271 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 05:55 AM, said:

The air in the room wil heat up MUCH quicker when 30% of the stove are removed . Simple experiment : Stand in front of a stove burning wood with its loading door closed . Now, open the door, keep standing at the same spot . What do you feel ?

Dumb example is dumb. Will it heat up instantly? No it will not. And following your example mech should actually become cooler after losing a torso, since losing a torso is exactly like opening a door of a stove.

[PhoenixFire55]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 05:05 AM, said:

Again: If you destroy a Heatsink, which is hot, what exactly happens to the energy having been stored in the HS as Heat ?

'Heat' in a heat sink is not water in a glass. It doesn't exist if heat sink doesn't exist anymore. Tell me EXACTLY how you destroyed the heat sink and I will tell you what happened to the heat "stored" in it.

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 05:05 AM, said:

Seriously...you destroy a hot/heat storing/dissipating part of a 'Mech that has been inside the 'Mech , and NEITHER the already existing Heat in that part, nor - should it be blown up - the explosion of the part, or the component housing that part,have ANY kind of thermal effect on the 'Mech the exploding ("being blown up") part has been INSIDE of ?

Funny. You are so concerned about what happens to the amount of energy stored in a component in form of heat (and since its stored it means that such amount of energy isn't enough to destroy the component), yet you are not concerned about heating effects of incoming fire (i.e. the incoming energy that is more than enough to destroy the component, or much more 'heat').

Cut a hot donut in half with laser. Did the right half of the donut made any kind of thermal effect on the left half? No it didn't.

VonBruinwald, on 18 March 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Better but still not quite there.

The heat bar represents the heat retaliative to the heat capacity.

Something divided by a constant is pretty much exactly the same that it is by itself. Scale in this particular situation means nothing. What he said was 100% correct.

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 05:49 AM, said:

First thing: nope . When talking external HS, basically pretty much like modern Cars radiators ( https://auto.howstuf...ling-system.htm ) .

Second thing: as VonBruinwald pointed out .

Obviously you know nothing about BT lore and how heat sinks actually work. Lets leave it at that.

[VonBruinwald]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 06:44 AM, said:

Rant...

Dude, chill [pun intended] you're making so many assumptions and so many mistakes in the process while failing to take the system as a whole into account.

Can we just clarify something for all the car radiator fanatics out there... compliments of Sarna:

Quote

Heat sinks, while sharing names with real world passive radiators found in computers, are actually complete heat pumps, not "true" heat sinks in the engineering sense.

Heat sinks operate by collecting heat with coolant distributed to heat sources (weapons, engines, myomers, electronics, etc.) and delivering that to a radiator. Because a BattleMech may operate in environments considerably hotter than the interior of the 'Mech, the system includes a heat pump to "force" the heat out of the 'Mech by elevating the temperature of the coolant in some reversible fashion. (The vapor-compression heat pump of home air conditioners is a typical example, but 31st Century BattleMechs may make use of more exotic heat pumps.)

Edited by VonBruinwald, 18 March 2019 - 06:55 AM.

[RickySpanish]

Yeah but we're not lasering donutsin half, bruv. We're rendering components inoperable ("destroyed") which are in most cases, still attached to the 'Mech. Those heatsinks have a capacity, when that capacity is met they could very well be storing more energy than a laser impacting the 'Mech. We don't know the exact value so all we can do is hypothesise. My hypothesis is that you should quit before you make yourself look even sillier

[PhoenixFire55]

VonBruinwald, on 18 March 2019 - 06:54 AM, said:

Dude, chill [pun intended] you're making so many assumptions and so many mistakes in the process while failing to take the system as a whole into account.

Point them out. You haven't found a single one yet. Until then, keep your useless demagogy to yourself.

[iLLcapitan]

who gives a rat's *** about all those RL examples. you guys talking about walking robits animated by space magic. it's just a unfun mechanic and thus another nail in the coffin for this once fun game.

