84 replies to this topic

[FRAGTAST1C]

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

Why would i intercept enemies 100m behind me? I can just... turn to shoot? 100m is point blank dude. The "interception" phase has passed.

Exactly. You can turn and shoot but NOBODY turns around to shoot at enemies behind them. That's the problem.

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

In fact, 300m is kinda short range as well. Which is my main point. It's not difficult to remain something like 300 - 500m away from the main bulk of your team unless there's a pebkac issue. If an enemy light engages you, it'll be well within firing range of a number of your allies (assuming they have line of sight on you), making it a free kill unless ALL of them can't aim at all. Considering lights hug their prey as closely as possible to abuse the assault's low torso twist speed, you being in line of sight of your allies means the light is probably in line of sight as well.

Like I said, NOBODY turns around to do it. They'd rather keep rotating without firing at anything than turn around and shoot at enemies directly behind them.

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

Nascar also normally happens around central structures. There's no "long way" or "short way" because lights are the ones normally in front and they generally need to get to knife fighting range to kill straggling assaults. No one with half a brain is gonna nascar around the lowest level of hpg or canyon for example. You just go around the structure, using it for cover.

If you cut across the centre, then you're taking the shortest route to cut into the heart of the enemies. Again which only a few do on very, very rare occasions. They'd rather keep going round and round.

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

You're kinda grasping at straws here. Problem comes when the rear end of the nascar does something incredibly stupid like breaking line of sight with teammates like taking a stroll in the canyon ditch, go tunnel alone on crimson, tunnel on mining or camping at hpg gates when the nascar moves around. Or going basement. That's when they get reamed by lights because none of their teammates can even fire off shots of opportunity because there's zero line of sight.

Can you tell me if the rear end of the NASCAR actually has LOS or not on the enemies at the head of the NASCAR that you're spearheading? There's a stream of Mech-Racers ahead blocking LOS, they don't look at the mini-map to check where the enemies, they hope that the enemies will be around the next corner and the next corner and the next corner and so on.... How is it that you suddenly changed the subject to assaults moving to the tunnel or the basement when we're talking about NASCAR and the damage it does to your biggest firepower?

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 01:22 AM, said:

Nascar is generally ********, don't get me wrong. But it's not as ******** as pilots who can't figure out how to deal with it. Nascar is actually pretty good on certain maps like hpg because of the ramps. As most mechs are right-side strong side, the angle of the ramps means a leftward counter-nascar movement forces the defender to expose almost their whole mech to trade with the nascar team. The nascar team only has to expose half their mechs or less. Assuming equal skill level, the nascar wins counter-nascar on that map unless the counter nascar team takes top. There's a reason why so many people nascar on that map and/or go for a top push and hold.

Actually, on HPG, people would go for the top, secure it and drop down after having done the damage. Then they take the next ramp, go to the top, do damage and drop down. The cycle continues. This will help win the fight if you're accurate enough but the time spent dropping down and climbing the ramp again is a bad loss of team DPS. Again, if the other team does the same thing, it comes down to who wastes less time in not shooting. But if the other team doesn't get intimidated and stands their ground, they have a massive advantage. The Assaults and Heavies hold the top and fire down on you and push you back down the ramp while their skirmishers kill off your tail-enders one-by-one.

Just to be clear, NASCAR works only if the Assaults start it and the entire team doesn't waste time making huge circles. Even then, generally speaking, counter-NASCAR is the way to go 'cause the team will setup a firing line and the NASCAR team will be facing down the barrel one after the other.

[GuardDogg]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2019 - 03:26 AM, said:

Cool story again bro. Except your monthly W/L was over 1.0 like ... once in 3+ years.

That wasn't important then.

[justcallme A S H]

GuardDogg, on 21 May 2019 - 06:19 AM, said:

That wasn't important then.

lol.

Don't even go there.

If you don't crack a WLR of 1.0 - there is a lot to be desired about everything you do in MWO.

[GuardDogg]

justcallme A S H, on 21 May 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

lol.

Don't even go there.

If you don't crack a WLR of 1.0 - there is a lot to be desired about everything you do in MWO.

