63 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 24 March 2019 - 05:19 AM, said:

I don't want to get used to it, tho.
I don't want a team of me (average) and 11 inepts getting stomped, that's not a "gg".

I don't want a team of me (average) and 11 comp players stomping 12:0, that's not a "gg" either.

I only want balanced matches.

And that is another misconception ... 12:0 match doesn't necesserily mean initial team imbalance. If you watch comp teams play you could easily notice that at times one will win 8:0 only to lose 0:8 to the same team 15 mins later. A stampede is a result of many things, including poor/good mech/loadout combinations and poor/good tactical choices that lead to the snowball effect. Two perfectly balanced teams can end up having a 12:0 match easily.

Not saying MM works tho, because it doesn't.

[PhoenixFire55]

Prototelis, on 24 March 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

Basic math, smaller team and one ******* has a larger impact.

We need more players per match.

No. You only need more players per match if your MM is random like it is now, because larger groups of randomly drawn people are naturally more balanced due to LoLN.

[Wil McCullough]

There is nothing wrong with the matchmaker. There is something wrong with the data it uses to match make - psr.

Psr is currently based on individual score and is weighted so that eventually, even mediocre pilots will make it to t1. There are t1 pilots with sub 1.0 wlr and kdr. Psr only stops the absolutely terrible pilots from progressing. I'm t1 and that is absolutely not where i should be. I'm definitely a t2 or lower by a fairer metric. You know that sub 1.0 wlr and kdr t1 pilot? Matchmaker thinks he and proton are equal in skill.

Change psr to wlr. You lose a match, you lose psr. You win a match, your psr goes up. No ifs, no buts. Eventually everyone will end up where they should be based on a system that counts only what is the most important - your actual ability to win matches.

You lose matches but have high individual damage numbers? Go down the ranks. You scout and narc and cause your team to win even though you have <100 damage? Here's a promotion.

No more whining from sandbagging lurmers or laser vomit kill vultures or whatever. Do this and you'll get fair matches.

Here's the problem:

A significant number of players DON'T WANT fair matches. They'll say they do, of course. But they'll drop the game like a live grenade if a fairer match maker is implemented and they see their rank drop harder than illenium's bass. We've already seen this happen with solaris. A fair matchmaker may spell the end of mwo because the tatos will pack their bags and play hbs bt or whatever single player mech game there is on the market that allows them to beat up bots that don't complain.

[PhoenixFire55]

Wil McCullough, on 26 March 2019 - 01:37 AM, said:

Change psr to wlr. You lose a match, you lose psr. You win a match, your psr goes up. No ifs, no buts. Eventually everyone will end up where they should be based on a system that counts only what is the most important - your actual ability to win matches.

We already had that ... Elo MM before it got changed to PSR. It wasn't working either.

[Wil McCullough]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 March 2019 - 01:40 AM, said:

We already had that ... Elo MM before it got changed to PSR. It wasn't working either.

I vaguely remember that "era". A lot of full nascar assault base capping and **** to inflate wlr. Well, that happens when game modes have ****** win conditions that allow players to win without engaging.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 24 March 2019 - 10:31 AM, said:

Then you should start supporting my call for 8v8 matches for QP. By all logic small sized teams can support better MM, especially if my hunch is correct and MM builds one team first and then fill out the second with whatever is left.

El, 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 or any other combination won't work in a small, skill polarized population...... By any definition, that is what is out there.... All statistics rely on some form of "order" and MWO surely does not have that. What we do have are vets and new players that the vets drive away.......never populating the middle of the game. The average player is long gone and they took their entire teams with them ! We still talk about MWO and there is Zero chance they are coming back to MWO or MW5.

That is the reality: polarization. Nothing short of a miracle can save this game. That's really sad cause I like the game, I just don't like what is has become.............even, if I play events only. I started the current event and it just "has an odd vibe" about it......something like a sour taste that ruins the memory of what was.......even with the faults of that time: pre-skill tree because, MWO had problems then too..........and, a really good population everyone "assumed" would put up with what was to come.....

A really bad assumption. 8x8 will fail because the population would not have changed.... There really is no solution other than population; and, PGI salted the earth post skill tree and Faction Play toxicity nailed the lid closed..... Sorry....

[PhoenixFire55]

Asym, on 26 March 2019 - 03:33 AM, said:

El, 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 or any other combination won't work in a small, skill polarized population...... By any definition, that is what is out there.... All statistics rely on some form of "order" and MWO surely does not have that. What we do have are vets and new players that the vets drive away.......never populating the middle of the game. The average player is long gone and they took their entire teams with them ! We still talk about MWO and there is Zero chance they are coming back to MWO or MW5.

