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Complete Missile Vs Ams Chart

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#1 Navid A1

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 02:45 PM

Chris did it again.
All hail Chris.

As always, PTS tests one thing, then Live brings about Ten untested significant changes, devastating the game.

JUST LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS!!!

No AMS skill nodes equipped:

Posted Image


Both AMS skill node selected:

Posted Image

Edited by Navid A1, 20 March 2019 - 02:46 PM.


#2 panzer1b

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 03:11 PM

Seems like the weapon least hurt by the new AMS is ATM-48 specifically when alfa striking. Not even 4 AMS will stop it (albeit it does put a sizeable dent in the damage you deal downstream).

What i dont like is that SRMs and now useless outside of point blank ranges against triple AMS users, and given how terrible SRMs are at this point in the game i feel this needs to be adressed in a future patch, maybee MRMs too as those get shat on as well even by small number of AMS.

#3 Prototelis

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 03:24 PM

Leave the auto aim values, put the actual aim values back where they were. Problem solved.

Also, srms were pretty legit pre-health nerf.

#4 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 05:20 PM

Well that pretty much explains why my SRM builds felt like they'd taken a round trip to shitsville last night.

#5 BrunoSSace

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 05:28 PM

This games not fun atm, only thing I feel I can use is energy. Without being gimped atm.

#6 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 05:34 PM

I smell another resurgence of spike-alpha Gaussvomit waiting in the wings.

*edit- It's worse than first appearances, too. Any low tube count missile 'Mech (for example, just about every IS light 'Mech with missiles) is just about neutered. The changes are just going to drive a rush upwards towards more spam and fewer mixed builds, which is the opposite of what PGI keeps claiming to want. There are no dividends in running anything other than the highest possible tube count on your chassis, if you're going to run missiles at all.

We're going to see more LRM80-100 and ATM48 heavies and assaults on the field, rather than fewer of them. The real losses are going to be things like SRM2 Commandos, Locusts, and Javelins, which won't be able to hit hard enough to justify their existence anymore because they can only run ~8-12 tubes to begin with. Anything less than SRM24 isn't worth bothering with now, and even then you're likely to lose half the salvo... and since 4 is the spook limit, might as well forget it.

...on the bright side, at least more people are finally running AMS.

*sigh*

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 20 March 2019 - 05:51 PM.


#7 50 50

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 07:24 PM

I see it as a war of attrition between the two systems, maybe the health of the missiles didn't need to be changed, but I would like a little more info.

An MRM 40 at 12 tons with 1 ton of ammo (no skill nodes) can fire 8.5 volleys.
An IS LRM 20 at 10 tones with 1 ton of ammo can fire 12 volleys.
Compared to a ballistic AMS at 0.5 tons with 1 ton of ammo which has 2200 rounds.

A mech that can and has equipped multiple AMS at the expense of other items should be very effective and the numbers show that a quad AMS mech can negate an MRM 80 mech and does a pretty good job of locking down an LRM 40 mech.
But for how long?

@Navid A1
Do you have any data on how much ammunition was used by the AMS system/s to go along side the number of missiles destroyed per volley?
The reason I'm asking is that on a per ton basis, equipping the AMS is extremely cheap compared to the missile systems so I would like to consider the attrition of both and whether 1 ton of missile ammo would deplete 1 ton of AMS ammo, or perhaps, how many tons of missile ammo does it take to deplete 1 ton of AMS ammo.

In regards to Laser AMS, because of what it is, perhaps it should have more of an 'overheat' function similar to the flamers or RACs so that after a period they shut down therefore simulating an 'out of ammo' effect until they cool down again. (Which may require reviewing the heat the system generates on the mech's heat scale)

#8 Navid A1

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 09:54 PM

View Post50 50, on 20 March 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

@Navid A1
Do you have any data on how much ammunition was used by the AMS system/s to go along side the number of missiles destroyed per volley?
The reason I'm asking is that on a per ton basis, equipping the AMS is extremely cheap compared to the missile systems so I would like to consider the attrition of both and whether 1 ton of missile ammo would deplete 1 ton of AMS ammo, or perhaps, how many tons of missile ammo does it take to deplete 1 ton of AMS ammo.

