61 replies to this topic

[Kroete]

I did more efficent damage then you leecher, you are a killstealing vulture, ....,
doesnt matter for a win as a team, it only matters for you and your ego and your epeen.

Stats that are not wl, should only be showen in competive modes, this would remove a lot of hate.

Edited by Kroete, 04 April 2019 - 04:04 AM.

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 04 April 2019 - 03:24 AM, said:

Lol. People working together agrees.

What LRM boats do is leech off the lock, and when they can't hold it anymore, the LRM's can't land. This is why you get the whine "hold locks plz". Locking your enemy is the norm, etiquette of combat, holding it long enough for LRM users' consideration is the teamwork with the LRM boat.



Funny, you say don't generalize, yet you'd generalize what I said to a different situation. We have different responsibilities, such as a pilot here has his responsibility to be less of a burden to his team and actually contribute. On the other hand, the hospital do have the job to keep people alive, which is a different thing.

Also, here's Efficient Kill: https://mwomercs.com...efficient-kill/

I'm sorry, I just can't take what you're saying seriously at all, since it's based on prejudice that LRM boats leech of others and don't work with the team..

That's just blatantly wrong, and we're never gonna agree on anything based on this..

This goes for all other people who begin stating their argument with this prejudice and with calling people names..

BUT

Let's get back to the topic at hand, yes?

It's not another LRM thread.. it's about KDR being a good or bad way to track skill..

I say Average Match score is a much better way to track contribution to the team, since it includes AMS, spotting, scouting, capping and many other things that KDR doesn't take into consideration..

Edited by Vellron2005, 04 April 2019 - 04:06 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Kroete, on 04 April 2019 - 04:03 AM, said:

I did more efficent damage then you leecher, statpadding, vulturing, ...., doesnt matter for a win as a team,
it only matters for you and your ego and your epeen.

Stats that are not wl, should only be showen in competive modes, this would remove a lot of hate.

E-peen and bolstering ego is kinda part and side-effect of stats at this point.

But we can always just ignore it.

[The6thMessenger]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 04:05 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I just can't take what you're saying seriously at all, since it's based on prejudice that LRM boats leech of others and don't work with the team..

That's just blatantly wrong, and we're never gonna agree on anything based on this..

It's always just easier to just dismiss other people instead of discussing with them, amirite?

Well, now it's kinda wrong considering that you CAN get your own locks now and get your own DF volleys.

But if you're limiting yourself to IDF, then you are just leeching. You know why you're leeching? Because mechanically, it takes little of you to just lurm your IDF volleys, but the guy holding the locks for you, he's the one paying for a chance to get hurt because LOS works both ways, he's the one actually moving around to get the lock for you while the IDF LRM user could just sit in one place.

Parasitic? Perhaps, though sure, weakening enemy armor is helpful, but consider the return. Such as the LRM's inefficiency when used IDF, as opposed of DF use, or other bonafide DF for that matter. It's just much better to peek-poke-hide, as opposed of people having to hold your lock for you and get more incoming damage in the process. You are, quite literally better off getting your own locks for that tighter missile fire that minimizes the incoming fire to your team (by yourself) as opposed of maximizing incoming fire for the poor guy that gives your locks.

But again, but's always just easier to just dismiss other people instead of discussing with them, amirite?

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 04:05 AM, said:

It's not another LRM thread.. it's about KDR being a good or bad way to track skill..

Like I said, it's with context. Stealing kills consistently, such as War_Glaivez do take skill.

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 04:05 AM, said:

I say Average Match score is a much better way to track contribution to the team, since it includes AMS, spotting, scouting, capping and many other things that KDR doesn't take into consideration..

Sure. But it's contribution, not skill, which are two different concepts were actually discussing right now. Anyone can spot, anyone can stand and AMS, anyone can cap.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 April 2019 - 02:01 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 03:07 AM, said:

Arguing with PhoenixFire is pointless.. He's just gonna ignore your point completely and say you are wrong.. like trump..

