48 replies to this topic

[Yondu Udonta]

MiZia, on 01 April 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

ill only say ... stk 5s 10% range, dual ams (yes it affects it too).
I laughed at the clanners while attacking Boreal (well wasnt the only ams mech).
4 Erlarge 894 m optimal and a nice umbrella.

edit wrong optimal

should i get one for ******* boreal attack to deal with clan lurm *******?

[K O Z A K]

Yondu Udonta, on 01 April 2019 - 09:19 PM, said:

should i get one for ******* boreal attack to deal with clan lurm *******?

it's not the worst idea

[vonJerg]

One? Hell, you need at least two of those STK-5S. But, if you ask Jay_Z_, you need at least a dozen.
2 x with erLL,
2 x with MRMs and MLs,
2 x with LPLs and erMLs,
2 x with LRMs and backup lasers,
2 x with 4 SRM launchers and lasers,
.
.
and the list goes on an on.......

[MischiefSC]

justcallme A S H, on 31 March 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

And ye the proliferation of cECM on many viable chassis... Means nothing of course.

Nor does the heat or tonnage efficiencies of anything cLRM.


I don't get where all the constant one-sided arguments come from around this place sometimes.

Yeah. Simple fact is you can take 2x the total tubes on a Clan mech, not to mention the proliferation of Clan mechs that have the right combo of mobility and missile hardpoints to really take advantage of it.

Supernova is still the best LRM assault, though the Awesome is probably a close second. in FW the ability of Clans to take 6+ solid ECM mechs on any of the maps where LRMs are not a truly terrible idea is also a thing.

The proliferation of IS AMS is the only thing that even half-way balances this. It's still easier and better to set up for long range both offense and defense with Clan mechs than IS.

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 01 April 2019 - 09:33 PM, said:

it's not the worst idea

The one with ECM is better for that. Have a couple Corsairs with ERLLs and UAC2s and 4 AMS - AMS works best when it's tight bundles. We did a bunch of testing, having 3 mechs with 4 AMS and several ECM ERLL Stalkers was way more effective than just 2xAMS on everything. It's the NARC that gets you on any map where LRMs are a concern. So mostly ECM, a couple or three of those Corsairs and then 2 or 3 Grinners to go murder the Clan NARCers. After the NARCs are dead the Grinners can do good work against Clan ECM/ERLL/LRM assaults.

4 AMS on one mech kills more missiles than 2 AMS on 2 mechs and 4+ ECM mechs makes NARCs almost irrelevant.

[K O Z A K]

MischiefSC, on 05 April 2019 - 06:08 AM, said:

Yeah. Simple fact is you can take 2x the total tubes on a Clan mech, not to mention the proliferation of Clan mechs that have the right combo of mobility and missile hardpoints to really take advantage of it.

Supernova is still the best LRM assault, though the Awesome is probably a close second. in FW the ability of Clans to take 6+ solid ECM mechs on any of the maps where LRMs are not a truly terrible idea is also a thing.

The proliferation of IS AMS is the only thing that even half-way balances this. It's still easier and better to set up for long range both offense and defense with Clan mechs than IS.

It isnt, not for extreme range. Ecm is even, ams is better for IS, range is about even, IS gets better hardpoints, IS gets more armour, clan gets better cooling, clan gets better speed, IS gets better agility, IS has shorter burn duration

Overall I guess clans reposition on the map faster, but IS are better at actual poking/fighting

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 05 April 2019 - 06:24 AM, said:

It isnt, not for extreme range. Ecm is even, ams is better for IS, range is about even, IS gets better hardpoints, IS gets more armour, clan gets better cooling, clan gets better speed, IS gets better agility, IS has shorter burn duration

Overall I guess clans reposition on the map faster, but IS are better at actual poking/fighting

ECM isn't even though. For a ranged poke deck Clans have way more good ECM options and proliferation at lower tonnage, letting you bring a better overall deck. If both sides are just range trading at extreme range, maybe? We're talking about countering LRMs though and for that ECM > AMS for a ranged deck and an expectation of >500 like like first wave or two on Boreal and Caustic and all 4 waves on Alpine and Polar.

