64 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I just realized that the MCII-B's stock loadout is 2x UAC20. While there are others like the Broiler and the HBK-IIC (Prime) that got HSL+1 on UAC20, what if the MCII-B got the same quirk on account of it's loadout?

Would it be a meta or just a new fad?

[FupDup]

It would have lower range, velocity, and deeps compared to the classic 2 UAC/10 + 2 UAC/5 build. On the other hand the saved tonnage would let you put in some energy weapons like a pair of Peepers or Large Wubs. It probably wouldn't attain anywhere near the popularity of the current build.

[Ilfi]

UAC20s are bad for reasons completely separate from Ghost Heat.

[Y E O N N E]

The Boiler has low mounts, and the Night star has ultra wide mounts, and the HBK-IIC has to run slow and extremely hot to make dual UAC/20s work.

What glaring weakness does the MCII-B have which will offset this gift?

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 03:58 PM, said:

What glaring weakness does the MCII-B have which will offset this gift?

Kinda why we're discussing right now.

That being said, It would probably be somewhat slow as well, buuut it has good armor. Likewise it's a less-optimized build vs UAC5+UAC10 x2, so it's probably not that powerful if it's good.

[justcallme A S H]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 03:58 PM, said:

What glaring weakness does the MCII-B have which will offset this gift?

Absolutely nothing as well all know lol.

Definitely a mech that does not need quirks.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 04:06 PM, said:

Kinda why we're discussing right now.

That being said, It would probably be somewhat slow as well,

Not slow at all.

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buuut it has good armor.

And fairly decent hitboxes, unlike the Nightstar (seriously PGI, remove the ears when they don't have missiles).

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Likewise it's a less-optimized build vs UAC5+UAC10 x2, so it's probably not that powerful if it's good.

Being less-good than the best build isn't a reason to give it quirks to make this other build good. It would be flatly superior to the Boiler with such an HSL quirk, which kinda defeats the purpose of giving the Boiler said quirk: to give it a unique ability that makes it worth considering in spite of its drawbacks.

The cUAC/20 has a range of 414 meters fully skilled; that's solidly mid-range. And the MCII-B has a cool-down quirk for it. It would be pretty comfortable in QP.

All that being said, I'm not against the idea of allowing all 20-class ACs to fire without ghost heat. We have dual HGauss already and, frankly, it's so much better than twin AC/20 even with the drawbacks that I don't know why the HSL hasn't already been raised besides PGI not really understanding what makes HGauss good and what makes AC/20 suck. My main gripe is less that 'Mechs will be good with dual UAC/20 and more that the IS one is in way rougher shape due to being so short-ranged versus the Clan one, which further compounds the pain jams inflict on the user.

Edited by Y E O N N E, 14 May 2019 - 04:56 PM.

[panzer1b]

Honestly, the only mech ive seen thusfar that can do dual UAC20s well is the hunch2c, and thats purely because there is no other build on that mech that can spit out 80 damage in under 1 second (discounting jams). Otherwise its insanely hot, low on ammo, and sluggish.

MCII-B with dual UAC20 would be meh at best, and if you really want to play that range bracket (sub 300m), you bring 2 UAC10 and 1 UAC20 which is far less hamstrung past brawl ranges and still has the scary 80 damage per exposure aspect there. Yes dual 20s can run more secondary weapons, but the only thing that makes any sense is a PPC, and that is way too hot to run alongside the 2 20s reliably. Lasers and missiles are pointless on that mech (1-2 hardpoints, better off just taking extra ammo or DHS or engine rating, hell even AMS is more useful), and the 2x5+2x10 build is just too versatile, has better sustained DPS, isnt screwed outside of short ranges, and even if it still does dmg at 600m its velocity makes anything beyond 300 quenstionable (unless its a direcow).

What makes the 2x5+2x10 build so powerful right now is the combination of insane burst and sustained DPS, coupled with a very generous range allowance. The last aspect, range, is arguably why i dont find IS UAC10s to be as effective (nevermind the weight). Damage will spread around period (2 vs 3 round burst is just as all over the place imo, only single shot vs burst makes a difference), so if it does, may as well get much better range out of the deal (easily fights at 800m).