In regards to Laser AMS, because of what it is, perhaps it should have more of an 'overheat' function similar to the flamers or RACs so that after a period they shut down therefore simulating an 'out of ammo' effect until they cool down again. (Which may require reviewing the heat the system generates on the mech's heat scale)


For ammo-based AMS, you can multiply the "Time in bubble" stats by 30 (which is the AMS rate of fire) to get the number of bullets fired

#9 WrathOfDeadguy

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 10:07 PM

Apologies for the incoming wall of text, but I'm gonna hammer the keyboard a bit. I'm annoyed, and I'm going to spread the love and do a rant-o-analysis on what I think are the likely effects of the nerfs.

--------

Missile health on SRMs and MRMs did not need a nerf. Those systems already have advantages and disadvantages compared to other direct-fire options, offering high damage per ton but suffering from a very short effective range (with a hard range cap which the missiles explode upon reaching rather than experiencing damage falloff like other direct fire weapons), slow projectile speeds, and poor damage focus. That left SRMs and MRMs balanced vs. lasers, which offer the lowest tonnage cost and best accuracy but with a high heat cost, and ballistics which run cool and (mostly) offer better damage focus and higher projectile speeds than missiles, but cost more in tonnage and slots.

Simply put, direct-fire unguided missiles did not need to be countered by AMS at all. They were already balanced using the same factors that balance other unguided direct-fire weaponry. Losing effectiveness vs. AMS, for the unguided missiles- especially by such a huge margin- also means that they lose effectiveness compared to other already-just-as-good direct fire weapons which do not have counters.

Remember, just because the size of the volley is reduced before impact doesn't mean the spread reduces with it. Before, firing an MRM40 delivered a cluster of 40 missiles with ~15 landing on the targeted component, ~15-20 more on the 'Mech somewhere, and 5-10 missing the target... assuming that you were highly skilled with the weapon.

Now you're going lose 20 or so to AMS (against just one AMS), but some are still going to miss, and some are still going to scatter to components other than the one you meant to land the volley on. In the end, you might end up only doing 5-ish effective damage with that launcher, which just isn't worth it. For the same cost as a MRM40 and 3-4 tons of ammo, you can have a UAC10 and 2-3 tons of ammo... but all of it hits the target with no chance of interception, and how much of the damage hits the targeted component is limited only by your personal skill.

The math does not work out for the missile launcher there. It is now objectively weaker than other weapons requiring the same or similar investment in tonnage and crits, despite requiring just as much skill to use (if not more- MRMs aren't as fast as AC or Gauss slugs). It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what the consequences are for missile-based 'Mechs. Since brawl and midrange direct-fire trading will no longer be options for them, they'll either get shelved... or else they'll switch to using LRMs (and/or ATMs if Clan) so that, even though they're still going to lose a big chunk of their volley, and even though indirect locks now take longer to acquire, at least they won't be losing trades left and right just to get some damage in.

--------

Guided weapons do need counters like AMS and ECM, along with a heap of other limitations, because they otherwise would be unbalanced. Having a weapon which partially or completely aims itself is a huge advantage. Since the level of effort required by the weapon is lower, it makes sense to also have low-effort counters for it, with a relatively low tonnage and slot cost because the 'Mech attempting counterplay also needs to carry its own weapons.

Even here, though, the changes don't have the desired effect. Indirect fire with massed large launchers will be encouraged, rather than discouraged. Since so much of every volley is going to be lost, LRM and ATM boats will tend to avoid trades because they won't be able to out-damage ballistic and energy builds in direct engagements. If they hide and fire indirectly, they will probably lose even more damage, but it will be unopposed damage, making it by far the better option. We may see fewer missile boats overall, but the ones we do see will more often be exactly the type that prompted this balance pass in the first place.