:-)

Those days, didn't have stats. Since stats are now important, so in QP, that Nascar is important. You of all people know that. If Nascar was taken away, that will eff you guys up so bad, that your so called match score will will not be over 500+. I have noticed that match score is now important after that one thread with you and I. I now reach over 300-400, most of the time. Doing so, is do not worry about other team mates, only yourself "Pug", along side team mates, and call them potatoes at same time. Never bring assault mechs in QP, because nascar is the thing, and lights will swing behind you, and no one couldn't care about you. Because everyone is a terrible assault pilot even at 40kph (yeah, I am laughing at that), that even 55kph is a disaster speed in QP, and friendly lights/mediums are way out in front stretching the line. Because it is always the same maneuver. "Center", then "Nascar", even on skirmish rounds. No one has the brains to think, so it is only "Center, Nascar", "Center, Nascar", and HGP.."Center, Top,", ....Collective mining, "Top, Center". So while this is happening, apposing team is doing the same thing. So, if any one brings up a thought/plan. Their will be a lot of disagreement, because will eff everyone up if not going center, or top, and nascar.

Edited by GuardDogg, 21 May 2019 - 07:04 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

GuardDogg, on 21 May 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

Those days, didn't have stats. Since stats are now important, so in QP, that Nascar is important. You of all people know that. If Nascar was taken away, that will eff you guys up so bad, that your so called match score will will not be over 500+.

I mean unlike me and Ash you are such a great commander/tactician/player, surely you won't have a problem joining/making a comp team and blitzing a WorldChamp with victories over EmP, EON, etc. Tourney matches rarely have any nascar after all, so we can't possibly be good there without it, right?

[McGoat]

GuardDogg, on 21 May 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

Since stats are now important, so in QP, that Nascar is important. You of all people know that. If Nascar was taken away, that will eff you guys up so bad, that your so called match score will will not be over 500+. I have noticed that match score is now important after that one thread with you and I.

What? This is just... Weak.

GuardDogg, on 21 May 2019 - 07:00 AM, said:

Never bring assault mechs in QP, because nascar is the thing, and lights will swing behind you, and no one couldn't care about you. Because everyone is a terrible assault pilot even at 40kph (yeah, I am laughing at that), that even 55kph is a disaster speed in QP, and friendly lights/mediums are way out in front stretching the line. Because it is always the same maneuver. "Center", then "Nascar", even on skirmish rounds. No one has the brains to think, so it is only "Center, Nascar", "Center, Nascar", and HGP.."Center, Top,", ....Collective mining, "Top, Center". So while this is happening, apposing team is doing the same thing. So, if any one brings up a thought/plan. Their will be a lot of disagreement, because will eff everyone up if not going center, or top, and nascar.

Again, what? I have not played much QP this month because it has frustrated me and that's no fun. However, all but one of my matches have been in an assault in soloQ and i'm doing just fine. Yes, rotatotornado can really suck. Aim, understanding the map layout / knowing where to expect the enemy, greatly mitigates these issues.

The nature of "nascar" has been discussed over and over, if you haven't gotten to a point to where you can have an impact even during the worst of rotations then there isn't much anyone can do to help you.

[GuardDogg]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

I mean unlike me and Ash you are such a great commander/tactician/player, surely you won't have a problem joining/making a comp team and blitzing a WorldChamp with victories over EmP, EON, etc. Tourney matches rarely have any nascar after all, so we can't possibly be good there without it, right?

Tourney matches are way off from QP. Tourney has people using tactics, mics/headsets. Never been in them, but I am sure their is planning in those. And in the end, no match score in those. I dunno.

Edited by GuardDogg, 21 May 2019 - 07:58 AM.

[GuardDogg]

McGoat, on 21 May 2019 - 07:44 AM, said:

What? This is just... Weak.

Yes, it is. When making a post, people will look at your stats, and if your match score is under 200, you are a crappy pilot. Have no right to make such post of a problem when you suck. I have never looked at match score, or even my stats until last month. It is embarrassing, humiliating for a guy who played since MWO was beta and trained pilots in MW4 (formations, maneuver your mechs one on one with enemy, and other), even hosted a server for circle of death matches, and players will watch, take turns to fight with one other pilot. Since stats are important MWO, it comes in the form of Nascaring in QP.

