36 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

Its pretty simple
1) Change the C-AC name from C-AC to C-LBX-S (S für Slug)
2) Fire a single projectile instead of the Ultra ACs many slugs.
That way we kinda have the LB-X with Slug and Cluster ammo even if it is split into two guns and we have 3 fireing modes like the IS. Slug, Cluster and Burst.

It would lorefriendly and add flavor to the gameplay. Also it would be a pretty simple change.
Also I don't see any reason for the C-AC to exist. If I want burst fire I take the UAC10 it has burst but with the bonus of the ultra if I want to. I can still fire it single shot and handle it like an C-AC.
Not only that the C-AC is even bigger. So why have it at all when its just a worst version of another gun?

Edited by Nesutizale, 31 March 2019 - 04:14 AM.

[Lykaon]

The funny thing is I frequently wish we had the I.S. version.

A burst fire AC10 for one ton and one crit less than the standard AC10 actually has it's place on some builds starved for crits or tonnage, not a problem clan tech generally leaves a mech build suffering from.( shortages of either.)

[FupDup]

The single-slug CAC would have to have its cooldown, heat, and/or velocity heavily nerfed because otherwise it would be purely superior to the corresponding IS AC in all situations (excluding the CAC/2 which is already single shot and triple the slot size of the IS AC/2). It would not be a worthy exchange to make. I would much rather improve other attributes like velocity to make up for their issues rather than replacing their issues with something else.

And besides balance it makes the factions feel more similar instead of more different. I think we need more asymmetrical balancing like how Clan ballistics are currently handled. For example I hate how Clan SRMs and MGs are treated as just smaller and crappier than the IS versions rather than having different mechanics/strengths/weaknesses.

Edited by FupDup, 31 March 2019 - 05:34 AM.

[LordNothing]

i dont really consider a burst firing autocannons to be a drawback. they add much needed flavor to the game.

i consider z-spread a myth, you just have to follow through as if it was a laser. they also have advantages. like fighting lights. they allow for you to correct your aim and land more shots. its better than a single shot which either connects or doesnt.

i kind of wish the game had weapon variants with minor trade offs like shot count, fire rate, and damage per slug (though keeping dps constant). i want my pontiac.

[Nesutizale]

Balance is a bit of a problem but except light mechs as targets, the spread is quite low. Most shots still hit the same spot as the bullets themself are so close fired after each other. So haveing one slug, cluster and burst would bring some diversity.

As for general diversity. I think PGI is kinda in a bad spot. IS tech is the basis for all weapons. Clans improved them in weight and size, then IS basicly copied the clan versions. Thats why, except for some more exotic things like MRM or ATM most weapons are pretty much the same.

IS later developed many different ammonitions for its weapons, what could bring diversity into the game but we all know how well different ammo works....LBX, ATM....
Also I consider ATMs a pretty close interpretation.

Still adding more...character to weapons for factions could be insteresting. I think I read that they want to try that with MW5M in that different manufactures have different attributes. Its the question how they will implement that. Is it only numbers that are different or will weapons behave differently?

An a complety different note with what LordNothing said of haveing differances in "shot counts". I just had the image of an AC20 in my head that actualy fires 20 shots in a row. Rediculuse facetime but man what a show that would be. Like a RAC with a fixed number of shells instead of the jamming.
I mean it could be backed up by lore even as some sources discribe the ACs as bigger Machineguns instead of the Tankguns we have with IS Autocannons.

Edited by Nesutizale, 31 March 2019 - 06:25 AM.

[Rollup]

The C-AC10(2 heat/shot) is almost half the heat as the equivalent C-UAC10(3.5 heat/shot), which allows breaching the HSL with very little penalty.
This allows a quad C-ac10 setup(very under-rated), to exist.
XL400 and quad CAC-10 on KDK-3 for example.

p.s. I think the C-AC10 is the most heat efficient AC???

Edited by Rollup, 31 March 2019 - 06:59 AM.

[panzer1b]

im all for it, since all the clam ACs with the exception of the AC2 and AC10 are worthless. The AC2 has a niche on snipy assaults like the x8 cannon direcow, and the AC10 has the unique trait of being the ONLY autocannon in the game that is truly heat efficient and is useful for near heat-free DPS. Ofc even those 2 are rarely if ever used at high levels of play as the UAC10 is pretty much a flat upgrade over AC10 even if you consider the heat issue, and AC2s are super niche and really dont truly stand up to ERLL at extreme range and at mid-long there are better choices.