Still better than outright lieing and gobbels propaganda that you do ... like Clinton.

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 03:07 AM, said:

So yeah.. typical "take all the credit, you underlings didn't do nothing, I did it all myself" type of person..

I hope he doesn't have people who call him "boss"..

Had a EU competitive team that called me "boss" for three seasons. Brought it up from division.D to division.A. Did it all myself of course.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 04 April 2019 - 04:36 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Maddermax, on 04 April 2019 - 01:46 AM, said:

Actually, you can pad KDR in group even when the good players vacuum up all the kills - if you’re pug stomping, just don’t die, and your KDR will be amazing with the few kills you do get. Kills per match would not be able to be padded as easily this way though, as there are finite kills in any match.

That said, I believe group queue stats should be completely seperate from solo queue anyway, as it majorly swings W/L ratio and other stats if you’re in a good group.

And you see that result in the first page of the leader boards every month when you sort by KDR or WLR. People playing exclusively group queue with ridiculously high ratios because they're dropping as 12 mans all on the same teamspeak or discord channel against mixed groups who aren't likely communicating well to one another and curb stomping them.

Currently 4 days into the new season there's Queenblade at 35 kills and 0 deaths in #1 spot on the KDR board, but that's over 22 matches for a 1.59 Kills/Match Ratio. Down in 15th place though we have s33ra with 50 kills and 6 deaths for a 8.33 KDR, but that's over 24 matches for a 2.08 KMR. More importantly Queenblade has an average match score of 312 whereas s33ra has a 512 AMS. So as long as the metrics that are tracked and sorted by are WLR & KDR, we'll see results like that continue.

And because as you already pointed out, there's no seperation of the solo and group queue stats, it isn't immediately obvious to most (who aren't familiar with the names and haven't played against them in the respective queues) as to know if the stats were achieved via organized units in group queue or not.

I can put my own stats up as an example here... Until last month, I basically never bothered with group queue at all outside of the rare times PGI used it as a requirement for an event. So January exclusively in solo queue I went 94 wins 92 losses (1.02 WLR), 154 kills 116 deaths (1.33 KDR) over 186 matches with a 276 AMS.If we had a kills per match ratio being calculated and tracked for us we'd get a result of 0.82. Last month though (and I'm comparing Jan to March because both are 31 day months) though I did a fair chunk of group queue play as I'm trying to train up a brand new to the game player who's Tier 5, and a couple returning "retired" players who started when the game was closed beta, but hadn't played hardly at all for about a year. So over 397 matches last month, I ended up at 182 wins 215 losses (0.85 WLR) 353 kills 265 deaths (1.33 KDR which is the same as January) and 285 AMS (9 higher than January). The kills per match ratio would be about 0.89. Now about 80 of those 397 matches were in the group queue, but I do not recall how many were wins and how many losses and so one but a rough guess is more than forty losses going from the stats for march from the three players I was grouping with who were also pretty much only using group play.

Now the three players I was grouping with are Buttons the Fierce (brand new to the game), Phd Doom (closed beta era player returning to the game) and Timberwolfjones (don't know when he began with the game but was from a time when there were a lot more large units) and it wasn't always the four of us together. The first dozen matches my IRL friend Buttons played were with me only. Then her IRL boyfriend (Phd Doom) joined us, and then a couple days later his IRL friend (Timberwolfjones) joined as well. Some matches were just myself and Phd Doom, some were with timberwolfjones as well. Now buttons died frequently and the UI for this game, compared to any other major online multiplayer SUCKS, so the learning curve is hard for new players, not to mention a lot of maps to learn, and different weapon systems that veterans take knowledge of for granted so her WLR (0.50) and KDR (0.12) were low but still, she stuck it out for 103 (34 wins, 68 losses 1 tie) matches with a 73 AMS in about 2 weeks time. That's a lot more matches than many "veterans", especially forum warriors here manage in a month. Vellron2005 above for example... 24 quick play matches in all of March and only 38 in February for a two month total of 62 matches.