Edited by GuardDogg, 21 May 2019 - 07:58 AM.

[McGoat]

GuardDogg, on 21 May 2019 - 07:57 AM, said:

Yes, it is. When making a post, people will look at your stats, and if your match score is under 200, you are a crappy pilot. Have no right to make such post of a problem when you suck. I have never looked at match score, or even my stats until last month. It is embarrassing, humiliating for a guy who played since MWO was beta and trained pilots in MW4 (formations, maneuver your mechs one on one with enemy, and other), even hosted a server for circle of death matches, and players will watch, take turns to fight with one other pilot. Since stats are important MWO, it comes in the form of Nascaring in QP.

Not what I was saying. Heh.

I played MW4, in many leagues over the years. Stats "mattered" there too.

There is no getting around being a bad player and being called out for things you say. It is what it is, and it is that way pretty much in anything competitive.

If anything it's a reason to get better.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

For those of you just tuning in to yet another NASCAR thread, we've got all the usual points (from loadouts favoring the right side to map design), taunts (flanking right? apparently you're a worthless coward), denials, and recriminations from all the usual posters.

And of course it all devolved into an epeen, stat-shaming debauch (If someone's stats suck, and they agree with you, does that make you wrong?).

And, as per usual, nothing has changed. NASCAR still sucks almost as much as teammates who can't hold their own during one.

See you in the next NASCAR thread, everyone!

Edited by Mister Glitchdragon, 21 May 2019 - 08:28 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

GuardDogg, on 21 May 2019 - 07:47 AM, said:

Tourney matches are way off from QP. Tourney has people using tactics, mics/headsets. Never been in them, but I am sure their is planning in those. And in the end, no match score in those. I dunno.

Sigh ...

[PhoenixFire55]

Mister Glitchdragon, on 21 May 2019 - 08:19 AM, said:

And of course it all devolved into an epeen, stat-shaming debauch (If someone's stats suck, and they agree with you, does that make you wrong?).

"Shaming" his stats has nothing to do with the point he is trying to make tho. He claims he takes command and usually wins games, or took command and usually won games, doesn't matter ... his stats clearly display he didn't win games, and actually lost more than he won. I.e. he simply lies. And since he bases his further arguments on these lies, then his further arguments are quite frankly BS.

[Gilgamecc]

Wil McCullough, on 20 May 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

If assault pilots need a firing line to deter a few lights, they already lost the match beforw they dropped. Sorry. Because that's potato piloting right there. With the firepower they EACH pack, they just need to, i don't know, shoot the buggers. Sweep the legs. Wallop a shot at any part of their torso. Something. Even shooting in the direction of the light mech and not connecting can deter the guy.

There's so many things the pilot can do. Watch for the common angles lights come in while at the same time moving towards their team. Throw up a uav if **** gets hairy. Say something on comms. Press r to lock the mech so teammates can see it. Use the command wheel to ask for help. Take a path that makes lights have to cross large amounts of open territory to get to you. Stay close to things you can put your back up against.

This is a thinking man's shooter. Bad fatties should try to use the box between their heads to think.of ways to prevent lights from making them a meal instead of moaning when they get caught alone and in close range. If that happens, you're probably already dead. Just need to prevent that circumstance from happening. I played assaults and it's not frigging rocket science.

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2019 - 03:17 AM, said:

I'm not gonna argue about any sort of tactics, since tactics don't exist in PUGs.

I will just emphasize one thing ... in a PUG, you generally have no clue how good/bad other 11 players on your team are. So, you take an educated guess based on their early match behavior. Personally if I see an assault pilot that presses W and isn't afraid to go shoot the enemy by himself, isn't afraid to push and take damage, then I'll stick with him in whatever mech I'm piloting and we'll push together. But if I see an assault standing behind teammates and generally running away from the enemy rather then towards them, then I'll nascar away from him all day, since he is most likely utterly useless anyway.

You simply can't generalize these things. When you got an organized group then obviously you won't nascar away from your assaults, for different reasons, including the fact that your organized assaults won't let themselves get nascared away from. But when you are playing with random people, then it is very likely that staying with your assaults instead of nascaring is actually a totally wrong tactical choice, because those assaults piloted by random people can very well be useless to begin with. And the better you are yourself as a pilot, the more important your survival becomes, and the less important the survival of an average teammate is. Its harsh but true.