And AMS usage is not going to decrease- it will increase. The effectiveness of the equipment is so high now that it's almost mandatory- much like ECM was back in the days of the 180m magic bubble (better, even- there's only one 'Mech that can't take AMS: the CDA-X5). One AMS shaves off enough damage to survive an alpha that otherwise would've killed you. Two AMS neuters one large missile launcher completely. More than that, and you're ignoring whole alphas from some lights and mediums. That's an insanely good deal. Any 'Mech capable of taking two or more AMS basically must take them now, because otherwise they'd be throwing a game-winning advantage against any and all missile builds- not just the ones that have lock-on mechanics.

--------

The TL;DR version: Kiss your SRM and MRM poptarts and brawlers goodbye for a while. You can expect to lose half or more of every volley you fire, so you might as well just bring ballistics or lasers instead. Also expect to still see 80-100 tube LRMboats hanging out under cover in the backfield, because that's pretty much gonna be the only way to win trades with non-ATM missile builds once everyone figures out just how powerful AMS really just became. Streakboats will be affected somewhat less because their prey of choice (fast lights) mostly can't carry enough AMS to defeat them, and frequently leaves the protective shell of their team.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 20 March 2019 - 10:10 PM.


#10 crazytimes

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:47 AM

To be honest, I had no dramas with SRM shennanigans today. 16 tube Griffin and 16 tube Bushwacker. I see what the testing says, but in the thick of battle with missiles flying everywhere, srms seemed to have no problems getting through in general.

MRMs were in a world of hurt- 40mrm TRD was having none get through against 4AMS corsair when there were other mechs around. 6ml were though.

ATM hit and miss. The flight path seems different, I swear they corkscrew with LOS.

I'll be shelving MRM builds for a bit. ATM okay. SRM was my best performer today across the board. LRM are for a bit of relax, maddog I always ran as a LOS build anyhow, it did great. SNV-A 70 tube i took out once, it did great, but I think the other team was light on and and it has 2lpl that did a fair chunk of my damagenthat game


#11 Ensaine

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 02:23 AM

On SRM's, yeah, they hit, but, they hit better the closer to the target you are. If you're face tanking the mech, then you'll have good results.

If you're at optimal range, things change.

My buddy had 2 AMS, lost his weapons, and only had his AMS left. An SRM Assassin was chasing him, and blasting away at him, not one SRM hit. As both mech ran approx. the same speed, the assassin could not close, thus remained at some range.

#12 Thorqemada

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 03:08 AM

I would increase the minimum and maximum range of AMS, lower its DPS (giving shorter range Missiles some value back), and make multiple AMS less coordiinated which means they may occasionally hit all the same Missiles killing only 1 instead of 3 or 4 (or you can simply make Mechs with multiple AMS have a diminishing return for each additonal AMS equipped which should be easier to do).

AMS through Walls - i would like to have my AMS shoot through other Mechs armor alike ;)

#13 Dimento Graven

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 10:35 AM

All the missiles seemed to work just fine last night.

Direct fire LRM/ATM was able to get through my 4 AMS Corsair's AMS (with double skill activated). I never noticed a situation where I wasn't getting hit by missiles.

I think all this is a "OMG IT CHANGED, IT ISN'T AS EASY AS I WAS USED TO, SO IT'S NOW BROKEN!!!" Chicken Little, "the sky is falling" histrionics.

And yeah, when you're dropping with groups and you have 5 Broadsides on your team, yeah, missiles will be F'd if you're firing those LRMs at targets where more than 1 Broadside happens to be.

Good.

Computer guided weaponry should have a lot of drawbacks and counters in a skills based game.

Firing 'shot gun blasts' of 'dispersed' fire weaponry at or near maximum range SHOULD have consequences on effectiveness.

