61 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 04 April 2019 - 12:51 AM, said:

It's important, with context.

If you're just having fun, then don't bother.
If you want to better yourself, it's telling you whether you are doing something wrong or right.

If you want to engage in discussions about balance, it's quite important, because it's a look at the current overall balance.

Yeah, but see, that's exactly why I think it's not a good thing to track.. because people want to better themselves, and track balance - but kills are soooo situational, and depend on so many factors that tracking just KDR is not a very good show of skill..

They can be padded by playing with an organised group.

Kills can be achieved with doing as little as 4 damage, after saaay, a LRM boat did most of the work.

Deaths can be achieved by your team mate putting a gauss slug into your back.

You can score multiple kills in an assault and zero kills in a light, or vice versa...

You can do multiple kills with a LRM boat and zero with a Gauss sniper, or vice versa..

As I said.. it's just not a very good measure of individual, or even overall skill..

[PhoenixFire55]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 01:00 AM, said:

They can be padded by playing with an organised group.

I'll let you in on a secret ... Good players actually play solo to pad stats, because in an "organized group" there are other good players who will do kills and damage and won't let you "pad" stats.

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 01:00 AM, said:

Kills can be achieved with doing as little as 4 damage, after saaay, a LRM boat did most of the work.

Pumping damage into arms, legs and side torsoes of a cherry red CT mech isn't "work".

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 01:00 AM, said:

As I said.. it's just not a very good measure of individual, or even overall skill..

To know what is good measure of skill one has to have said skill, which you clearly don't.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 04 April 2019 - 01:18 AM.

[Kroete]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 01:00 AM, said:

They can be padded by playing with an organised group.

Until pug and group stats are divided and we can see kmdd the stats we have are nearly meaningless.

PhoenixFire55, on 04 April 2019 - 01:18 AM, said:

Pumping damage into arms, legs and side torsoes of a cherry red CT mech isn't "work".

Sweeping the victim with a laser neither ...

You cant denie that the one how removed the armor and 96% of the centerstructur did more work then the one that sweeped his lasers only once and killed it.
That he did also lots of damage to legs, sidetorsos and arms dont matter, he still opened the center and removed 96% of the structur.

And why i have often less then 40% of my mech left,
if all the pinpointweapons do only meaningfull damage,
shouldnt i get cored after a few hits?

Edited by Kroete, 04 April 2019 - 01:50 AM.

[Gagis]

KMDD/Match is best

[Khobai]

Nesutizale, on 03 April 2019 - 11:49 PM, said:

We allready have kill most damage dealt so somehow its allready counted who does the most damage for a mech. It should be possible to use that data to get the numbers you discribe.

KMDD isnt tracked as a stat though.

so no its not really counted.

again KDR and KPM are both stupid stats because of kill stealing.

for any kindve kill ratio stat to actually mean something the game needs to either track KMDD or award percentile kills.

Because it wouldnt require changing too much, KMDD per match would probably work the best.

Edited by Khobai, 04 April 2019 - 01:46 AM.

[Maddermax]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 April 2019 - 01:18 AM, said:

I'll let you in on a secret ... Good players actually play solo to pad stats, because in an "organized group" there are other good players who will do kills and damage and won't let you "pad" stats.

Actually, you can pad KDR in group even when the good players vacuum up all the kills - if you’re pug stomping, just don’t die, and your KDR will be amazing with the few kills you do get. Kills per match would not be able to be padded as easily this way though, as there are finite kills in any match.

That said, I believe group queue stats should be completely seperate from solo queue anyway, as it majorly swings W/L ratio and other stats if you’re in a good group.

Edited by Maddermax, 04 April 2019 - 01:48 AM.

[Maddermax]

Gagis, on 04 April 2019 - 01:40 AM, said:

KMDD/Match is best

Could be a thing too, but I wouldn’t say best. The issue with KMDD is always that spread damage and killing damage are treated the same - spread LRM vs a heavy gauss to the CT are not equally important. It does tell some of the story though, which is why KMDD would be a good thing to track anyway.

[Nesutizale]

Khobai, on 04 April 2019 - 01:41 AM, said:

KMDD isnt tracked as a stat though. so no its not really counted.

Yes its currently not counted. What I was trying to say is that we have the mechanic ingame that rewards players for doing KMDD. So somehow the game is tracking who does how much damage to what mech. So the numbers are there, we just have to extract them and use them for a KMDD tracker.

[PhoenixFire55]

Maddermax, on 04 April 2019 - 01:46 AM, said:

Actually, you can pad KDR in group even when the good players vacuum up all the kills - if you’re pug stomping, just don’t die, and your KDR will be amazing with the few kills you do get. Kills per match would not be able to be padded as easily this way though, as there are finite kills in any match.

