66 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 02 April 2019 - 07:34 PM, said:

computer guided, RNGesus centric weapon systems...

Please clarify which part of LRMs involves RNGesus?

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2019 - 07:27 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 03 April 2019 - 07:23 AM, said:

Which part of LRMs involves RNGesus?

The part that determines where the missiles land. Other than with SRMs and MRMs (and then only to very general degree, but only because they aren't computer guided), it's not possible to focus a specific component on a target with guided weaponry, it hits only what RNGesus says it does.

[dwwolf]

Thats patently wrong. LRMs tracks the average position of a mech. Each missile has a position ofset that it keeps during the flight.
Plenty of missiles track themselves into the ground.

[Dimento Graven]

dwwolf, on 03 April 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

Thats patently wrong. LRMs tracks the average position of a mech. Each missile has a position ofset that it keeps during the flight.
Plenty of missiles track themselves into the ground.

Then show me an intentional headshot with LRMs/ATMs...

Y'know, the one where you hit nothing but the cockpit?

[OmniFail]

Khobai, on 02 April 2019 - 07:32 PM, said:

But if PGI added a 1.5 ton piece of equipment that halved energy or ballistic damage, people would be absolutely livid about it, because those categories contain all the weapons that players actually use and expect to be good.

This statement is only partially true. For it to be totally true first you have to add another 1 ton piece of equipment that limits the usage of ballistics and energy weapons (like ecm) before they can actually be used.

Then you would be closer to the truth.

To sum it up.

If there were a 2.5 ton equipment option only had to be carried by only one opposing mech, that would reduce the usage of 20 to 30 tons of laser and ballistics weapons and their supporting equipment to half of normal usage rate and then at only half damage, then people would be absolutely livid about it.

Way to keep you weapon viability promise guys.

Edited by OmniFail, 03 April 2019 - 09:49 AM.

[OmniFail]

Dimento Graven, on 03 April 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Then show me an intentional headshot with LRMs/ATMs...

Y'know, the one where you hit nothing but the cockpit?

I know where you are going with this Dimento. Even with launching millions of LRMs you can never get even a accidental occasional head shot for 1 point of damage. Not even with dumb fire.

[Dimento Graven]

OmniFail, on 03 April 2019 - 09:52 AM, said:

I know where you are going with this Dimento. Even with launching millions of LRMs you can never get even a accidental occasional head shot for 1 point of damage. Not even with dumb fire.

Glad you know where I'm going with this, and it's not absolutely that bad, I've had missiles strike my cockpit area before (not in a long while has that resulted in a death), and that's the worst extreme, now let's make it easy: The intentional aiming at a Fafnir's/Corsair's/Mauler's/KGC's open, red, one touch, side torso.

Do it, INTENTIONALLY, and specify which missile(s) will hit that location.

Show me that...

Obviously you can't, it's up to RNGesus (and HSR, AND, PGI's anti-crit algorithms) to determine if/when a missile has actually registered on a location.

[OmniFail]

Mystere, on 03 April 2019 - 07:23 AM, said:

Please clarify which part of LRMs involves RNGesus?

There is some RNG. Take just one LRM 5 to the testing ground and shoot the Atlas once. Reload do it again. You will see that a few will hit the torso and the rest will randomly hit other parts. It gets really interesting when you start to do the math and see really how much damage actually lands on the torso for the various launcher spreads. Then you can start to theorize on how long it would take the random damage to blow off things like the torso. It will be a really eye opener. Its been this way for a very long time. You will wonder how LRMs actually kill anybody at all in normal combat conditions. And then you really haven't factored in things like AMS, ECM, and the targeted players skill and intelligence.

And yet LRMs have been whined into the ground though the usage of spread, heat, targeting mechanics, cool down, AMS, and ECM.

When any competent player could have told you that the real fix is a buff to player skill and intelligence.

A good example of this was the boating of LRM 5s back in the day. The players whined and whined about something that put only three damage on the torso per launcher and could not do more than 9 at a time without ghost heat. So PGI made "adjustments" to the system so it was no longer effective. When I questioned them about it they just stated "we want players to use larger launchers." This set off the whole go big or go home mentality and the rise of the assault LRM boats.