Not that i wouldnt welcome such a quirk (it byfar wont displace the meta builds by any means), but at least it would give people some less meta choices that arent completely useless (UAC20s are really really bad imo right now, but at least itd be something different to play).

[Khobai]

Giving the MCII a UAC20 quirk is a classic example of misusing quirks

UAC20s are bad.

But you dont give one of the best mechs in the game a UAC20 quirk to make UAC20s better.

Instead you actually make UAC20s better.

UAC20 should be the single most devastating brawling weapon in the game, bar none. The fact its not illustrates exactly whats wrong with the weapon... when you see something with a UAC20 you should be somewhere between concerned and terrified of getting inside its range. When you see something with two UAC20s you should !@#$ your pants in complete abject terror. The hunchback IIC takes down assault mechs twice its size in tabletop... its one of the scariest mechs you can fight IMO; especially in an urban environment. Something obviously got lost in translation to MWO.

They need to significantly reduce the jam rate on the UAC20 to increase its consistency so it can compete better with the consistency of UAC5/UAC10. Although personally I would rather see all UACs redone so they no longer jam at all, because RNG jamming feels awful. Theres other ways to balance regular ACs vs UACs besides making UACs jam constantly. You give regular ACs higher damage per shot, faster velocity, and longer range. And you give UACs better dps. You make it a tradeoff so theres a reason to use both depending on what range band youre building your mech for. CACs would have a purpose then too.

Edited by Khobai, 14 May 2019 - 05:18 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

Not slow at all.

Define slow?

Cause 64 KPH is kinda slow. Considering that you can get off with 5 tons of ammo to a hunchback IIC with 2x UAC20 at 75 KPH, that still pretty faster.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

Being less-good than the best build isn't a reason to give it quirks to make this other build good. It would be flatly superior to the Boiler with such an HSL quirk, which kinda defeats the purpose of giving the Boiler said quirk: to give it a unique ability that makes it worth considering in spite of its drawbacks.

I'm not really disagreeing with you. But considering SNV-A as a whole, it probably needs its own thing than just a UAC20 boat. I mean it's also competing with other variants, I'd rather it's actually better with other ballistics as well.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

The cUAC/20 has a range of 414 meters fully skilled; that's solidly mid-range. And the MCII-B has a cool-down quirk for it. It would be pretty comfortable in QP.

And that would be nice, really nice. That being said, it would make sense to remove the quirk once the HSL quirk has been added.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

All that being said, I'm not against the idea of allowing all 20-class ACs to fire without ghost heat. We have dual HGauss already and, frankly, it's so much better than twin AC/20 even with the drawbacks that I don't know why the HSL hasn't already been raised besides PGI not really understanding what makes HGauss good and what makes AC/20 suck. My main gripe is less that 'Mechs will be good with dual UAC/20 and more that the IS one is in way rougher shape due to being so short-ranged versus the Clan one, which further compounds the pain jams inflict on the user.

YES THANK YOU.

Either limit HGR HSL to 1, or buff AC20s HSL to 2.

Just to be clear, I ain't pushing the quirk for MCII. I am however willing to discuss the possibility.

[justcallme A S H]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

Define slow?

Cause 64 KPH is kinda slow. Considering that you can get off with 5 tons of ammo to a hunchback IIC with 2x UAC20 at 75 KPH, that still pretty faster.

64km/h is slow for an Assault? Wut? That's plenty for QP. Sub 58km/h is when things start to become a problem.

As for the HBIIC / UAC20? It is extremely hot because it has no heatsinks. Once you heat up you are outta the fight for a good 30 seconds.

Run a UAC20 MCIIB like THIS and you've got stupid DPS, 7T ammo and great hitboxes. If that mech had +1 for UAC20 it would be absolutely ridiculous. The SNV-BR gets it and thats fine because it's mounts and mobilty are extremely sub-par so the mech doesn't over perform at all even with the quirk.

This is truly a silly discussion - to be even thinking about something that would make a chassis overpowered is not OK.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 14 May 2019 - 05:44 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

Define slow?

Cause 64 KPH is kinda slow. Considering that you can get off with 5 tons of ammo to a hunchback IIC with 2x UAC20 at 75 KPH, that still pretty faster.

