137 replies to this topic

[MiZia]

Scout Derek, on 05 March 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

Just keep in mind BAP doesn't counter stealth armor, in case one decides to not bring TAG.

Cant say it for sure but stealth is only disabled by ppc hit, btw here my aws lrm stats LRM 15 153 17,074 8,645 50.63% 22:34:36 106,132
50% accurancy while using it in FP with some sort of tagger/narcer

[Nightbird]

MiZia, on 05 March 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

Cant say it for sure but stealth is only disabled by ppc hit, btw here my aws lrm stats LRM 15 153 17,074 8,645 50.63% 22:34:36 106,132
50% accurancy while using it in FP with some sort of tagger/narcer

This is the calculation I want to use:

106,132 damage / ( 17,074 shots * 15 missiles) = 41% accuracy rate

[Khobai]

FupDup, on 05 March 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

Narc still has non-missile uses for giving your team red doritos on enemies who are behind cover and for defeating ECM. TAG also defeats ECM and can counter Stealth Armor. That's not amazing, but it's better than taking AMS against an enemy team that has no missiles.

nobody takes narc just for that though. its not enough. narc needs to do more. just like AMS.

again the problem is not just unique to AMS. a lot of the utility equipment in MWO is just too damn niche and doesnt have broad enough applications.

ideally each piece of utility equipment should have at least one niche application and one broader application.

so like AMS could shoot down missiles or function like an extra machine gun/small laser

TAG/NARC could tighten missile spread/improve missile tracking but also have other abilities like explosive pods for narc and calling in ARROWIV for TAG.

BAP could come with a pair of seismic sensor probes you could inject into the ground.

Etc... just ways to make all that niche equpment less niche. And by making it less niche people might start using it more often.

Edited by Khobai, 05 March 2019 - 05:39 PM.

[Jman5]

Bud Crue, on 05 March 2019 - 12:13 PM, said:

https://mwomercs.com...es-and-artemis/

Actually it once provided its benefits to both LOS and Indirect fire, assuming I read Chris’s OP explanation correctly regarding it once providing a “global boost” despite the old dev threads saying it required LOS. Frankly, I am still confused as to what Artemis does now, let alone what it used to do.

Nightbird, on 05 March 2019 - 02:05 PM, said:

It was never supposed to give spread reduction for indirect fire, but it did until OCT2018.

I don't think that is what he was saying. He said that target lock speed and tracking strength were working indirectly. He mentions spread bonus in there but never said it was working incorrectly. In fact in a later post to ash he seems to be saying he was mistaken.

Quote

No one can provide accuracy stats because PGI screwed them up. Don't take it personally. I would have been fine if the stats were usable, but as you can see the accuracy calculation changed midway through. The only data we have is a few game you've played, do you personally see that as a good average for the entire playerbase?

There were 4 points of evidence. My weapon stat page which included accurate hit rates from the old system. 5 current games I played, your weapon stat page which is from unknown times but don't show any 25%, and a video example where I worked out your hit rate for LRM 15/20. While there are limitations and flaws to each their value, collectively they are painting the picture of a 40-70% hit rate range.

The fact of the matter is that these are not autocannons. You don't have to carefully lead your target and fire precisely to hit. It's a lock on weapon. There is a fairly low skill ceiling when it comes to accuracy for lock on weapons. While I'm not expecting average players to have 60% hit rate, I can't imagine they would be 25-33%. I just don't see that as anywhere close to reasonable for a weapon that does the aiming for you.

If you are not happy with the quality of evidence there are ways to find more data:

1. Go copy/paste your stats into a spreadsheet and then sometime down the road compare them. Multiply "Fired" by tubecount then divide it by damage difference between the two data points. That will give you your average hit rate without the hodge podge of old data screwing it up.

2. Alternatively go play a LRM variety that you have no data on and that will only populate with the current counting method.

3. Find someone with an account from the last year or so and take a look at their weapon stat page.

4. You can always just watch videos of people playing lrm boats who you consider average and then calculate their accuracy by their damage and ammo usage. (ideally all lrms, but if they have 1 or 2 lasers you can just guesstimate the damage from those). I just did that with one of Baradul's games and conservatively he managed 40% hitrate with clan LRM 15s despite throwing a lot of missiles away specifically to "suppress" opponents.

[50 50]

Jman5, on 02 March 2019 - 06:31 AM, said:

Staying alive longer, keeping components intact longer, keeping allies alive longer are all useful attributes. This is why I make an effort to fit AMS into a lot of my builds.

I like this comment.
As a player in a team game I like the option to be able to contribute something to my team.
It may not stop a mech from being destroyed but it may be the difference between that mech getting into cover instead of becoming a smoking wreck somewhere on the battle field.