So far in the past four days of April, she's done another 16 matches without me (8 wins 8 losses for a 1.00 WLR, 4 kills and 14 deaths for a 0.29 KDR) with a 147 AMS so I would say all the time using group queue to train her up last month is already showing positive results.

Edited by Dee Eight, 04 April 2019 - 04:42 AM.

[BIOHAZARD]

This thread is so useless. Its been done before to no effect. PGI doesn't change any of this stuff, its too much work.

The proper way to distribute players into skill levels, with measures available is:

(Kills + KMDD + Solo Kills)/ Deaths

Nothing really to discuss here.

[PhoenixFire55]

BIOHAZARD, on 04 April 2019 - 04:39 AM, said:

This thread is so useless. Its been done before to no effect. PGI doesn't change any of this stuff, its too much work.

The proper way to distribute players into skill levels, with measures available is:

(Kills + KMDD + Solo Kills)/ Deaths

Nothing really to discuss here.

Hmmm ... You do realize that Solo Kill = Kill + KMDD, right? ... So essentially your ahem ... "proper way" is to add up the same thing twice for no particular reason at all. But please, tell us more about "proper ways".

[Sjorpha]

I'm not sure what the question means since k/d isn't actually used for anything in MWO, it's just a number you look at.

[BIOHAZARD]

"But please, tell us more about "proper ways". "

I know a troll when I see one. Thanks.

Edited by BIOHAZARD, 04 April 2019 - 05:02 AM.

[Kroete]

BIOHAZARD, on 04 April 2019 - 04:39 AM, said:

This thread is so useless. Its been done before to no effect. PGI doesn't change any of this stuff, its too much work.

The proper way to distribute players into skill levels, with measures available is:

(Kills + KMDD + Solo Kills)/ Deaths

Nothing really to discuss here.

For solaris, sure.
For all other modes not.

[PhoenixFire55]

BIOHAZARD, on 04 April 2019 - 05:01 AM, said:

"But please, tell us more about "proper ways". "

I know a troll when I see one. Thanks.

Nothing to say about your "proper ways" of adding up the same thing twice then?

Takes one to know one ya know ...

[Mystere]

Maddermax, on 03 April 2019 - 09:09 PM, said:

Just a thought, but why not use Average kills per match as a main statistic rather than Kills/Death Ratio? In other shooters with respawns, KDR makes more sense as it denotes how often you have to respawn to get your kills. In a game like MWO though it makes much less sense, as it doesn’t matter if your KDR is 5 or 15 if you’re getting it by not engaging early and then hiding at the end of a match, rather than pushing for victory.

If Average Kills per Match were used instead, it actually draws a line between those who are getting KDR through actually bringing enemies down often, and those who do it by simply avoiding the fight, picking off DCs and wounded stragglers, and then hiding.

what do you think?

Winning is still the best measure. Even the team mascot must be doing something right if winning more that losing. <shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 04 April 2019 - 08:15 AM.

[Mystere]

Maddermax, on 03 April 2019 - 11:35 PM, said:

You may be right, and yet stats is brought up all the time, on the forums and in game. Some people like to know their stats, have something to work towards or as an indicator that they're doing well or at least improving. It's unhealthy when stats drive bad behavior though, and we see that in game at the moment, with people fleeing from combat or taking passive roles to pad their own stats at the expense of team chances.

What I'm saying is that if stats are to be had, at least make them more meaningful and less likely to drive bad behaviors.

If that is your primary concern, then make them completely private, as they used to be.

[Prototelis]

Vellron2005, on 04 April 2019 - 04:05 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I just can't take what you're saying seriously at all, since it's based on prejudice that LRM boats leech of others and don't work with the team..