[PhoenixFire55]

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 06:55 AM, said:

Yeah but we're not lasering donutsin half, bruv. We're rendering components inoperable ("destroyed") which are in most cases, still attached to the 'Mech. Those heatsinks have a capacity, when that capacity is met they could very well be storing more energy than a laser impacting the 'Mech. We don't know the exact value so all we can do is hypothesise. My hypothesis is that you should quit before you make yourself look even sillier

Typical nothing to say personal insults paired with reading comprehension failures.

Again, in case you haven't noticed previous three times. If it is still attached then there is no reason whatsoever to transfer its heat anywhere to begin with.

[VonBruinwald]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 06:56 AM, said:

Point them out. You haven't found a single one yet. Until then, keep your useless demagogy to yourself.

Le sigh. You keep saying "heatsink" and "Battlemech" as if you know what it actually is. FYI, there is not a single Battlemech made by humanity in existence yet. Hence you don't know what it is and how it works.

[PhoenixFire55]

VonBruinwald, on 18 March 2019 - 07:10 AM, said:

Le sigh. You keep saying "heatsink" and "Battlemech" as if you know what it actually is. FYI, there is not a single Battlemech made by humanity in existence yet. Hence you don't know what it is and how it works.

Well, should we close the forum, shut down the server and go home then?

The general principles of heat sink operation in conjuncture with mech operation are written in tech manuals and books. The ridiculous heat transfer on torso loss mechanic introduced by PGI contradicts both those principles and real life physics. Sure, its Their Position at the Time^TM again, but I reserve my right to call it sh*t when I see its sh*t.

[VonBruinwald]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 07:31 AM, said:

Well, should we close the forum, shut down the server and go home then?

The general principles of heat sink operation in conjuncture with mech operation are written in tech manuals and books.

And they specifically state they are heat sinks in name only, they're actually heat pumps. Yet you keep arguing based upon the thermodynamic properties of heat sinks.

[RickySpanish]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

Typical nothing to say personal insults paired with reading comprehension failures.

Again, in case you haven't noticed previous three times. If it is still attached then there is no reason whatsoever to transfer its heat anywhere to begin with.

Oh I am sure there is no reason, in that the pilot would really rather that heat didn't just sit there like a huge, unexploded bomb, radiating into the rest of the 'Mech... But it will. Because thermodynamics. How quickly will that happen? That's a good question, but it most assuredly will be a problem for anything nearby trying to cool itself down. It would be interesting to maybe factor CASE into this, which could perhaps offer some way to contain the immediacy of the heat transfer. Clan 'Mechs have CASE by default so that would make Clan XL torso loss a little more survivable than IS LFE.

[Prototelis]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 05:49 AM, said:

First thing: nope . When talking external HS, basically pretty much like modern Cars radiators ( https://auto.howstuf...ling-system.htm ) .

Second thing: as VonBruinwald pointed out .

First thing; absolutely yes. Because battlemechs are able to cool in environments hotter than themselves it stands to reason it does this by increasing the heat in the heatsink. A regular ol' radiator system doesn't work that way.

Second thing; Von bruinwald was agreeing with and clarifying my post.



I've pointed out before that according to the lore that heatsinks can be manually tuned. IE, metered or shut off by the pilot. It is safe to assume that on component destruction the pilot is manually closing the valves to that part of the system or the battlemech is doing it automatically.

Due to how heatsinks actually work, they either;
A. Also contain the component analagous to the evaporator in a home AC system and dissipate their own heat normally
B. Rupture, vent, or mechanically expel the coolant contained within as they continue to heat up.


What would make sense; Dissipation is much lower for a few seconds on component destruction, moves to current loss of dissipation values after a few seconds. This represents the small amount of heat that would conduct into the battlemech itself and its effect on the parts of the coolant system closest to the point of destruction.

What doesn't make sense; All of the heat in a destroyed component magically transferring back into the system.

[PhoenixFire55]

VonBruinwald, on 18 March 2019 - 07:36 AM, said:

And they specifically state they are heat sinks in name only, they're actually heat pumps. Yet you keep arguing based upon the thermodynamic properties of heat sinks.

