114 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

I know I'm late to the party, but on the subject of invisible walls at the top of page 5 and strikes...


A TAG can be used as an invisible wall detector. A pair of them on opposite sides of your mech is extremely effective at this when trying to map them out.

[Rosh87]

Interesting concept, Konniving ! They are pretty lightweight too - could be useful in that role. Though, what do some of you guys do to keep them lit up the entire game - or are people just holding a mouse button or something permanently, throughout the fight?

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* also - a bit random (was going to put this in main Forum, but figured it's still a New Guy sort of question, so worthy of putting here still) - I'm considering one of the Black Jack mechs. I think they look like "baby" Rifleman, that have not yet grown up - lol...and one fascinated me, as I found out it has some nice Dakka Quirks (AC-2).

However...looking them over, I'm now confused, as it seems the specialist AC-2 one is potentially Worse than the "non-specialist" one ? I'll list the Quirks of Interest for the two variants I'm debating below, for comparison purposes:

Black Jack BJ-1:

Ballistic Cooldown 10%, AC-2 Cooldown 10%, Ballistic Range 10%, Range 10%, Ballistic Velocity 10%, Heat -10%


Black Jack BJ-1DC:

Ballistic Cooldown 20%, Ballistic Range 10%, Range 10%, Ballistic Heat -5%, Heat -10%, Laser Duration -10%

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So...there they are. Both have the same Hardpoints EXCEPT that the BJ-DC has 2 extra Energy Points (2 B, 6 E), compared ot the (2B, 4 E) of the supposedly "AC-2 Specialist Black Jack".

The thing I find perplexing is that the BJ-1's total Ballistic Cooldown bonus when using AC-2's works out to 20% faster / more shots, etc.... but the DC's flat 20% Ballistic Cooldown EQUALS this ...and would apply to ANY Ballistics you mount on it - not JUST the AC-2's !

Not only is there this strange discrepancy, but looking at the Quirks side by side, the only special thing that the BJ-1 has over the DC is that it gets "Ballistic Velocity +10%".... however, this is 'matched or exceeded' (heavily, IMHO ), by the fact that the DC is awarded -5% Ballistic Heat and -10% Laser Duration (both quirks the BJ-1 doesn't get). So total heat generated by BJ-DC ballistics is -15% (B-Heat -5% and overall Heat -10%).

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TL/DR: Given the quirk imbalance, should I go for the BJ1-DC over the basic BJ-1...and WHY does the supposed "AC-2 specialist mech" actually end up being WORSE (even with AC-2's !) to the DC variant (and the DC variant is better with every other Ballistic - that's not an AC-2...AND has +2 Energy Hardpoints !) ? Seems really strange.... Thanks for your inputs and suggestions !

[Horseman]

Rosh87, on 24 June 2019 - 02:40 AM, said:

Interesting concept, Konniving ! They are pretty lightweight too - could be useful in that role. Though, what do some of you guys do to keep them lit up the entire game - or are people just holding a mouse button or something permanently, throughout the fight?

I don't recommend this - you'd be telegraphing your position to the enemy and attracting additional fire.

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TL/DR: Given the quirk imbalance, should I go for the BJ1-DC over the basic BJ-1...and WHY does the supposed "AC-2 specialist mech" actually end up being WORSE (even with AC-2's !) to the DC variant (and the DC variant is better with every other Ballistic - that's not an AC-2...AND has +2 Energy Hardpoints !) ? Seems really strange.... Thanks for your inputs and suggestions !

The BJ-1 has jump jets, the BJ-1DC doesn't.
Given the ranges BJ-1 is supposed to engage at, Velocity matters quite a bit (you'll get more shots on target at long range)
Think of it that way: the -1DC is meant to fight at closer ranges, whereas the -1 is meant to get up on a high perch - or poptart - and snipe the hell out of the enemy.
Further, the mech's tonnage is VERY restrictive - if you install anything beyond AC2s, you won't have adequate tonnage to make use of those energy hardpoints anyway.

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but the DC's flat 20% Ballistic Cooldown EQUALS this ...and would apply to ANY Ballistics you mount on it - not JUST the AC-2's !

You can only fit one (U)AC10 or (U)AC20 on there - or two (U)AC2 or (U)AC5s. You could use RACs, but they're not affected by the cooldown quirks.

You can write off 2xUAC2, 1(U)xAC10 and 1xAC20 as strictly inferior in DPS to 2xAC2 and 2x(U)AC5 builds (while costing more tonnage). This leaves you with 12 tons for 8.170 DPS (2xAC2), 16 tons for 8.859 DPS (2xAC5), 18 tons for 9.769 DPS (2xUAC5) or 15 tons for 9.705 DPS (UAC20).