That said, I believe group queue stats should be completely seperate from solo queue anyway, as it majorly swings W/L ratio and other stats if you’re in a good group.

PUG stomping in group queue? Since when PUGs are in group queue? ... You are in a group, with another groups on your side which are quite possibly horrible, against other groups on the other side which are quite possibly just as good/horrible as your side. If you got a 12-man, then you got 11 players on your team fully capable of "vacuuming" kills, i.e. you can't farm anything. And if you are on a 4-man that "vacuums" up all the kills because the rest of your team does fk nothing, then you fully deserve those kills.

In order to be able to swing most group queue matches in a small group in your favor your really need 3-4 top-100 players. And those farm kills in solo queue far more effectively anyway. And if you can't win 3 out of 4 group queue matches at least then you can't farm anything there to begin with.

[PhoenixFire55]

Gagis, on 04 April 2019 - 01:40 AM, said:

KMDD/Match is best

KMDD is just as meaningless. You can farm 500 damage on an Atlas with Streaks without even opening up the armor while somebody else headshots it dead. Or makes a 10 damage backstab that triggers ammo explosion and kills it.

[Maddermax]

PhoenixFire55, on 04 April 2019 - 02:01 AM, said:

PUG stomping in group queue? Since when PUGs are in group queue? ... You are in a group, with another groups on your side which are quite possibly horrible, against other groups on the other side which are quite possibly just as good/horrible as your side. If you got a 12-man, then you got 11 players on your team fully capable of "vacuuming" kills, i.e. you can't farm anything. And if you are on a 4-man that "vacuums" up all the kills because the rest of your team does fk nothing, then you fully deserve those kills.

In order to be able to swing most group queue matches in a small group in your favor your really need 3-4 top-100 players. And those farm kills in solo queue far more effectively anyway. And if you can't win 3 out of 4 group queue matches at least then you can't farm anything there to begin with.

Large, organized 8-12 man groups can kick the frankenstein 3-4 groups pretty easily, though I admit it's been nearly a year since I used it last. Used to pair up with a buddy of mine as newbies, but it took us a while to work out why this was a terrible idea, and no place for new players. Sometimes you'd be on the side with the 8-10 man team though, and then you just followed, and mopped up what you could. Other times, you were on the Frankenstein team, and basically tried to do 200dmg before dying. Of course, now Group queue is pretty dead most of the day, it might be a different story these days.

And as mentioned, if you're in a stomp, there's always a potential kill to be had somewhere, even if the best players are taking up the kills, because they can still only fire so fast. If you're walking over the enemy, sometimes you get lucky, and as long as you don't die your KDR (and WLR for that matter) will be amazing. Sure, group queue is not the golden bullet for everyone, but it can make a difference.

Edited by Maddermax, 04 April 2019 - 02:23 AM.

[Nesutizale]

You mean like the one time where I came late to the game and made 6 kills with less then 200 damage?

[PhoenixFire55]

Maddermax, on 04 April 2019 - 02:16 AM, said:

Large, organized 8-12 man groups can kick the frankenstein 3-4 groups pretty easily, though I admit it's been nearly a year since I used it last. Used to pair up with a buddy of mine as newbies, but it took us a while to work out why this was a terrible idea, and no place for new players. Sometimes you'd be on the 8-10 man team though, and then you just followed, and mopped up what you could. Other times, you were on the Frankenstein team, and basically tried to do 200dmg before dying. Of course, now Group queue is pretty dead most of the day, it might be a different story these days.

And as mentioned, if you're in a stomp, there's always a potential kill to be had somewhere, even if the best players are taking up the kills, because they can still only fire so fast. If you're walking over the enemy, sometimes you get lucky, and as long as you don't die your KDR (and WLR for that matter) will be amazing. Sure, group queue is not the golden bullet for everyone, but it can make a big difference.

Again, don't look at the anecdotes, look at what happens on average ... In group queue you win by a landslide and lose by a landslide far more often than solo. But on average, it remains basically the same for you in terms of KDR.

Sure you might mop up some kills when you are being carried, but that is hardly the case because it is always the carrying player who dictates the terms of engagement and thus usually is in the best position to kill rather than someone who follows and stays in the back. You might slightly inflate you KDR on wins, but during the loss you not only die, but also most likely kill far less than you would in solo queue when even on a horrible team you got more time to work your kills since an enemy team isn't organized enough to wipe yours in 1 min. It all compensates really.

