

Disagree.
Anything else from you two negative nancies?

[VonBruinwald]

Prototelis, on 02 March 2019 - 09:25 PM, said:

NO. it does not. SINGLE weapons don't need to be viable. Mechs with a low amount of hardpoints need quirks that make sense.

Single weapons SHOULD be viable. The problem is you can't make them so, if you do, try-hards boat them en masse to exploit their capabilities; this is exactly why they boat weapons rather than bringing a mixed loadout in the first place.

Quirks are a fall-back option, unfortunately the quirks are lacking for many.

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 03 March 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

Single weapons SHOULD be viable. The problem is you can't make them so, if you do, try-hards boat them en masse to exploit their capabilities; this is exactly why they boat weapons rather than bringing a mixed loadout in the first place.

Quirks are a fall-back option, unfortunately the quirks are lacking for many.

People boat because making your mech good at one role is better than being mediocre at seven different roles. Mechs being fairly durable also increases the necessity to specialize in one bracket (so you don't take an eternity to kill things). Lastly, it's also just more logical and simple than loading up ten completely unrelated weapons systems that have no synergy with one another.

[thievingmagpi]

HammerMaster, on 03 March 2019 - 11:45 AM, said:

Disagree.

Disagree.
Anything else from you two negative nancies?

yeah, learn to aim.

VonBruinwald, on 03 March 2019 - 12:00 PM, said:

Single weapons SHOULD be viable. The problem is you can't make them so, if you do, try-hards boat them en masse to exploit their capabilities; this is exactly why they boat weapons rather than bringing a mixed loadout in the first place.

Quirks are a fall-back option, unfortunately the quirks are lacking for many.

reminder again that "try hards" is just bads slang for "anyone better than me"

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 03 March 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

People boat because making your mech good at one role is better than being mediocre at seven different roles.

Until you get caught in the wrong situation. You should always bring back-up weapons especially if you're bringing LRMs/ATMs. If you're spurting laser-vomit like a clanner on a first date you should at least know how to use firing groups and manage your heat. I'm sure you've noticed the wailing from vomit pilots who pop themselves atm.

Tip: If your torsos gonna go, curb your heat before it blows!

[FupDup]

VonBruinwald, on 03 March 2019 - 01:02 PM, said:

Until you get caught in the wrong situation. You should always bring back-up weapons especially if you're bringing LRMs/ATMs. If you're spurting laser-vomit like a clanner on a first date you should at least know how to use firing groups and manage your heat. I'm sure you've noticed the wailing from vomit pilots who pop themselves atm.

Tip: If your torsos gonna go, curb your heat before it blows!

Min range weapons are really the one exception to the general rule because they are completely useless in a given bracket rather than just less effective (i.e. you can still use Gauss and ERLL on somebody in your face). Such mechs will still be trying to keep the red team at arm's reach for most of the match, with the backup lasers being a last resort only.

[VonBruinwald]

FupDup, on 03 March 2019 - 01:06 PM, said:

Min range weapons are really the one exception to the general rule because they are completely useless in a given bracket rather than just less effective (i.e. you can still use Gauss and ERLL on somebody in your face). Such mechs will still be trying to keep the red team at arm's reach for most of the match, with the backup lasers being a last resort only.

A mixed build would be more effective in those situations where it's counter part would be less effective. It's swings and roundabouts really. I'm not saying you need one weapon for every situation but you should at least cover your own back.

Also, ammo runs out