What does it matter? ... If they are pumps they pump something else - a heat conducting medium that is present in them and internal heat transfer system that covers the entire mech. If you cut off a % of that system and a % of that medium, it still doesn't magically transfer the heat that was present in that % onto the remaining part.

And needless to say, since we got case system that prevents damage (i.e. heat, kinetic energy, whatever energy) transfer into the CT when a side goes pop, there surely would have been an exact same case system for the heat transfer system that would prevent the heat transfer in the exact same way (i.e. cut off whatever isn't needed) if it was needed. But it isn't even needed because heat can't magically instantly jump from one place to another.

[RickySpanish]

Mate, at this point we may all just agree to disagree. We have done everything to try and convince you of the metaphorical roundness of the Earth, I guess the idea just isn't...

*puts on glasses*

Transferring.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

[Lotspeech]

This mechanic was introduced to try to hide a heat bug. whether its realistic or not is irrelevant. It lowers higher skilled players ability to outplay other mechs after they lose a side torso, period. the amount of solaris and qp matches I have lost solely because of this mechanic is fairly high and I would rather have the heat bug than this mechanic. Ps the bug didnt go away either. so now were stuck with the bug and this skill ceiling weight.

also it doesnt even encourage player to keep their overrides off. even if you dont override and lose a torso the spike is so bad on most mechs that you just die anyway. and it doesnt make me want to use a std engine either pgi!

Edited by kamichiwa343, 18 March 2019 - 08:01 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 07:40 AM, said:

Oh I am sure there is no reason, in that the pilot would really rather that heat didn't just sit there like a huge, unexploded bomb, radiating into the rest of the 'Mech... But it will. Because thermodynamics. How quickly will that happen? That's a good question, but it most assuredly will be a problem for anything nearby trying to cool itself down. It would be interesting to maybe factor CASE into this, which could perhaps offer some way to contain the immediacy of the heat transfer. Clan 'Mechs have CASE by default so that would make Clan XL torso loss a little more survivable than IS LFE.

You talk about thermodynamics while you don't even understand what 'heat' is ... lol

I'll let you in on a secret ... Don't tell anyone, coz it can blow their minds off too. Heat is nothing but kinetic energy. And just like kinetic energy of a gauss slug becomes a different form of energy in order to explode your face, 'heat' stored in a heat sink can easily become something else entirely too. Like for example, the kinetic energy of bits and pieces of your exploding heat sink flying at high velocity away from your mech.

RickySpanish, on 18 March 2019 - 07:59 AM, said:

Mate, at this point we may all just agree to disagree. We have done everything to try and convince you of the metaphorical flatness of the Earth, I guess the idea just isn't...

FTFY.

[K O Z A K]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 08:02 AM, said:

We have done everything to try and convince you of the metaphorical flatness of the Earth

Edited by Hazeclaw, 18 March 2019 - 08:08 AM.

[Cyanogene]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 March 2019 - 08:02 AM, said:

You talk about thermodynamics while you don't even understand what 'heat' is ... lol

I'll let you in on a secret ... Don't tell anyone, coz it can blow their minds off too. Heat is nothing but kinetic energy. And just like kinetic energy of a gauss slug becomes a different form of energy in order to explode your face, 'heat' stored in a heat sink can easily become something else entirely too. Like for example, the kinetic energy of bits and pieces of your exploding heat sink flying at high velocity away from your mech.



FTFY.

I'm truly in awe of your continuous attempts to educate r3tarded people.

[Besh]

Prototelis, on 18 March 2019 - 07:42 AM, said:

First thing; absolutely yes. Because battlemechs are able to cool in environments hotter than themselves it stands to reason it does this by increasing the heat in the heatsink. A regular ol' radiator system doesn't work that way.

Second thing; Von bruinwald was agreeing with and clarifying my post.



I've pointed out before that according to the lore that heatsinks can be manually tuned. IE, metered or shut off by the pilot. It is safe to assume that on component destruction the pilot is manually closing the valves to that part of the system or the battlemech is doing it automatically.