The argument was over the value of AMS as a counter to LRMs vs ECM. If you're setting a deck to counter LRMs on, say, attacking Boreal or any real fight on Alpine and Polar vs a team that's LRM heavy you've got a way better option set in Clans than IS. If you're setting up against range trade and it's really your thing and you can leverage shorter IS burn time... well, you'll still have more options in Clans. Better push deck options, LRMs are a viable choice on some maps and you've got ECM for all of it. IS has some real limited options on those maps.

At no point are you saying 'gosh, if only Clans had more AMS I'd have more options vs IS LRM decks' when building a Clan range deck for any map.

[K O Z A K]

Outside of hellbringer and stalker what ecm mechs do you see frequently used for range trade? Cause generally those are the only 2 chassis I see wave 1/2 that carry erll and ecm. I just really don't understand where the myth that clans are better at ecm comes from in todays FP

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 05 April 2019 - 06:57 AM, said:

Outside of hellbringer and stalker what ecm mechs do you see frequently used for range trade? Cause generally those are the only 2 chassis I see wave 1/2 that carry erll and ecm. I just really don't understand where the myth that clans are better at ecm comes from in todays FP

HBR is 65 tons which is the FW sweet spot and a strong performer at long and mid range. The Stalker is slow and more or less take 4 ERLLs on an 85 ton mech, less useful firepower than the BLR. You can take more HBRs than Stalkers.

The difference is that IS generally has some (but not a lot) of ECM on wave 1, maybe some on wave 2. Clans will have several ECM mechs every wave. That's where the impression comes from.

[Charles Sennet]

MischiefSC, on 05 April 2019 - 08:07 AM, said:

HBR is 65 tons which is the FW sweet spot and a strong performer at long and mid range. The Stalker is slow and more or less take 4 ERLLs on an 85 ton mech, less useful firepower than the BLR. You can take more HBRs than Stalkers.

The difference is that IS generally has some (but not a lot) of ECM on wave 1, maybe some on wave 2. Clans will have several ECM mechs every wave. That's where the impression comes from.

In a pure range fight the HBR not an optimal choice to face IS range assaults such as the BLR the STK. This is because most long range matches (perhaps outside of Boreal) don't typically go to full 48 kills and taking down a BLR and STK is much, much harder than to kill an HBR which has no where near the armor, worse hard point locations, lower alpha without ghost heat, and must expose longer to fit in the Clan ERLL duration. Assuming relatively equal skill, an HBR will lose every time versus a BLR and STK and by the time Clanners kill 2 waves of IS assaults, the match has often ended in IS's favor. This is why I have moved my unit away from HBR's and into assaults such as quad ERPPC Supernovas and Warhawks--neither of which has ECM and neither of which can mount 2 AMS unlike both the BLR and STK.

The HBR superiority in long range fights (possibly even when considering the Virago) is a myth and the complete lack of 2+ AMS on Clan assaults (0 to IS's 10) is an imbalance between the sides.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 05 April 2019 - 12:06 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

The HBR isn't optimal? What? It's so incredibly strong it's a staple of Comp play right now for ranged control due to the tonnage it saves.

The HBR-VI and SMN both out range the BLR/STK by a good 50-90m Optimal, can be more depending. That's not a myth, it's a cold hard fact and you can look it up in game any time. You can also full alpha 4cERL and safely eat the ghost heat so the duration comment makes no sense. The HBR does not lose every time.

It just sounds like your not playing the mechs correctly or understanding them IMO.

[MiZia]

justcallme A S H, on 05 April 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

The HBR isn't optimal? What? It's so incredibly strong it's a staple of Comp play right now for ranged control due to the tonnage it saves.

The HBR-VI and SMN both out range the BLR/STK by a good 50-90m Optimal, can be more depending. That's not a myth, it's a cold hard fact and you can look it up in game any time. You can also full alpha 4cERL and safely eat the ghost heat so the duration comment makes no sense. The HBR does not lose every time.