Consider the weight class. Most Mediums tend to run above 81 kph and only gunbags like the VGL, BSW, and sometimes the SHD are the exception. The HBK is total glass compared to those with rubbish agility; it's not a good gunbag.

By contrast, most Assaults running in the 60s are considered fast. 70s is damn fast. The Boiler caps out at 58 without tweak, the Nightstar, too, and the latter has a toughter time reaching that.

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I'm not really disagreeing with you. But considering SNV-A as a whole, it probably needs its own thing than just a UAC20 boat. I mean it's also competing with other variants, I'd rather it's actually better with other ballistics as well.

SNV-A is the missile boat. SNV-BR is the UAC/20 boat. Honestly, the SNV-BR and A have their niches. It's the 1, 2, B, and C that could use more differentiation.

Also the NSR still needs help.

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And that would be nice, really nice. That being said, it would make sense to remove the quirk once the HSL quirk has been added.

Sure, but I still think the MCII-B doesn't deserve this quirk simply because it's not actually lacking anywhere to need it. Quirks aren't just for flavor, they are also for balance, and the MCII-B is currently one of the measuring sticks for defining the upper limit of performance. It doesn't need a quirk, alternative weapons just need to be not-garbage.

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YES THANK YOU.

Either limit HGR HSL to 1, or buff AC20s HSL to 2.

Just to be clear, I ain't pushing the quirk for MCII. I am however willing to discuss the possibility.

To be clear myself, I don't think 2HGR is too good, I think it's just fine. I'm just saying that the alternative heavy-weight weapons are terrible. All of them. LB-20X aren't good outside of Solaris and the rest aren't good without considerable quirks. Lots of quirks. Range is always a problem on IS 20s, then there's the velocity and jam problems for everybody, and then there's trying to just take one on 'Mechs that don't really have any good hardpoints to supplement it except for another AC/20.

[Khobai]

you cant let the madcat mk2 run two UAC20s without letting every mech run two UAC20s. otherwise the madcat mk2 gets better while other mech stays the same. is it really necessary to make the madcat mk2 better? nope...

but I also dont think raising the UAC20 ghost heat limit for all mechs is a good solution either. Because then you still end up with a x2 UAC20 madcat mk2 even if other mechs can also run x2 UAC20. I dont think thats a good idea.

Id rather see the UAC20 get its jam chance significantly reduced so its viable as just a one off weapon. With only a select few mechs like the hunchback IIC getting the +1 UAC20 HSL.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

To be clear myself, I don't think 2HGR is too good, I think it's just fine

HGR suffers from the similar problem of not being good as a one off weapon though. You shouldnt have to take two of a weapon for it to be viable.

If anything HGR needs a huge buff but also needs a ghost heat limit of 2. That would give you the option of just using one HGR and having it be viable or using x2 HGR and having to eat a minor (but fair since HGR would be buffed overall) heat penalty.

Edited by Khobai, 14 May 2019 - 06:08 PM.

[FupDup]

The jam chance of the UAC/20 is the same as the UAC 2/5/10 of the same faction. The difference is jam duration being super long (7.5 seconds) plus velocity and heat issues.

[The6thMessenger]

justcallme A S H, on 14 May 2019 - 05:43 PM, said:

64km/h is slow for an Assault? Wut? That's plenty for QP. Sub 58km/h is when things start to become a problem.

Considering that by contrast, the HBK-IIC could still better keep up with the team. I guess it's a matter of context.

justcallme A S H, on 14 May 2019 - 05:43 PM, said:

This is truly a silly discussion - to be even thinking about something that would make a chassis overpowered is not OK.

Kinda the point of discussion is to discuss, such as if it's overpowered or not. Coming here with an already close mind is your problem, don't make it ours.

Also Cunningham's Law. I mean consider that what the thread actually asks if MCII-B would make a new meta by having 2x UAC20 build w/o GH, it says nothing about my position of whether I want this or not. And now we are tackling the weakness of the AC20 family rather than the OPness of MCII.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

Consider the weight class. Most Mediums tend to run above 81 kph and only gunbags like the VGL, BSW, and sometimes the SHD are the exception. The HBK is total glass compared to those with rubbish agility; it's not a good gunbag.