There is no "polarization" in terms of skill as displayed by stats that show a perfecly normal distribution across the average match scores for example. There is a significant "polarization" in terms of PSR, which is a result of it being biased towards its increase. Other "polarization" like, for example, time a person playes this game is totally irrelevant.

"Vets" driving away new players is laughable. This game has a steep learning curve, that alone eventually drives 90% of people away. While "vets" and organized units are what actually contributes towards at least some retain values by providing new players with something other than endless and meaningless grind of c-bills/skill points/MCs from events. Toxicity is present equally among vets and new players alike, but from experience for each bittervet like myself, there are two-three vets who do all they can in order to help new players both on the forum and in-game.

Do not expect games that are Minimally Viable Products^TM to begin with, let alone being on life support like MWO right now, to have any influx of new players or any significant player retention apart from die-hard fans of the franchise. This have nothing to do with "polarization" or "vets". It is just a bad game, and nobody wants to play a bad game.

[warner2]

According to the Jarl's list the OP has a win / loss ratio consistently of around 1.0 over the months so... HeavyGun you aren't losing match after match you are breaking even.

[Racerxintegra2k]

If they cant balance weapons which are numbers ... what makes you think they'll ever be able to balance something as complicated as potatoes.

[El Bandito]

Asym, on 26 March 2019 - 03:33 AM, said:

El, 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 or any other combination won't work in a small, skill polarized population......

Never said it will work. I only said it will work better than 12v12. That's the difference.

[Bud Crue]

Racerxintegra2k, on 26 March 2019 - 07:46 AM, said:

If they cant balance weapons which are numbers ... what makes you think they'll ever be able to balance something as complicated as potatoes.

There is a joke comparing the complexity of humans to potatoes in there somewhere.

[Asym]

El Bandito, on 26 March 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

Never said it will work. I only said it will work better than 12v12. That's the difference.

OK, I'll bite, we have good conversations usually: how? Take me as an example. I am a tier 2 barely average, if not below average player.... How would 8x8 benefit any team that has a player with such a record? 8x8 still needs 8 players and PSR's are a joke and MWO doesn't even come anywhere near close to calculating effectiveness or skill.........how? And, there are more players like me than you ! I'd love to hear your theory.

If I'd play more than one day or so a month, I'd been a tier 1 a long time ago..... And yet, just a below average player who plays for fun.....when there is some to be found.

[Asym]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 March 2019 - 04:54 AM, said:

There is no "polarization" in terms of skill as displayed by stats that show a perfecly normal distribution across the average match scores for example. There is a significant "polarization" in terms of PSR, which is a result of it being biased towards its increase. Other "polarization" like, for example, time a person playes this game is totally irrelevant.

"Vets" driving away new players is laughable. This game has a steep learning curve, that alone eventually drives 90% of people away. While "vets" and organized units are what actually contributes towards at least some retain values by providing new players with something other than endless and meaningless grind of c-bills/skill points/MCs from events. Toxicity is present equally among vets and new players alike, but from experience for each bittervet like myself, there are two-three vets who do all they can in order to help new players both on the forum and in-game.

Do not expect games that are Minimally Viable Products^TM to begin with, let alone being on life support like MWO right now, to have any influx of new players or any significant player retention apart from die-hard fans of the franchise. This have nothing to do with "polarization" or "vets". It is just a bad game, and nobody wants to play a bad game.

Well said ! But, toxicity and skill disparity (which includes players like myself that play for the fun of it versus I'd die before I lose nonsense) have and continue to drive new players off ! Heck, it drove entire teams to leave the game. And that, is a fact.... Yes, the curve it huge and make zero sense. Yes, the grind is worse than terrible. Yes, we're down to die-hards whom love this IP and would play if there were 100 players left....

Why? Root cause = poor game development. The game catered to the elite and lost the entire middle of the game.... e-Sports was a terrible idea that ruined the entire game and now, it's a single player future game that is all that is keeping MWO afloat and if that fails, like Solaris did, well.........you reap what you sow....

You aren't wrong either and thanks for being civil.

[El Bandito]

Asym, on 27 March 2019 - 12:12 PM, said:

OK, I'll bite, we have good conversations usually: how? Take me as an example. I am a tier 2 barely average, if not below average player.... How would 8x8 benefit any team that has a player with such a record? 8x8 still needs 8 players and PSR's are a joke and MWO doesn't even come anywhere near close to calculating effectiveness or skill.........how? And, there are more players like me than you ! I'd love to hear your theory.

If I'd play more than one day or so a month, I'd been a tier 1 a long time ago..... And yet, just a below average player who plays for fun.....when there is some to be found.