Nightbird, on 02 March 2019 - 12:30 PM, said:

In other words, out of the 200 missiles 2 tons of AMS shoots down, only 50-66 missiles would actually hit, and of those, 10 damage that actually contribute to you or your teammates death would be prevented. 2 tons for 10 hp is not a good trade-off.

Not sure about those numbers.
Could look at it the other way around as well in that AMS provides damage reduction, or extra armour points (hp) against missiles for as long as it is operational beyond what a mech's ablative armour can.
It is also one of the very few shared systems in the game, ECM being another.

Edited by 50 50, 05 March 2019 - 07:01 PM.

[Simbacca]

50 50, on 05 March 2019 - 06:58 PM, said:

Not sure about those numbers.
Could look at it the other way around as well in that AMS provides damage reduction, or extra armour points (hp) against missiles for as long as it is operational beyond what a mech's ablative armour can.
It is also one of the very few shared systems in the game, ECM being another.

For me all my InnerSphere mechs run AMS (except for my light and medium ECM equipped mechs) - and with one exception if they can mount two AMS then I mount both (Spider Anansi is the exception only 1 AMS). Clan mechs - where possible.

Personally, I found that a single ton of AMS ammo (as I only assign a single ton per AMS) is able to defeat around 185 to 200 LRMs - but this really depends on positioning.

A single AMS can defeat a single LRM5 attack and significantly reduce the effects of a single LRM10 attack. However some LRM attacks are downright massive with some mechs running 80, and up to 100 tubes. Clan based LRM attacks are more vulnerable to AMS due to their firing pattern. Massed AMS (and honestly the most I have seen is 3 mechs on a team running it) can shutdown smaller LRM attacks - but large scale swarms, not surprisingly overwhelm such a defence).

Against ATMs at range AMS does have an advantage. Against small scale attacks AMS can defeat long range ATM fire.



To encourage more AMS mounting make them able engage SRMs and Streaks as well. Thus they provide a more all round defence against all missile attacks. For LRM missile HP - a slight reduction such that a single ton of AMS ammo is enough to shoot down 250 to 300 LRMs to help deal with the issue of the massive LRM clouds.

[FupDup]

Simbacca, on 05 March 2019 - 08:07 PM, said:

To encourage more AMS mounting make them able engage SRMs and Streaks as well. Thus they provide a more all round defence against all missile attacks.

AMS does already shoot all missile weapons except Narc I think. However, certain missiles tend to either be used at short enough ranges ([S]SRMs) that AMS doesn't have enough time to shoot them down or there are simply too many missiles for AMS to be effective against them (MRMs).

[Nightbird]

FupDup, on 05 March 2019 - 08:10 PM, said:

AMS does already shoot all missile weapons except Narc I think. However, certain missiles tend to either be used at short enough ranges ([S]SRMs) that AMS doesn't have enough time to shoot them down or there are simply too many missiles for AMS to be effective against them (MRMs).

AMS shoots narc, but 2 maxed out AMS only have a 50% chance of shooting 1 down.

[Simbacca]

FupDup, on 05 March 2019 - 08:10 PM, said:

AMS does already shoot all missile weapons except Narc I think. However, certain missiles tend to either be used at short enough ranges ([S]SRMs) that AMS doesn't have enough time to shoot them down or there are simply too many missiles for AMS to be effective against them (MRMs).

Personally, I have not encountered SRMs being shot down by AMS, same goes for Streaks.

With that said, it should not be that difficult to change the game code to permit AMS to engage SRMs. And taking a look at sarna.net - AMS did reduce the effect of a SRM attack.

If need be allow the user to switch between SRM/LRM modes (if ammunition consumption is getting excessive based on player experience).

Massed attacks will always get through (part of the advantage of boating), but at least a portion of those attacks can be neutralized - which thereby increases survivability.

Edited by Simbacca, 05 March 2019 - 08:35 PM.

[Phoenix 72]

Simbacca, on 05 March 2019 - 08:07 PM, said:

Personally, I found that a single ton of AMS ammo (as I only assign a single ton per AMS) is able to defeat around 185 to 200 LRMs - but this really depends on positioning.

With maxxed skills it is about 300-350, in most ordinary matches.

[Curccu]

Simbacca, on 05 March 2019 - 08:34 PM, said:

Personally, I have not encountered SRMs being shot down by AMS, same goes for Streaks.

AMS shoot down any and every kind of missiles, SRMs are just usually shoot that close and with that high velocity that AMS doesn't have much time to take them down.

[Greyhart]

Darakor Stormwind, on 05 March 2019 - 10:11 PM, said:

With maxxed skills it is about 300-350, in most ordinary matches.