The reality was that even back then all it took to shut down the LRM 5 rainbow mechs was one unmodified AMS.

But the players couldn't be bothered so PGI stepped in.

Edited by OmniFail, 03 April 2019 - 10:11 AM.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 03 April 2019 - 09:21 AM, said:

Then show me an intentional headshot with LRMs/ATMs...

Y'know, the one where you hit nothing but the cockpit?

Isn't there a "magic force field" (i.e. programming) specifically meant to prevent all missile weapons from hitting the cockpit?

For SSRMs, I know there is zero probability of hitting the cockpit.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 03 April 2019 - 11:14 AM, said:

Isn't there a "magic force field" (i.e. programming) specifically meant to prevent all missile weapons from hitting the cockpit?

For SSRMs, I know there is zero probability of hitting the cockpit.

I "think" there is but it's only active when the crit location is open.

Like I said earlier, I've been had my cockpit damaged by missile fire, but I haven't been "head shot" by missile fire in a LONG time (years)...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 03 April 2019 - 11:28 AM.

[Galenthor Kerensky]

I have managed to get a few headshots in with missiles over the years, but that was completely by fluke... I have done the test regarding the altas in the testing grounds with dozens of mechs, yet never got a headshot even when specifically trying to do so. Omnifail is correct in their statement about lrms usage being whined into the ground, yet of all of the weapons systems out there, lrms, atms, and streaks ( all missile systems ) are the only systems that require a lock on to be able to hit effectively; and said lock on can be broken at any time while the missiles are in flight, either by terrain, ecm, ( have even had it break because the target mech stayed behind team mate of theirs ) or shot down by ams. Lasers and ballistics need no such thing, and their shots aren't affected by any other than terrain and movement. I feel that it would be an interesting test if everything required a lock on before being able to fire it, and then we would see where the truly skilled players are.

[Dimento Graven]

Galenthor Kerensky, on 03 April 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

...
I feel that it would be an interesting test if everything required a lock on before being able to fire it, and then we would see where the truly skilled players are.

I started out only being able to use missile 'mechs, but that was because I had a very limited PC and laptop. Once I upgraded I NEVER looked back to missiles (other than using them when I'd been drinking... a LOT).

That said, as put upon as you feel about LRMs/ATMs, I feel gauss is the weapon system that has been truly, over nerfed.

And being able to effectively use gauss, with its significant limitations and drawbacks requires significantly more skill than any computer guided system.

[mabo]

I think the solution is simple, reverse the missile changes and give every mech the ability to run 4 AMS,

That way it's the players choice as to how seriously they wish to personally address the LRM issue.

Also, for the record, I love my Corsair 7A.

[Thunderfrog]

Love the missile changes PGI!

Now please stop making all the maps nascar centric and encourage battle-lines please.

Thunderfrog, on 03 April 2019 - 03:32 PM, said:

Love the missile changes PGI!

Now please stop making all the maps nascar centric and encourage battle-lines please.

Obvious hyperbole is obvious. I understand that people don't usually nascar the snow maps.

[Khobai]

Dimento Graven, on 03 April 2019 - 01:06 PM, said:

I started out only being able to use missile 'mechs, but that was because I had a very limited PC and laptop. Once I upgraded I NEVER looked back to missiles (other than using them when I'd been drinking... a LOT).

That said, as put upon as you feel about LRMs/ATMs, I feel gauss is the weapon system that has been truly, over nerfed.

And being able to effectively use gauss, with its significant limitations and drawbacks requires significantly more skill than any computer guided system.

How has gauss been overnerfed? Its still one of the best clan weapons. lol.

what significant limitations does gauss have? you have to charge it up? everything else about it is a major advantage.

what a joke. gauss isnt even comparable to what PGI has done to LRMs.

Edited by Khobai, 03 April 2019 - 03:52 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 03 April 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

How has gauss been overnerfed? Its still one of the best clan weapons. lol.

what significant limitations does gauss have? you have to charge it up? everything else about it is a major advantage.

what a joke. gauss isnt even comparable to what PGI has done to LRMs.