It just sounds like your not playing the mechs correctly or understanding them IMO.

Dude he is speaking of std version of hbr NOT Hero, not everyone can afford it and it is compared with cbill mechs like blr and stk

Edited by MiZia, 05 April 2019 - 12:56 PM.

[Grus]

kamichiwa343, on 01 April 2019 - 05:22 AM, said:

The man just wants an IS nova, I got no problem with that

The problem is the IS nova would be a better clan nova...

justcallme A S H, on 05 April 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

The HBR isn't optimal? What? It's so incredibly strong it's a staple of Comp play right now for ranged control due to the tonnage it saves.

The HBR-VI and SMN both out range the BLR/STK by a good 50-90m Optimal, can be more depending. That's not a myth, it's a cold hard fact and you can look it up in game any time. You can also full alpha 4cERL and safely eat the ghost heat so the duration comment makes no sense. The HBR does not lose every time.

It just sounds like your not playing the mechs correctly or understanding them IMO.

Semi big TC, lots of DHS (though wasn't there a SHS build floating around for the capacity?)

#gordenramsydone

[Charles Sennet]

MiZia, on 05 April 2019 - 12:48 PM, said:

Dude he is speaking of std version of hbr NOT Hero, not everyone can afford it and it is compared with cbill mechs like blr and stk

Right. The HBR is a great 65-tonner but in FP as a sniper facing BLR's and STK's, its inferior. Clanners who take HBR's to FP Alpine, for instance, will lose to the IS assault snipers given equal skill. Slight range advantage does not make up for:

-Lower durability
-Lower alpha
-Inferior mounts
-Having to expose more due to laser duration

That's just too much for the HBR to overcome vs BLR's and STK's (which is why I'm saying its overrated in FP as a sniper).

I believe Clanners need to bring their own sniping assaults to go toe-to-toe with IS. In this area (and this is really the point on the OP) Clans have zero assault mechs with 2+ AMS while IS has 10 and one in particular, the STK-5S that has double-AMS, high mounts, and 10% range quirk.

Moreover...

ECM and AMS are distinct systems with their own benefits and really deserve their own balance discussions. The OP was about AMS, not ECM, which probably deserves its own post and debate. Regarding AMS balance, it is clear that Clans are far behind IS in options especially in the heavy and assault classes. That is the main point I am making and I wanted PGI and the community to be aware of it.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 05 April 2019 - 03:45 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

MiZia, on 05 April 2019 - 12:48 PM, said:

Dude he is speaking of std version of hbr NOT Hero, not everyone can afford it and it is compared with cbill mechs like blr and stk

So what? If you know how to build it, you can still out play a BLR. ESP with the speed and mobility differences.

The SMN/ERPPC is still better again in all aspects. Requires you to aim however.


Anyway the HBR deck is fine. People dunno how to play it. That's it.

Clan is fine. There is no "disparity" at all. Its balance, learn to balance.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 April 2019 - 03:05 AM.

[Hellbringer]

dont talk about "speed" as something of any importance for FP. Who cares if you stroll along at 45kph vs 64kph. I dont think ive ever encountered a single situation where faster mechs have made or break the game.

Extra armor is useful like 100% of the time, shorter burn times is useful 100% of the time, same with better agility.

The only thing clan has going for it right now is the extra 10% range and better cooling (and often its wayy less than that due to IS quirks). Like Charles said, battlemaster, stalker's all have better high mounts. The only clan assault that can seriously outrange IS is BAS-A with a TC7 but the mounts are on its hands and terrible. Hellbringers, even the virago's, cannot stand toe to toe with IS sniping unless you can stay at 1800+ range and scratch IS mechs for 1 damage per pewww peww. If they close in, you got like 60% of their health and you burn longer.

Edited by Hellbringer, 06 April 2019 - 07:25 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Hellbringer, on 06 April 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

dont talk about "speed" as something of any importance for FP.