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2019 - 03:17 AM, said:

I'm not gonna argue about any sort of tactics, since tactics don't exist in PUGs.

I will just emphasize one thing ... in a PUG, you generally have no clue how good/bad other 11 players on your team are. So, you take an educated guess based on their early match behavior. Personally if I see an assault pilot that presses W and isn't afraid to go shoot the enemy by himself, isn't afraid to push and take damage, then I'll stick with him in whatever mech I'm piloting and we'll push together. But if I see an assault standing behind teammates and generally running away from the enemy rather then towards them, then I'll nascar away from him all day, since he is most likely utterly useless anyway.

You simply can't generalize these things. When you got an organized group then obviously you won't nascar away from your assaults, for different reasons, including the fact that your organized assaults won't let themselves get nascared away from. But when you are playing with random people, then it is very likely that staying with your assaults instead of nascaring is actually a totally wrong tactical choice, because those assaults piloted by random people can very well be useless to begin with. And the better you are yourself as a pilot, the more important your survival becomes, and the less important the survival of an average teammate is. Its harsh but true.

Looks like your weak reading comprehension is only matched by your lack of tactical acumen.

Check this out. Time in battle for this mech was under two minutes twenty seconds. Yet it pulled top damage and was wasted in the process because only the last couple of mechs in the convoy realized that killing enemy mechs as fast as possible might involve turning to fire at them.

When a lance of enemies falls in a hundred or two hundred or three hundred meters behind the entire body of the team, and the team doesn't bother to spend the ammo and heat shooting them to death for their insolence, what happens is that the large mechs get inevitably fucced because there is no way for one or two mechs to prevent backshots from four or five enemies.

Look at the time and damage. That wouldn't be possible except for the fact that a large mass of enemy mechs delivered themselves to the team almost as soon as the match started. We could have loligagged those nerds with their own fetid panties in a matter of one minute and then spent the rest of the match laughing while the 7-8 surviving enemies tried to stop twelve of us from picking them apart at our leisure.

You 'always run as fast as possible forever and never never never be a tactically proficient team player who understands how to fight in a vague semblance of a formation' guys are idiots. If you won't screen for your team's position and maneuvers, and you won't wheel to face and fire at the direction the enemy is firing from, you are throwing matches for your own stupid ego and dipshit FPS-level playstyle.

Decent players would never try to thoughtlessly defend the practice of going 'lol fucc five mechs on my team I don't wanna get shot at lololololo i am very smrt'.

[Gilgamecc]

justcallme A S H, on 21 May 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

lol.

Don't even go there.

If you don't crack a WLR of 1.0 - there is a lot to be desired about everything you do in MWO.

QP W/L stats mean ****

[GuardDogg]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 May 2019 - 08:56 AM, said:

Sigh ...

I got your point, Why would I want to join/make a comp team. I have no time, patience to be in em. I am a solo guy now. All the good guys are gone, and I am left with many A-holes now, I have to babysit.

Edited by GuardDogg, 21 May 2019 - 04:26 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Gilgamecc, on 21 May 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

snip

You realize you're talking to a 99th percentile player (phoenixfire) and a retired 95th percentile player (me) right?

Also funny how you talk about reading comprehension, then accuse me of defending nascar. Once again, let me point out that i think nascar is stupid but people who can't figure out how to deal with it are even more so.

edit: cleanup. also on a side note, 600 damage isn't exactly uncommon to me. i could pull 1k damage scores in qp like 1 out of 10 games. as a better player than i was, i'm sure phoenixfire wouldn't be impressed with 600 damage "top damage" either. especially not in a lurmboat stalker.

edit 2: i notice you took damage from ac5s and uac5s. those are normally found on heavier mechs, not leading nascar mechs. you also died in a ditch on canyon, which means not only did their lights snack on you, their heavies actually found you as well and your teammates couldn't help you because you were *drumroll* in a ditch.

@fragtastic, see? this is exactly what i was talking about when i was talking about people being responsible for getting themselves into a **** situation then blaming the nascar. i even mentioned this exact scenario.