Using 3 LAMS or should I say 2 LAMS and 1 AMS with half a ton of ammo (the heat in some games was crazy). I can shoot down about 1500 missiles according to the end stats. Admittedly I am not doing much else sometimes with the heat build up but I hope being around the assaults this protections gives them time to kill the enemy. Makes for an interesting match score

given that AMS is purely defensive I don't see any reason not to give it a big buff. Perhaps double the range, so it can shoot down at SRM top range and increase the damage or fire rate.

[Phoenix 72]

Greyhart, my best result ever was in a Nova, shooting down 1600+ missiles (and still losing the game). I was using 2 AMS with 3 tons of ammo and 1 LAMS. I daresay you completely crippled the offensive capability of your build with using 2LAMS. And you will need to help do damage to win games. While the stats may look fun and you will get some decent match score out of it, you will still lose more than you win.

I found that the limitation of how many missiles I can shoot down depends more on other concerns than the AMS. I have a Crab 27 with 5 tons of ammo, enough to shoot down 1500-1750 missiles. I never lived long enough to get half that, because eventually there are just too many people shooting at you.

I rarely field more than 3 tons worth of AMS ammo anymore, because anything beyond that is not worth it. If you shot down 1000 missiles and your team has not managed to get an advantage over the other team by then, nothing you can do will improve your odds.

[Greyhart]

Darakor Stormwind, on 06 March 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

Greyhart, my best result ever was in a Nova, shooting down 1600+ missiles (and still losing the game). I was using 2 AMS with 3 tons of ammo and 1 LAMS. I daresay you completely crippled the offensive capability of your build with using 2LAMS. And you will need to help do damage to win games. While the stats may look fun and you will get some decent match score out of it, you will still lose more than you win.

I found that the limitation of how many missiles I can shoot down depends more on other concerns than the AMS. I have a Crab 27 with 5 tons of ammo, enough to shoot down 1500-1750 missiles. I never lived long enough to get half that, because eventually there are just too many people shooting at you.

I rarely field more than 3 tons worth of AMS ammo anymore, because anything beyond that is not worth it. If you shot down 1000 missiles and your team has not managed to get an advantage over the other team by then, nothing you can do will improve your odds.

I agree. But you know it was fun and annoying. And if I am playing a role (missile defence) then I am playing that role. Assuming only a third of the missiles caused damage that is still a reasonable contribution to the team in keeping the assaults alive.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 05 March 2019 - 05:35 PM, said:

nobody takes narc just for that though. its not enough. narc needs to do more. just like AMS.

again the problem is not just unique to AMS. a lot of the utility equipment in MWO is just too damn niche and doesnt have broad enough applications.

ideally each piece of utility equipment should have at least one niche application and one broader application.

Except Narc DOES have a broader application. It can be used to pin point the enemy location, his loadouts, as well as his health for 30-45 seconds. A very useful application even if there are no friendly guided missiles to take specific advantage of.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 March 2019 - 05:32 AM.

[Khobai]

El Bandito, on 06 March 2019 - 05:22 AM, said:

Except Narc DOES have a broader application. It can be used to pin point the enemy location, his loadouts, as well as his health for 30-45 seconds. A very useful application even if there are no friendly guided missiles to take specific advantage of.

if you say so

because nobody takes narc specifically for that reason. if they did youd see people running around with narc way more often.

people either just dont take narc at all or they take because they have a friend(s) whos using LRMs. but nobody takes NARC just to fire beacons at people because its not good enough.

again AMS, NARC, TAG, BAP, etc.... all need broader applications because their too niche and the lack of a broader application is the exact reason people dont use them.

the utility equipment in MWO is just not good. It needs to be better.

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2019 - 12:22 PM.

[InfinityBall]

Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-, on 01 March 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

Weapons, Armor, Heatsinks, Engine, Consumables. A real mechwarrior does not need anything else. (Same goes for quirks)

You don't need AMS when you can shoot at the LURM boats and make them back off/turn away and lose lock.

poser.

[VonBruinwald]

Khobai, on 06 March 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

because nobody takes narc specifically for that reason. if they did youd see people running around with narc way more often.

people either just dont take narc at all or they take because they have a friend(s) whos using LRMs. but nobody takes NARC just to fire beacons at people because its not good enough.

I do, I run a Narc on my Bludgeon and Night Gyr. Being able to see your opponents moving behind a wall is invaluable when you can't keep pace. The think they're gonna flanking you and you're ready with an Alpha to the face.

People quite often don't realise they're Narc'd till they're being lurmed or someone else makes them aware, which during a brawl is even less often.