2xAC2 and UAC20 are the best options there (0.6808 DPS/T and 0.6470 DPS/T), as going from 2xAC2 to 2xAC5 increases your DPS by only 8.5% for 30% more tonnage and going from 2xAC2 to 2xUAC5 increases your DPS by only 20% for 50% more tonnage (again: tonnage is tight on a ballistic Blackjack). Between those, only 2xAC2 allows you to make use of all six energy hardpoints on the mech, while UAC20 pretty much limits you to the four in your torso.

Edited by Horseman, 24 June 2019 - 06:36 AM.

[Koniving]

Rosh87, on 24 June 2019 - 02:40 AM, said:

Interesting concept, Konniving ! They are pretty lightweight too - could be useful in that role. Though, what do some of you guys do to keep them lit up the entire game - or are people just holding a mouse button or something permanently, throughout the fight?

Fire Control or other macro, or someone once said he wedged a penny into holding the #6 key down.

But as horseman said, it's basically advertising where you are (and despite its stated range, that beam is visible as far out as 1,800 meters in whatever direction you point... farther than that a person can see exactly where the laser just abruptly ends from any diagonal or perpendicular angle.)

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* also - a bit random (was going to put this in main Forum, but figured it's still a New Guy sort of question, so worthy of putting here still) - I'm considering one of the Black Jack mechs. I think they look like "baby" Rifleman, that have not yet grown up - lol...and one fascinated me, as I found out it has some nice Dakka Quirks (AC-2).

However...looking them over, I'm now confused, as it seems the specialist AC-2 one is potentially Worse than the "non-specialist" one ? I'll list the Quirks of Interest for the two variants I'm debating below, for comparison purposes:

Black Jack BJ-1:

Ballistic Cooldown 10%, AC-2 Cooldown 10%, Ballistic Range 10%, Range 10%, Ballistic Velocity 10%, Heat -10%


Black Jack BJ-1DC:

Ballistic Cooldown 20%, Ballistic Range 10%, Range 10%, Ballistic Heat -5%, Heat -10%, Laser Duration -10%

BJ-1
AC/2 total benefits: 20% cooldown (10% for any other ballistic [note this doesn't include MGs])., range 20%, velocity 10%, heat -10%.

Comparison.
BJ-1 20% cooldown, range 20%, velocity 10%, heat -10%.
BJ-1DC 20% cooldown. range 20% Velocity 0%, heat -15%.

Comically...these are actually the same mech with one having a second seat for a co-pilot/passenger that can take over when the main pilot loses consciousness.
That's literally it. But MWO was never bright enough to dig into how to really capture the source material. And when they did, they often cited "it didn't sound very fun." When things die like they do in MWO...suppose they're right, it isn't really fun.

Now if it was more like closed beta, where two Atlases can be like battleships and slug it out for almost two minutes, or a fight between a Hunchback and a Centurion with buildings and streets to fiddle with could devolve into a brisk walking slug fest (weapons shot slower, heat mattered a little bit more than it does now, which is a LOT more than it did for almost 5 years, then you had convergence issues and a radar that updated once every 1 second rather than in real time so you had that aliens tracker like effect without the sound or the visual for the scan, blip...blip...blip.. Where did he go? Blip [above you])... it was an all too surreal experience. Back then, there was actuator damage (left leg actuator hit, now you have to make periodic course corrections as your left leg is not moving as fast as the right [not reflected in animations]). Arm actuator hit? Welp, your shots aren't gonna line up right. Etc.

Imagine if they kept evolving the simulation aspect rather than trying to follow Hawken with the Arcade aspect... Potentially losing consciousness or having blackouts would be a much more sensible penalty for excessive rapid heat buildup than ghost heat. And that second pilot could be a godsend. (Also, usually the DC variant has less equipment; for Blackjacks it was the exception. Honestly the BJ1 should have had 4 ballistics or at least 3).

Blackout example (not losing consciousness)
Note the screen keeps fading when using the lasers... This was an actual in game effect (an issue with the burning metal being too bright).. imagine if this was done as a mechanic for excessive laser vomit..and more deliberately.
That simulation feel
Not so simulationy, but note the street is getting pulverized when I'm tripped. <--Also how minimum range works in Battletech... instead of magic no damage ********.

Convergence image/gif below.

Spoiler

Impossible much?

Now in closed beta, note someone is trying to shoot me on the bottom left toward the right (from behind)

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*Snipped quirk rant*

You're preaching to the choir. Quirks was originally made to make up for shortcomings on a mech. For example a Grasshopper has a single missile hardpoint with a single slot available, severely limiting your options. Quirks was supposed to buff that to the point that you'd find it useful, such as a 50% firing rate increase.