LOL. Wrong. Also speed and acceleration (ie, mobilty) come into play when ridge peaking. Slower you are, guess what? Slower your peak.

Hellbringer, on 06 April 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

The only clan assault that can seriously outrange IS is BAS-A with a TC7 but the mounts are on its hands and terrible. Hellbringers, even the virago's, cannot stand toe to toe with IS sniping unless you can stay at 1800+ range and scratch IS mechs for 1 damage per pewww peww. If they close in, you got like 60% of their health and you burn longer.

Wrong again. There are a number of Clan Assaults that can be built to match and/or out range BLR-1G. They need to be played differently, so there is some inherent skill required there.

I would suggest you go look at the mechlab.

[Hobbles v]

Hellbringer, on 06 April 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

dont talk about "speed" as something of any importance for FP. Who cares if you stroll along at 45kph vs 64kph. I dont think ive ever encountered a single situation where faster mechs have made or break the game.

Extra armor is useful like 100% of the time, shorter burn times is useful 100% of the time, same with better agility.

The only thing clan has going for it right now is the extra 10% range and better cooling (and often its wayy less than that due to IS quirks). Like Charles said, battlemaster, stalker's all have better high mounts. The only clan assault that can seriously outrange IS is BAS-A with a TC7 but the mounts are on its hands and terrible. Hellbringers, even the virago's, cannot stand toe to toe with IS sniping unless you can stay at 1800+ range and scratch IS mechs for 1 damage per pewww peww. If they close in, you got like 60% of their health and you burn longer.

Mobility is armour. Especially versus higher ping players. 100 ping is 1/10th of a second. A still target to a 100 ping player is exactly where they see them. But a mobile Mech is one tenth of a second ahead of where a player with a hundred ping is seeing them. For an atlas that is a large and slow with big hitboxes it doesn't make a difference, but for a small Nimble Mech and they can move an entire body difference in that time so what looks like a c t shot can really just be a glancing hit on an arm.

Ever wonder why commandos, assassins and linebackers are a pain to kill? Just by virtue of thier speed and agility they spread damage more easily of even dodge large portions of laser burn time on them by simply moving

Greater Mobility on average is exactly a reason why most decent Faction play teams hate to see that pug king crab on their team. Because they know they are an absolute deadweight that will just get shot and accomplish very little.

Edited by Hobbles v, 08 April 2019 - 05:20 AM.

[Natural Predator]

My clan kdr is way higher than my is kdr. I play an *** ton of FW and now am doing comp against better pilots. If your sucking at clan it’s your not doing it right.

Edited by Ragnar Baron Leiningen, 15 April 2019 - 05:52 AM.

[Ghost Paladin117]

Charles Sennet, on 01 April 2019 - 08:16 AM, said:

Except... not only does AMS mitigate indirect missile damage but, with recent buffs, it can mitigate non-lock-on missile damage as well (that is obviously not countered or mitigated by ECM). I'm sure you've seen the chart on this. AMS is absolutely a system that is open to balance discussions on its own merit, and when it comes to availability in FP, the numbers are profoundly in favor of one side.

You bring up the proliferation of cECM... Clans have 12 chassis that can bring ECM while IS has 23. I grant you the omnipod system helps Clans fit ECM into the chassis but ECM availability seems hardly lopsided in Clans favor. Still, this might deserve a separate look just like AMS.

No I actually would love to talk about a clan 100 tonner being an able to stand up to an Anni. That would be great... someday.... in the future... maybe?

Any discussion of cECM should also incorporate a discussion of IS Stealth which Clans don't have access to.

One of the lesser talked about areas of balance between the two sides is the 'disparity of choice' that exists. For instance IS now has 5 100-tonners (including newly introduced mechs) while Clans are still stuck at only 2 and have been for a long time plus neither of these can stand up to an Anni (but that is a different topic).

If we're going to talk balance pass (which in the past has been code for Clan nerfs) then I think its entirely appropriate to include the choice disparity of the two sides (such as AMS) in that discussion.