I have written about the superiority of 8v8 over 12v12 for current MWO several times in the past and had lengthy debates with other forumers. Go and look for them cause I am sure as heck not gonna write the same thing again.

[MischiefSC]

ObeyTheLion, on 24 March 2019 - 12:57 AM, said:

Does this justificate my 16x lose streak from yesterday?

Your month to date stats are better than your average stats on Jarls list.

So, in short, yes.

More to the point, flip a perfectly balanced coin 1024 times at one point along the process you'll get heads 10 times in a row. However on flip 1024 you'll have gotten heads a total of 512 times and tails 512 times, +/- 2.

That's how averages works.

Your brain, being a lying, manipulative, unreliable **** like every other human brain, tries to tell you otherwise. It twists your memories to confirm your biases, it remembers bad things more than good things and it changes your actual memories every single time you remember something.

This is why W/L is actually the best and most accurate tool for measuring a players contribution to their team winning but we can't really use that because it upsets everyone - because that's not how it *feels*. Winning *feels* like it's arbitrary. However it absolutely isn't, not in the averages over time. The actual number of players with a significantly inflated w/l due to group queue play is a literal fraction of 1%. However it's a good excuse for why you can't trust W/L.

In reality... you can. You absolutely can, because it's the indication of how likely you are to win a match and that ratio is impacted by how you play taken as an average over time.

Ah well.

[thievingmagpi]

Asym, on 27 March 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Why? Root cause = poor game development. The game catered to the elite and lost the entire middle of the game.... e-Sports was a terrible idea that ruined the entire game and now, it's a single player future game that is all that is keeping MWO afloat and if that fails, like Solaris did, well.........you reap what you sow....

You aren't wrong either and thanks for being civil.

No where did this game "cater to the elite".

If you think that's the case you've clearly never watched any MWOWC games. Ramshackle events with little top-down development. You'll find things like MRBC (and now MOR8) were generally better designed, better implemented, and better run

Comp play/e-sports was a brief fantasy, its skeleton dumped on MWO and then the next bright idea toyed with. If they "catered the the elite" the game wouldn't be comatose.

[General Solo]

Racerxintegra2k, on 26 March 2019 - 07:46 AM, said:

If they cant balance weapons which are numbers ... what makes you think they'll ever be able to balance something as complicated as potatoes.

Potatoes is numbers too.

I will explain slowly..........................its complicated.

1) six ways to increase PSR

and

Two ways to decrease PSR.

Is bad.

Pilot getting Zero damage on a win with One point Match score for assist and not dropping PSR is bad.

That what is happening now which is bad.

(A picture for less complicatedness)

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 27 March 2019 - 07:53 PM.

[Lykaon]

Asym, on 27 March 2019 - 12:25 PM, said:

Why? Root cause = poor game development. The game catered to the elite and lost the entire middle of the game.... e-Sports was a terrible idea that ruined the entire game and now, it's a single player future game that is all that is keeping MWO afloat and if that fails, like Solaris did, well.........you reap what you sow....

There were several points where there were choices made by PGI (and at the time partners IGP) that were essentially either support organized players,player units and support grouping or support casual solo players who do not group.

They more often than not backed the solo casual players over organized play in groups by player units.

The actual history of event in MWo does not support your claim. However it was poor game development that contributed to the slow bleed of players leaving the game.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Bud Crue, on 26 March 2019 - 07:54 AM, said:

There is a joke comparing the complexity of humans to potatoes in there somewhere.

Does it have something to do with Ray "The Banana-Man" Comfort?

[Wolfos31]

I'm with OZHomer on this. I don't like that PSR keeps rising even for middling players.

I'm a middling player, I don't have any shame in it. I've always been **** at multiplayer games and this is the only one I play because I love the IP so much and I find MWO's gameplay genuinely fun. I do not want to be playing with tier 1 try hards because I'll lose over and over again. And losing generally isn't fun unless you personally did well even if your team lost.

Think about it, this is a two side game, always. Whether Solaris, FP, or QP there is "you" and "the other". If you are placed with people of equal skill your W/L ratio should be about 1:1. If your W/L is positive you are playing with people below your level, if it's negative you're playing with people above your level.

Ultimately, the upward pushing of the PSR ruins things for all skill levels. People like me eventually get into matches with better players and our only hope of a win is finding the other PUGs on the other team who got pushed up the PSR ladder unfairly too. Good players are teamed with middling players like me and have to carry harder. Everyone is unhappy.

If they made the PSR punish you as strictly as it rewards you it'd be a more accurate measure of skill. Then even with low population if the teams are developed with equal numbers of tier 1, 2, 3, etc players on each side the matches should be a more even affair.

That's my .02.

Edited by Wolfos31, 28 March 2019 - 05:52 AM.