Although it existed on mechs before it was even given a name

Spoiler

(Pretty Baby, 200% torso twist rate, fast acceleration, -50% braking power...incidentally this was given before the hill adjustments to prevent mechs from gluing to virtually any angle and climb anything. Afterward, this set of quirks meant that the Awesome hero mech was able to climb hills and surfaces that literally nothing else could climb, and get to places that no other mech in the game could possibly get, including game breaking areas... but then quirks became normal, and negative quirks were removed... and with that, the Pretty Baby became garbage)....

the quirks were largely done as a presented to the player system with the Clan introduction. When you can choose arms with 12 hardpoints, why would you use the Nova's arm with 1 hardpoint or 3? Simple, the 3 hardpoint arm could fire slightly faster, and the single hardpoint arm was loaded down with quirks.

But players quickly abused this and their high numbers because you could take one arm with a single energy hardpoint and the opposing arm with 12 hardpoints, have so much energy relief that ghost heat could be ignored and then break the game. So rather than lock quirk effects to specific limbs, they got changed to be 5 to 25% with no more 50% bonuses. And even then 25% was rarely applied and quirks were usually done so that at best you could get 25% in total....few exceptions.

These also got applied to literally everything, ultimately defeating the purpose of quirks and changing their purpose to 'flavor'. But then there's problems with that..and it just keeps rolling.

Edited by Koniving, 24 June 2019 - 09:40 AM.

[Rosh87]

Good points - Konniving ! I am almost at the point I may consider trying out LURMs.. as my "bar" to fill up Tier-1 'completely' is nearing the end. For some reason, it took a virtual eternity to go from Tier-2 to Tier-1... as long as the whole trek from 5 up to 2... but the Tier-1 bar (itself) is filling up relatively quickly. I guess maybe I have gotten better - and produce more "= signs" at the end of a match, even during a Loss ...which helps prevent "bar progress decay" - if I understand how the system works.

Once I fully fill the bar, I think maybe I would have earned the right to test out LRM's.... ehh...maybe / maybe not. The playstyle seems notably less dynamic than almost any other in the game - so maybe I would find it sort of boring / non-fulfilling. Part of the reason I love Dakka so much, is the joy of seeing round after round pulverizing the enemy mech's hull... and that's something you'd never get firing missiles Indirectly, at a target 900 meters away, I'd guess ...

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I've generally been having fun with a few new purchases: Sun Spider Manul, and Night Gyr Jade Kite, and was debating adding a new Medium to my arsenal. Thought about Enforcer (the one that has two Ballistics appeals to my Dakka Love, but not entirely sure it has much else going for it). On Lights, the Firestarter sounds intriguing, as a buddy has shown me in recent days the power of the Flamers, and how they utterly humiliate Energy heavy enemies. Like...seriously they just melt.

Using my Blood Asp this weekend, in the Group Q with my buddy.... (just the two of us, with 10 randoms, effectively)... I had my 2nd greatest game of all time (since starting this game, this year). I was using an interesting setup of 5 LB-2x shotguns, with the right arm having 3 Clan Flamers. The result was astounding, as - on Solaris City - I went nuts - completely shutting down and annihilating 4 separate mechs (and killing a further two with conventional ballistics fire at range) !

The highlight was a Madcat 2 with Pulse Lasers and Missiles literally backpedaling, comically, as I flamed him - while continually barraging him with my LB-2 shots ! I finished the battle (it was quite close - like 12-10, I think)... with a final kill shot on an enemy Light mech - and it was also my final ammo (so every shot used up). The results ?

- Killing Blow: 6
- Kill Assist: 2
- Solo Kill: 5
- KMDD: 5
- Damage Done: 1518 !!!

- Spotting Assist: 2
- Components Destroyed: 16
- Savior Kill: 1
- UAV Detection: 2

Credits: 537,187
XP: 9076 (x2 first win of the night in the Blood Asp)

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So....yeah - my joy with this game continues ! Big props to all you veterans guiding me so well !

[Void Angel]

Flamers are amazing against hot builds, or if people don't see you coming, and the constant rattle of fast-firing ballistics will disconcert a lot of people - their gut reaction is to protect their 'mech, because incoming fire is death. If they keep their heads and spread damage until your flamers start to affect your heat, they might be ok - unless they just brought heavy energy weapons, and they're screwed. Me, I usually bring at least one missile or ballistic system, partly for flamers, but partly because they allow me to get more out of my heat sinks, as I prefer an active build that can maintain high levels of activity before overheating.