Due to how heatsinks actually work, they either;
A. Also contain the component analagous to the evaporator in a home AC system and dissipate their own heat normally
B. Rupture, vent, or mechanically expel the coolant contained within as they continue to heat up.


What would make sense; Dissipation is much lower for a few seconds on component destruction, moves to current loss of dissipation values after a few seconds. This represents the small amount of heat that would conduct into the battlemech itself and its effect on the parts of the coolant system closest to the point of destruction.

What doesn't make sense; All of the heat in a destroyed component magically transferring back into the system.

Le sigh .

External HS, and only those ( since internal HS do not actually dissipate Heat XD ) collect Heat using a fluid and deliver the fluid (and Heat ) to a radiator ( this is almost literally what Sarna states XD) . That is exactly what happens in your car . Some fluid grabs heat, and that fluid goes to the radiator, the radiator grabs the heat from the fluid and dissipates it . Hence I specifically wrote "pretty much like a modern car radiator" .

The BT external HS HeatPump does not get into operation unless environmental conditions require it do so . But even if it DOES kick in, the 'Mech's internal Heat STILL gets collected by the fluid and that fluid is being transferred to the radiator first XD . Sarna states that the temperature of the coolant is "elevated by some reversible fashion" if the environment is considerably hotter than the inside of the 'Mech . This clearly indicates that the basic "mechanics" of how Heat is transferred inside the 'Mech - using a fluid to grab the Heat off hot components ( weapons etc. ) delivering said fluid to the radiator - does not change under those cirumstances . And again, this is exactly what happens in a car. A fluid grabs the heat, brings it to the radiator, radiator grabs heat off coolant, heat gets dissipated .

Edited by Besh, 18 March 2019 - 08:21 AM.

[Prototelis]

Besh, on 18 March 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

Le sigh .

External HS, and only those ( since internal HS do not actually dissipate Heat XD ) collect Heat using a fluid and deliver the fluid (and Heat ) to a radiator ( this is almost literally what Sarna states XD) . That is exactly what happens in your car . Some fluid grabs heat, and that fluid goes to the radiator, the radiator grabs the heat from the fluid and dissipates it . Hence I specifically wrote "pretty much like a modern car radiator" .

No. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink

You're wilfully ignoring this part;

Heat sinks operate by collecting heat with coolant distributed to heat sources (weapons, engines, myomers, electronics, etc.) and delivering that to a radiator. Because a BattleMech may operate in environments considerably hotter than the interior of the 'Mech, the system includes a heat pump to "force" the heat out of the 'Mech by elevating the temperature of the coolant in some reversible fashion. (The vapor-compression heat pump of home air conditioners is a typical example, but 31st Century BattleMechs may make use of more exotic heat pumps.)


That is how the second law of thermodynamics work. LEH SIGH.

Quote

The BT external HS HeatPump does not get into operation unless environmental conditions require it do so .

You're making this part up.

Quote

But even if it DOES kick in, the 'Mech's internal Heat STILL gets collected by the fluid and that fluid is being transferred to the radiator first XD . Sarna even states that the temperature of the coolant is "elevated by some reversible fashion" if the environment is consderably hotter than the inside of the 'Mech.

You are misinterpreting what is stated in the article in question, and you don't understand the second law of thermodynamics.

Quote

This clearly indicates that the basic "mechanics" of how the Heat is transferred inside the 'Mech - using a fluid to grab the Heat off hot components ( weapons etc. ) delivering said fluid to the radiator - does not change under those cirumstances . And again, this is exactly what happens in a car. A fluid grabs the heat, brings it to the radiator, heat gets dissipated .

You're ignoring "force" the heat out of the 'Mech by elevating the temperature of the coolant in some reversible fashion."


That heat WOULD NOT DISSIPATE unless the heatsink was HOTTER than the environment it is in.

Yes, it has a radiator kind of like a car. NO it does not work just like a car.

Edited by Prototelis, 18 March 2019 - 08:27 AM.