By contrast, most Assaults running in the 60s are considered fast. 70s is damn fast. The Boiler caps out at 58 without tweak, the Nightstar, too, and the latter has a toughter time reaching that.

Well, here's the thing, HBKs at 75 KPH could still keep up with the team better than a 64 KPH could, and considering the acceleration and decelleration rates, as well as smaller hitboxes, I wager that the forward speed is less of a factor in peeking in and out of cover, so that must be out of the discussion.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

SNV-A is the missile boat. SNV-BR is the UAC/20 boat. Honestly, the SNV-BR and A have their niches. It's the 1, 2, B, and C that could use more differentiation.

Also the NSR still needs help.

Well, yeah. But considering that SNVA is the missile-boat, that it could boat various missiles, limiting SNV-BR to 2x UAC20 build isn't that much.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

Sure, but I still think the MCII-B doesn't deserve this quirk simply because it's not actually lacking anywhere to need it. Quirks aren't just for flavor, they are also for balance, and the MCII-B is currently one of the measuring sticks for defining the upper limit of performance. It doesn't need a quirk, alternative weapons just need to be not-garbage.

Then I agree. That being said, it would probably serve the AC20 family better to have one more GH -- and quite possibly the other ACs for differentiation like AC10-family shooting 3 before GH (4 for IS).

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

To be clear myself, I don't think 2HGR is too good, I think it's just fine. I'm just saying that the alternative heavy-weight weapons are terrible. All of them. LB-20X aren't good outside of Solaris and the rest aren't good without considerable quirks. Lots of quirks. Range is always a problem on IS 20s, then there's the velocity and jam problems for everybody, and then there's trying to just take one on 'Mechs that don't really have any good hardpoints to supplement it except for another AC/20.

Never said that HGR x2 is too good either, I just said either make HGR fire only 1, or increase AC20 to fire 2 before ghost-heat. It's a matter of competing weapons.

But you know what, I agree. The other heavy ballistics like AC10s and AC20s need a bit of love, some way. If they need quirks to be good, perhaps just eliminate the quirks and have a baseline buff.

FupDup, on 14 May 2019 - 06:05 PM, said:

The jam chance of the UAC/20 is the same as the UAC 2/5/10 of the same faction. The difference is jam duration being super long (7.5 seconds) plus velocity and heat issues.

Yeah. I'm okay with the jam-rates, but it's the jam duration that irks me, especially when it jams twice in a row.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 May 2019 - 06:17 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 14 May 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

you cant let the madcat mk2 run two UAC20s without letting every mech run two UAC20s. otherwise the madcat mk2 gets better while other mech stays the same. is it really necessary to make the madcat mk2 better? nope...

Yes.

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but I also dont think raising the UAC20 ghost heat limit for all mechs is a good solution either. Because then you still end up with a x2 UAC20 madcat mk2 even if other mechs can also run x2 UAC20. I dont think thats a good idea.

Yes and no. That's where the quirks come in; HSL+1 is not the only quirk in the toolbox; the Boiler getting a heat gen quirk on ballistics and then another on cUAC/20, maybe even a jam chance quirk, would make it way better than the MCII at it.

Extreme? Maybe, but then again it's an SNV-BR; this is the one thing it's inherently great at and it's got its drawbacks.

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Id rather see the UAC20 get its jam chance significantly reduced so its viable as just a one off weapon. With only a select few mechs like the hunchback IIC getting the +1 UAC20 HSL.

Maybe. typically feel that the Clan one is light enough and has enough range that it can work with other UACs, so it doesn't strictly need to be able to fire 2. The IS one is a short-range f*ckstick that will only ever be taken on 'Mechs that are either really slow or really squishy, so being able to fire 2 is more important to making it worthwhile in either case even if the jam duration is less punishing (which, incidentally, would also make it better as a single weapon with supplements).

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HGR suffers from the similar problem of not being good as a one off weapon though. You shouldnt have to take two of a weapon for it to be viable.

If anything HGR needs a huge buff but also needs a ghost heat limit of 2. That would give you the option of just using one HGR and having it be viable or using x2 HGR and having to eat a minor (but fair since HGR would be buffed overall) heat penalty.