That's just blatantly wrong, and we're never gonna agree on anything based on this..

#notalllrmboats

Just you and hordes of other leech lock auto aim damage farmers.

Quote

I say Average Match score is a much better way to track contribution to the team, since it includes AMS, spotting, scouting, capping and many other things that KDR doesn't take into consideration..

Average match score is only part of the picture. Of course you'd point out AMS as the only base stat that matters, its the one you can most easily farm by never presenting to the enemy.

[ShaneoftheDead]

Has PGI ever released their Match Making algorithm/process?

Edited by ShaneoftheDead, 05 April 2019 - 09:55 AM.

[JediPanther]

My stats say i'm the best pilot in the game. I love my stats. No one can defeat my stats. My stats make me superior to you all.-Every stat warrior and competitive play ever.

**** stats. I came to play a video game and have fun with it.If this game ain't fun I have other games to play.-Me

[ShaneoftheDead]

Neither.

Match Making
The Problem: Teams are often not evenly balanced.
Conditions: 24 players with different skill levels, 24 Mechs with various levels of combat effectiveness, several maps that impact combat effectiveness of various weapon systems.

Present Options:
The Tier System is flawed, in that the highest levels can be achieved by people that do not belong there by grinding; and it is too broad in scope as it treats all Mechs as equal.

Win/Loss Raito is flawed, in that your ratio is largely determined by other people. You are but 1 of 24 people playing any given match. Also, it treats all Mechs as equals.

K/D Ratio is too broad in scope as it treats all Mechs as equals. It also encourages game play like kill-stealing and hiding.

Average Match Score, again, is too broad in scope; treating all Mechs equal. Also, the method of calculating Match Score may or may not be accurate. That is another topic.

None of these choices are very good, so we need more options. But what? Let's talk about winning.

Winning a Match
While there are other win conditions, I believe we can all agree that most matches are determined by Kills. To get Kills, you need to do enough damage to one or more locations on any given Mech. Can we calculate this?

Very difficult. Would need an algorithm that would know which part of a Mech you should be shooting at, given your weapon load-out, then track your accuracy and firing rate at that given location on the target Mech. All of which changes constantly as the other 23 people in the match make choices and do things. Take note that I am ignoring other map objectives. So a perfect solution is not viable without an AI, so lets look for a "good enough" solution that does not treat all Mechs the same. I believe we can all agree that say a LCT with 2 MedLsr and a NARC is less effective than a AS7-D-DC with UAC20 and two MRM30.

Requirement: Create 2 teams that have a relatively balanced offensive potential.

Execution: To do that, we have to calculate the Combat Value (CV) for each Mech in the available pool that takes into account the player that is piloting it. Also, we must avoid over-valuing Kill Stealers and ineffective damage.

Potential Options:
A - Use Global Average Match Score (GAMS) for that Mech Variant and then factor in the Player's K/D in that Mech Variant. So, perhaps CV = GAMS x K/D

B - Use Global Average Damage Per Drop (GADpD) for that Mech Variant and then factor in the Player's K/D. So it would be CV = GADpD x KD

C - Use that player's historical performance in that Mech Variant on its own. Something like CV = K/D x DpD

D - go full Sabermetric mode and devise and calculate a Wins Above Average (if this pilot is on your team, expect to win this many more games out of 100 compared to if an average player was in their place) for each player and apply that to the expected performance of the Mech Load-Out they are piloting.

Refinement:
We could use the Mech's Heat Rating and the Maps ambient temperature to adjust the CV slightly. For example, hot mechs on a hot map get a slightly reduced CV. And LRM boats on Polar or other LRM friendly maps get a bump in CV. Things like that.

[Grus]

W/l and average match score are the best but not in them self's the only picture. If we had a good matchmaker then I'd say sure. But IMHO I'll put my money on the team of 12 with a positive K/D rather than the sub k/d with a positive w/l.

[thievingmagpi]

Throws/100