I mean if you got a dozen slaves interns who happen to be half decent in this game and force them to play with you 24/7 and only damage enemy mechs without killing them, then sure ... you can farm KDR. But then again, such farming can be clearly seen by overbloated W/L ratio.

[RJF Volkodav]

The thing is that we are forced all the time to look at the group and solo stats mixed. If they would be divided - stats could be a way better measure. I.e. i played last month more games in groupQ than usually so i see that groupQ inflates KDR and WLR (especially playing 3-4 man group with divA players) and at the same time AMS goes lower because enemies die much faster than in soloQ ).

Best would be to separate groupQ and soloQ stats.

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 04 April 2019 - 02:42 AM.

[Nesutizale]

In other words its like roleing dice. In a statistic you will get an even distribution of numbers rolled if you role enough dice.

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 01:00 AM, said:

Yeah, but see, that's exactly why I think it's not a good thing to track.. because people want to better themselves, and track balance - but kills are soooo situational, and depend on so many factors that tracking just KDR is not a very good show of skill..

They can be padded by playing with an organised group.

Kills can be achieved with doing as little as 4 damage, after saaay, a LRM boat did most of the work.

Deaths can be achieved by your team mate putting a gauss slug into your back.

You can score multiple kills in an assault and zero kills in a light, or vice versa...

You can do multiple kills with a LRM boat and zero with a Gauss sniper, or vice versa..

As I said.. it's just not a very good measure of individual, or even overall skill..

Meanwhile I suggested Efficient Kill long ago, but you just cried about how it's going to oppress the lurmboats that "does all the work".

Funny, because if people didn't locked for the Lurm-Boats, then they can't do the work. So really, it's the spotters that does the work for the Lurm-Boat.

And as I said, it's with context. Such as if you are skillful enough to actually do 8 kills like a certain Battle-Shuriken, and be slick enough to steal those kills, then maybe, just maybe, you are good in something.

[Vellron2005]

Kroete, on 04 April 2019 - 01:36 AM, said:

Until pug and group stats are divided and we can see kmdd the stats we have are nearly meaningless.



Sweeping the victim with a laser neither ...

You cant denie that the one how removed the armor and 96% of the centerstructur did more work then the one that sweeped his lasers only once and killed it.
That he did also lots of damage to legs, sidetorsos and arms dont matter, he still opened the center and removed 96% of the structur.

And why i have often less then 40% of my mech left,
if all the pinpointweapons do only meaningfull damage,
shouldnt i get cored after a few hits?

Arguing with PhoenixFire is pointless.. He's just gonna ignore your point completely and say you are wrong.. like trump..

And then when you remove a target's armor, take it's arms and torsos (along with mounted weapons, armor and heat sinks), or leg it so it moves at a crawl, he's just gonna pump his high laser alpha into the target's CT or backstab it with SRMs/MG's and call it "an efficient kill".. even tho you did all the work..

And he'll completely ignore the fact that when in a large coordinated group you are much less likely to get killed yourself, and much more likely to score a kill simply cose' the opposing team will make mistakes, get farmed, and simply panic when the game starts going south.. So yeah, you can maybe shine in QP with individual skill, but in a premade, you are far more likely to do well simply cose' you have your team to do all the things he's gonna ignore the team does anyway..

So yeah.. typical "take all the credit, you underlings didn't do nothing, I did it all myself" type of person..

I hope he doesn't have people who call him "boss"..

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 04 April 2019 - 03:04 AM, said:

Funny, because if people didn't locked for the Lurm-Boats, then they can't do the work. So really, it's the spotters that does the work for the Lurm-Boat.

Wrong.

Spotters and LRM boats work together..

What you said is akin to saying that the electrical companies do all the work of life-saving, because they power the life support machines in hospitals that doctors use..

Don't generalize..

[Prototelis]

I like how he continually refers to what he does as "work"

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

Wrong.

Spotters and LRM boats work together..

Lol. People working together agrees.

What LRM boats do is leech off the lock, and when they can't hold it anymore, the LRM's can't land. This is why you get the whine "hold locks plz". Locking your enemy is the norm, etiquette of combat, holding it long enough for LRM users' consideration is the teamwork with the LRM boat.

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 03:11 AM, said:

What you said is akin to saying that the electrical companies do all the work of life-saving, because they power the life support machines in hospitals that doctors use..

Don't generalize..

Funny, you say don't generalize, yet you'd generalize what I said to a different situation. We have different responsibilities, such as a pilot here has his responsibility to be less of a burden to his team and actually contribute. On the other hand, the hospital do have the job to keep people alive, which is a different thing.

Also, here's Efficient Kill: https://mwomercs.com...efficient-kill/

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 April 2019 - 03:26 AM.