Even so, I STILL managed to be killed by ATMs/LRMs in my BR more than once last night. The changes in direct fire effects motivated quite a few LRM/ATM users to actually hunt with the team making finding cover a constant issue. If the LRM'rs are on the move cover can only last so long (as changes in position even before becoming directly visible tends to change the effectiveness of your cover).

It will be interested to see what happens to the game once the majority of the players have finished off skilling up their Broadsides, and finish off the Corsair challenge. Quite frankly the Corsair is yet another VERY LARGE 'mech that is absolutely squishy because it's so damned hard to miss. And the effect of those odd shaped hit boxes REALLY make torso twisting INCREDIBLY ineffective (hell I had an open CT, jammed myself DIRECTLY FACE FIRST into a wall, and a MORE THAN HALVED SRM boat (I think it had two SRM 4's left) STILL cored out the front CT on my Broadside. Obviously there's a portion of the CT hit box reachable from the rear).

Anyway, give it time, I'm sure once the dust settles and you unlearn the previous style, and learn the new dynamics, you'll be back to free computer guided, unskilled, limp wristed damage in no time. Posted Image

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 March 2019 - 10:37 AM.


#14 dwwolf

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 10:48 AM

I managed 250 dmg with LRM90 today on polar highlands most of that well within TAG range.
I only fired off ~2500 LRMs.

God forbid I can actually use LRMs to do damage.

Artemis and or NARC (with LRM70 ) make no difference. ATM 36 gets its salvos deleted almost instantly.

I can only conclude that PGI has no clue.

Edited by dwwolf, 21 March 2019 - 10:48 AM.


#15 dwwolf

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 10:52 AM

The only fix I can think off with current AMS and missile health stats would be to decrease AMS accuracy based on range.

#16 Sug

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 01:41 PM

Or just have one standard health for missiles.

#17 Mystere

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 03:21 PM

View PostSug, on 21 March 2019 - 01:41 PM, said:

Or just have one standard health for missiles.


Different health values for the exact same missile merely placed on different launchers just make no sense at all. What was PGI thinking? <smh>

Edited by Mystere, 21 March 2019 - 03:22 PM.


#18 Dimento Graven

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 03:23 PM

Yeah absolutely, 2nd day after patch and people have stopped bringing so much AMS, and yeah, missiles are f'ing OP. The missile arc, I was watching C-LRMs fly up over the spire in Old Forest Colony, and come almost straight down on their target.

Yeah, anyone claiming that missiles are broken now, f'ing lying.

I recommend making sure EVERY 'mech be rebuilt to have AMS...

#19 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 03:57 PM

IMO, lock-on missiles (streaks, LRMs, ATMs) should have low health, while non-guided missiles (SRMs, MRMs) get their previous values.

View Postdwwolf, on 21 March 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

I managed 250 dmg with LRM90 today on polar highlands most of that well within TAG range.
I only fired off ~2500 LRMs.

God forbid I can actually use LRMs to do damage.

Artemis and or NARC (with LRM70 ) make no difference. ATM 36 gets its salvos deleted almost instantly.

I can only conclude that PGI has no clue.


Damn I guess you'll have to use something that doesn't aim itself for you

#20 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 04:05 PM

View PostNavid A1, on 20 March 2019 - 02:45 PM, said:

Chris did it again.
All hail Chris.

As always, PTS tests one thing, then Live brings about Ten untested significant changes, devastating the game.

JUST LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS!!!

No AMS skill nodes equipped:

Posted Image


Both AMS skill node selected:

Posted Image


Nice proof that the Clans get totally F'ed the hell over with much less effective missiles unless they are boated en-mass. Typical PGI balancing, balance LRMs based on the worst possible scenario and the hell with anyone who wants to mount 1 or 2 launchers. God I hate how PGI has just ruined 90% of clan mechs to balance just a few top performers.





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