Edited by Wil McCullough, 21 May 2019 - 05:03 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2019 - 04:44 AM, said:

Exactly. You can turn and shoot but NOBODY turns around to shoot at enemies behind them. That's the problem.

if your teammates don't react to enemies 100m behind them, nascar isn't a problem. the problem is brain death. lol.

Quote

Can you tell me if the rear end of the NASCAR actually has LOS or not on the enemies at the head of the NASCAR that you're spearheading? There's a stream of Mech-Racers ahead blocking LOS, they don't look at the mini-map to check where the enemies, they hope that the enemies will be around the next corner and the next corner and the next corner and so on.... How is it that you suddenly changed the subject to assaults moving to the tunnel or the basement when we're talking about NASCAR and the damage it does to your biggest firepower?

the front doesn't need los with the rear. lights normally bring up the front in nascar situations. assaults bring up the rear. heavies are normally somewhere in the middle. the assaults should have los with the heavies. in a huge nascar situation, the heavies are the ones that have to eventually make the decision whether to turn around and hold the back with the assaults, or give them up and rush on forward with the lights.

don't blame the lights for brain dead heavies.

Quote

Actually, on HPG, people would go for the top, secure it and drop down after having done the damage. Then they take the next ramp, go to the top, do damage and drop down. The cycle continues. This will help win the fight if you're accurate enough but the time spent dropping down and climbing the ramp again is a bad loss of team DPS. Again, if the other team does the same thing, it comes down to who wastes less time in not shooting. But if the other team doesn't get intimidated and stands their ground, they have a massive advantage. The Assaults and Heavies hold the top and fire down on you and push you back down the ramp while their skirmishers kill off your tail-enders one-by-one.

that's kinda silly. just hold the top man lol. you're not "wasting time not shooting" when your opponents can't shoot back without getting out-traded.

[Wil McCullough]

Gilgamecc, on 21 May 2019 - 02:04 PM, said:

QP W/L stats mean ****

it means a lot. it paints a pretty accurate picture of how much a player punches below, on or above his weight. unlike group, you can't cherry pick teammates to carry you in qp. you're one in a team of random twelve, vs another team of random twelve. your qp wlr shows how much you can effect a win, individually. especially if you hold a good wlr over a large number of games.

maintaining a sub 1.0 wlr over many games means that the player is below average in team contribution. so below average in fact, that he/she is probably CAUSING losses. in guarddogg's case, it means that for all the "commanding" he says he does that leads to wins, the figures show that just him being on your team means your team will lose more. and numbers don't lie.

[scadateck]

Someone should ask a political scientist. They can explain how freeriding on others leads to the worst collective outcome.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

@fragtastic, see? this is exactly what i was talking about when i was talking about people being responsible for getting themselves into a **** situation then blaming the nascar. i even mentioned this exact scenario.

Again, I'm not cherry picking instances where we can blame others during a NASCAR. Come on, Will. This is a team game, is it not?

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

if your teammates don't react to enemies 100m behind them, nascar isn't a problem. the problem is brain death. lol.

Here's the thing... if they turn around and attack the enemies, their teammates get further away and they die. If they continue trying to catch up with the Mech-Racers, then they die anyway. So, what do you do?

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

the front doesn't need los with the rear. lights normally bring up the front in nascar situations. assaults bring up the rear. heavies are normally somewhere in the middle. the assaults should have los with the heavies. in a huge nascar situation, the heavies are the ones that have to eventually make the decision whether to turn around and hold the back with the assaults, or give them up and rush on forward with the lights.

don't blame the lights for brain dead heavies.

I meant that if the Lights and Mediums start the NASCAR and expect the Assaults to follow, then they will not have LOS to the rear of the enemies that the Lights and Mediums are targeting. If the Assaults try to get LOS, then they lose ground further.

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

that's kinda silly. just hold the top man lol. you're not "wasting time not shooting" when your opponents can't shoot back without getting out-traded.

Again, please read what I am responding to. I'm clearly stating two ways to win HPG and one way which is more effective than the other is to take the top and push the enemies down, follow their path while maintaining superiority at the top. Basically, you've just agreed with me there and not with the NASCAR mentality.