Off the top of my head:

1. As you mentioned, charge up cycle with limited firing window, before being forced to recharge again.
2. Very large and fragile, easily crit, and when crit, for IS is a 90% chance of explosion, for Clan 100%.
3. Bizarre ghost heat with PPC.
4. Among the lowest DPS.
5. Among the slowest reload times.
6. You can't chain fire gauss (without macro'ing).
7. You can only fire a maximum of 2 gauss simultaneously, (no other weapon has this limitation, even though you can fire any number of any other weapon simultaneously for alphas nearly twice that of a DUAL HG blast).
8. Extremely subject to the variances of ping, HSR, and PGI's infamous hit registration issues, more so than lasers, LBX's, UAC's, or computer guided weaponry.

[Thunderfrog]

Dimento Graven, on 03 April 2019 - 04:13 PM, said:

Off the top of my head:

1. As you mentioned, charge up cycle with limited firing window, before being forced to recharge again.
2. Very large and fragile, easily crit, and when crit, for IS is a 90% chance of explosion, for Clan 100%.
3. Bizarre ghost heat with PPC.
4. Among the lowest DPS.
5. Among the slowest reload times.
6. You can't chain fire gauss (without macro'ing).
7. You can only fire a maximum of 2 gauss simultaneously, (no other weapon has this limitation, even though you can fire any number of any other weapon simultaneously for alphas nearly twice that of a DUAL HG blast).
8. Extremely subject to the variances of ping, HSR, and PGI's infamous hit registration issues, more so than lasers, LBX's, UAC's, or computer guided weaponry.

Do you really want no charge, no heat, higher constant dps, faster reloading, quad gauss?

And to be fair, of your 8 bullet points, 5 of them are basically the same complaint, that Gauss has low sustained dps.

[FupDup]

Thunderfrog, on 04 April 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

Do you really want no charge, no heat, higher constant dps, faster reloading, quad gauss?

Yes, he actually does.

[Prototelis]

Gauss still one of the best PPFLD weapons in game.

[Dimento Graven]

Thunderfrog, on 04 April 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

Do you really want no charge, no heat, higher constant dps, faster reloading, quad gauss?

First: My point was that the gauss has consistently endured more nerf bat abuse from PGI, more so than missiles.

Yet, I've never once come across anyone who seriously believed that LRMs were too difficult to use and didn't bother to use them, unlike what we constantly run across here on the forums about gauss.

If guass is in such a better state than missiles, please feel free to switch to using them.

Secondly, as to your point (which made me laugh out loud), I'll just point out the following:

1. It's impossible to have quad heavy gauss. Nothing to fear there, there's no crit splitting in this game so the most you'll ever be able to load up at one time is two. With the range limitations and extremely low end DPS, a few RACs, ballistics, or laser vomits at range will effectively halve the potential damage before there's real risk.

2. 4 regular gauss can only be loaded and seriously sported by only a few 'mechs, and even then you're giving up mobility, armor, ammo capacity to do it. Seriously, before the Direwolf, the only 'mech that could carry more than 2 was the Cataphract (which could only carry 3) and you had to sacrifice so much armor, engine size, and ammo to do it, it was limited to maybe 10 full triple shots and an alpha from pretty much ANY OTHER normal load out would cripple it. The 'mechs we have that can do 3 or more gauss now are just walking "broadsides of barns" which, once identified can easily be focused down.

3. Light gauss can be loaded by many 'mechs, 4 or more (though most will still end up sacrificing a lot) and those people that do quad Light Gauss are doing it mostly for the lols (I know I do), watching the enemy targets initially freak out when they start getting hit with rapid gauss impacts. Still, the 'good' players, have learned to identify the difference between light gauss and regular/heavy gauss hits and are realize that they're being hit with 'noise makers' more than anything and adapt.

Lastly, no, actually I don't want the charge cycle removed, and I don't want the charge up limitation removed from all versions of the gauss.

What I'd like is the light gauss to have it's charge up limitation removed (edit: Allow more than two to be charged and fired at one time), and all gauss to be an F'ton less explosive than they are. They should ONLY explode if crit'd while charge, or in the process of being charged, NOT when a passing breeze flits in your open side torso...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 04 April 2019 - 01:38 PM.