Im all for making them single shot with the obvious changes on perhaps decreasing velocity and increasing heat poer shot to make them have some downsides over IS versions (lets face it, if we just give them 1 slug and do nothing else then clam gets a 100% superior version of what IS gets). Still, at least something like 1 less pellet then they do now would at least help them be less useless (so cAC5 is 1 shot, cAC10 is 2, cAC20 is 3 just like IS UACs are now).

[Nesutizale]

And now imagne that there would be a falloff to autocannons with the smaller calibers haveing next to none. That could mix things up.

[HammerMaster]

You do realize cluster can be multi shot?
Ever see mw3 lbx?
Go look.

Edited by HammerMaster, 31 March 2019 - 10:46 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Cluster ammo by its definition is a shotgun like way of shooting your ACs. PGI has done its homework in that regard.
From just watching some footage I found of MW3...the LBX is a singlefire weapon. The sound it plays on the other hand sometimes plays a single shot sound and sometimes a multishoot it seams. Still there was allways only one projectile.

[HammerMaster]

Nesutizale, on 31 March 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

Cluster ammo by its definition is a shotgun like way of shooting your ACs. PGI has done its homework in that regard.
From just watching some footage I found of MW3...the LBX is a singlefire weapon. The sound it plays on the other hand sometimes plays a single shot sound and sometimes a multishoot it seams. Still there was allways only one projectile.

No.
Look again.
Also.
Cluster ammunition is defined by it's effect after fired.
Which an autocannon usually fires a stream of shells.
Each of these shells can be cluster.

Edited by HammerMaster, 31 March 2019 - 11:24 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Well then I am happy that PGI made at least that right

Edited by Nesutizale, 31 March 2019 - 11:34 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Nesutizale, on 31 March 2019 - 11:23 AM, said:

Well then I am happy that PGI made at least that right.

Ha.
No they didn't.

[Nesutizale]

Looking back at the last rulebook I have autocannons are discribed as following:
"rapid-fi ring, auto-loading, heavy ballistic weaponry—gigantic machine guns, in other words."

That would mean that the Rotary might be the closest thing to the lore that we have. All other guns would have a similar firing pattern BUT will only shoot a fixed amount of shells instead of firing until overheating or would overheat much faster.

LBX Cluster ammo is more discribed as a HE shell that scatters on impact.
In that regard I am wrong and Hammer is right.

Question is, would it still be an interesting gameplay if all autocannons have the same firing pattern, just with different amounts of shells beeing shot?

[HammerMaster]

Nesutizale, on 31 March 2019 - 11:43 AM, said:

Looking back at the last rulebook I have autocannons are discribed as following:
"rapid-fi ring, auto-loading, heavy ballistic weaponry—gigantic machine guns, in other words."

That would mean that the Rotary might be the closest thing to the lore that we have. All other guns would have a similar firing pattern BUT will only shoot a fixed amount of shells instead of firing until overheating or would overheat much faster.

LBX Cluster ammo is more discribed as a HE shell that scatters on impact.
In that regard I am wrong and Hammer is right.

Question is, would it still be an interesting gameplay if all autocannons have the same firing pattern, just with different amounts of shells beeing shot?

Our guy Konniving has a lot to say about that subject.

[Nesutizale]

Who?

[HammerMaster]

Nesutizale, on 31 March 2019 - 01:20 PM, said:

Who?

Long time mwo community member. Lore hound and welcoming committee.
Sure hes lurking around somewhere.

[The6thMessenger]

The single-shot slug could at least have CERPPC Style splash-damage to compensate so you're not really putting in that much damage front-loaded.

HammerMaster, on 31 March 2019 - 12:04 PM, said:

Our guy Konniving has a lot to say about that subject.

Machine-guns are actually burst-fired by discipline to conserve ammunition.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 31 March 2019 - 03:11 PM.

[Ilfi]

Vanilla Clan ACs are a joke and need to be reevaluated. As things are now, if you aren't using UACs, LB20s or the very occasional LB2 Ultraviolet, you are gimping your build -- something that doesn't apply to the Inner Sphere tech base. I understand that they are a vestige of the initial BattleTech lore, but when you have weapons performing worse than Light PPCs and Light Gauss Rifles, something has to give.

[FupDup]

Ilfi, on 31 March 2019 - 04:07 PM, said:

Vanilla Clan ACs are a joke and need to be reevaluated. As things are now, if you aren't using UACs, LB20s or the very occasional LB2 Ultraviolet, you are gimping your build -- something that doesn't apply to the Inner Sphere tech base. I understand that they are a vestige of the initial BattleTech lore, but when you have weapons performing worse than Light PPCs and Light Gauss Rifles, something has to give.

The CAC/10 is pretty nice.

I'd also argue that vanilla IS ACs are a bit overrated for the most part.