One HGR is plenty viable. Take one on a MAD-BH2, MAD-5M, BNC-3S, AS7, FNR-WR, RGH-2A, etc. It works great. Yes, there are dual HGR options that also work great, but IMHO those are the IS equalizer to things like the MCII-DS and MCII-B. Not the same thing, doesn't have to be, still wrecks face.

I'm not interested in entertaining the option of nerfing it down to 1.

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:

Well, here's the thing, HBKs at 75 KPH could still keep up with the team better than a 64 KPH could, and considering the acceleration and decelleration rates, as well as smaller hitboxes, I wager that the forward speed is less of a factor in peeking in and out of cover, so that must be out of the discussion.

It's not out, though, because the speed is what lets you take the flanking positions that Mediums are strongest in. If you are a slow Medium, your only reliable option is to stay with the team. If your team takes a crap position? Weeeeellllllllllllll...

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Well, yeah. But considering that SNVA is the missile-boat, that it could boat various missiles, limiting SNV-BR to 2x UAC20 build isn't that much.

Wasn't my point so much as noting that it looked like you made a typo there referring to the SNV-A. I don't disagree that the BR should be able to run other ballistics, but that's really neither here nor there for this discussion.

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Then I agree. That being said, it would probably serve the AC20 family better to have one more GH -- and quite possibly the other ACs.

Adding GH to the AC/5 and UAC/5 family was always a junk move by PGI considering the drawbacks to taking 5+. The IS UAC/10 needs its HSL bumped up by 1 to offer a proper alternative to Clan 2x10+2x5 UAC boating.

[The6thMessenger]

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:

It's not out, though, because the speed is what lets you take the flanking positions that Mediums are strongest in. If you are a slow Medium, your only reliable option is to stay with the team. If your team takes a crap position? Weeeeellllllllllllll...

I agree. But it's not slow, just not fast enough.

I agree that 2x UAC20 MCII-B is good in comparison though.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:

Wasn't my point so much as noting that it looked like you made a typo there referring to the SNV-A. I don't disagree that the BR should be able to run other ballistics, but that's really neither here nor there for this discussion.

I agree. But then if BR has it's own problems, maybe it's not such a good place to compare MCII with.

Y E O N N E, on 14 May 2019 - 06:18 PM, said:

Adding GH to the AC/5 and UAC/5 family was always a junk move by PGI considering the drawbacks to taking 5+. The IS UAC/10 needs its HSL bumped up by 1 to offer a proper alternative to Clan 2x10+2x5 UAC boating.

Yes, I ******* agree.

Khobai, on 14 May 2019 - 06:02 PM, said:

HGR suffers from the similar problem of not being good as a one off weapon though. You shouldnt have to take two of a weapon for it to be viable.

If anything HGR needs a huge buff but also needs a ghost heat limit of 2. That would give you the option of just using one HGR and having it be viable or using x2 HGR and having to eat a minor (but fair since HGR would be buffed overall) heat penalty.

Eh, well, I don't disagree with the HGR GH to 1 so firing 2 would at least have some semblance of heat, even if small. But under the pretense of a single HGR not good, I disagree with it.

It's a far-out build if you could get it on something like a HBK-GI, granted it has quirks, but that's pretty much many of IS weapons, and mechs that gladly oblige.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

I agree. But it's not slow, just not fast enough.

Not being fast enough is the same thing being slow, especially in a tactical/strategic sense where that relative difference is exactly what you are looking at.

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I agree. But then if BR has it's own problems, maybe it's not such a good place to compare MCII with.

The MCII-B vs. Boiler comparison is happening simply because the MCII-B would immediately be better if it got the HSL quirk, which is a problem if we stick to the original topic of the thread and ask "why not do this" about it. That's all.

[Security Blanket]

Of all the mechs that mount dual uac20s stock, the one most empowered by a hsl quirk would probably be the maddog bandit.

[FupDup]

Security Blanket, on 14 May 2019 - 07:03 PM, said:

Of all the mechs that mount dual uac20s stock, the one most empowered by a hsl quirk would probably be the maddog bandit.

Even with fully stripping both arms and some of the legs you'll only get 5 tons of ammo, meaning you get 20 single-fire shots or 10 double-taps. MCII-B would laugh it out of town.