For missiles, if you want dynamic... try them on a medium. Or a fast heavy, but you want to be able to maneuver around the battlefield. People HATE explosive rain, so you can use their dislike to project combat presence and control the flow of battle. If you're good; if you just stare downrange from the back and hope the missiles you fired hit (or better yet, cry and whine because the people actually getting shot aren't "holding locks,") then they'll be just as boring as you suspect - but I have more faith in you than that.

Just splash some low-tonnage energy weapons into the build so you're not totally helpless if you run out of ammo - or into angry lights.

[John McClintock]

What an amazingly informative thread. Tag for more reading at home.

[MOBAjobg]

I've seen you in quite a number of matches and you're good.

[Rosh87]

MOBAjobg, on 03 July 2019 - 06:37 AM, said:

I've seen you in quite a number of matches and you're good.

Thank you MOBA ! I really appreciate the kind words - it's a testament to the good guidance so many on the forums and such have granted to me, that I've been able to grow as I have, as a pilot, in a comparatively short span of actual play-time.

[Rosh87]

* So - a looong time between posts here, but I hadn't had any real new questions till one popped up in my mind, in the last week or so. Basically, do you guys see much benefit to using Heavy Machine Guns (ever) over the Light or "standard" versions (for either IS or Clan mechs) ?

I know they do more outright damage-over-time, but I've also heard things like "MG's of all types are hit-scan" - meaning that they instantly fly out to their max distance, and strike anything in that cone of fire - without you having to really adjust for the 'on-screen' bullet travel time, when shooting them ?

If that is true, then do mechs that have "Ballistic Cooldown or ROF" increase quirks, actually do anything special in terms of interacting with Machine Guns ?

- lastly, for the few Clan (or IS) Light or Medium mechs than can mount a ton of MG's (but no Real ballistics due to limited Pod Space or Weight allowance), is there a point to heaping tons of MG's on em (I know a few Piranha species can do this to great effect, but I was thinking of something larger like a Black Lanner Hero or such) ?


:-)


(thanks for any insight you guys can continue to give)

[Horseman]

Rosh87, on 03 September 2019 - 07:13 AM, said:

* So - a looong time between posts here, but I hadn't had any real new questions till one popped up in my mind, in the last week or so. Basically, do you guys see much benefit to using Heavy Machine Guns (ever) over the Light or "standard" versions (for either IS or Clan mechs) ?

Brawler builds, IF and only IF you have both hardpoints and tonnage to spare. And I don't really see any mech where that applies.

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I know they do more outright damage-over-time,

More damage per hardpoint, but less damage per tonnage.

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but I've also heard things like "MG's of all types are hit-scan" - meaning that they instantly fly out to their max distance, and strike anything in that cone of fire - without you having to really adjust for the 'on-screen' bullet travel time, when shooting them ?

That is correct.

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If that is true, then do mechs that have "Ballistic Cooldown or ROF" increase quirks, actually do anything special in terms of interacting with Machine Guns ?

No. Machine Guns do not benefit from cooldown quirks.

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- lastly, for the few Clan (or IS) Light or Medium mechs than can mount a ton of MG's (but no Real ballistics due to limited Pod Space or Weight allowance), is there a point to heaping tons of MG's on em (I know a few Piranha species can do this to great effect, but I was thinking of something larger like a Black Lanner Hero or such) ?

I've seen some Bellonarius builds that used a pair of SRMs and 6x MG. It can work, and a similar build can be done on a Shadow Cat. Other than that it's ACH, MLX and the PIRs as everything else either can't carry much MGs or has enough spare tonnage to mount bigger weapons. I guess you could include the MG Javelin and Jenner IIC hero in this.

[Roland09]

Rosh87, on 03 September 2019 - 07:13 AM, said:

If that is true, then do mechs that have "Ballistic Cooldown or ROF" increase quirks, actually do anything special in terms of interacting with Machine Guns ?

While general cooldown quirks do not affect machine guns, there are a few mechs with specific machine gun ROF quirks - these do affect MGs, as advertised. Vulcan, P-Hawk variants come to mind. Usually, these quirks are applied to mechs starved for ballistic hardpoints, and thus generally not worth constructing mg builds around.

[ARob]

12

[TheWarhammer]

Glad to see some fresh blood with some excitement for the game Rosh87. No go out and recruit some buddies to play! ;-)

[Void Angel]

In general, Machine Guns are a niche weapon in MWO. They're generally best for fast 'mechs that can boat them, but their staring requirement is a huge drawback in larger Battlemechs, since someone with similarly short-ranged weapons with cooldowns can twist - while you have to stare at him for your damage.