84 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2019 - 12:05 AM, said:

Let me guess... rather than taking the shorter route, you took a wide approach leaving large gaps in your line. Your line of thinking doesn't hold water, especially when YOU are the one leading the NASCAR to chase enemies 300m away but won't turn around to intercept the enemies just 100m behind you.

Talking about not holding water. Your entire post is based on a false premise. If anything you said was true then nascaring wouldnt exist in the first place, and yet somehow it does. which makes you WRONG.

And the whole point of static objectives is that you have to defend them. You cant leave gaps in your front line or your objective will get destroyed. You seem to have missed the entire point of adding gamemodes with static objectives. It would stop nascaring dead in its tracks.

Quote

You realize you're talking to a 99th percentile player (phoenixfire) and a retired 95th percentile player (me) right?

nobody cares get over yourselves.

your opinion matters no more than anybody elses when it comes to the subject of nascaring and how dumb it is. even new players can recognize its dumb.

Edited by Khobai, 21 May 2019 - 10:45 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Khobai, on 21 May 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

Talking about not holding water. Your entire post is based on a false premise. If anything you said was true then nascaring wouldnt exist in the first place, and yet somehow it does. which makes you WRONG.

Stupidity exists without the help of common sense.

[Khobai]

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2019 - 10:38 PM, said:

Stupidity exists without the help of common sense.

And yet youre still wrong. And can only resort to insults.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Khobai, on 21 May 2019 - 10:48 PM, said:

And yet youre still wrong. And can only resort to insults.

It wasn't an insult. Read the context there.

When you say that NASCAR wouldn't exist if what I said was true, then you're wrong 'cause people will do stupid things on the battlefield. Hence that statement. Again, read the context and stop playing the victim card here.

[Wil McCullough]

Im writing from mobile and don't wanna quote huge swaths of text so:

@frag
The vitriol directed towards light mechs is misplaced. Light mechs aren't initiating nascar. They're trying to hunt down enemy assaults. Nascar is initiated by heavies trying to follow the lighter mechs and hoping to get some tasty snacks. Assaults should (in qp at least) move in the direction the team is moving in. They'll definitely be among the end of the chain because some assaults are just slow as hell. That's a given. All "stop nascaring" threads keep trying to put the blame on light mechs running off when they should br blaming the heavies for running after them, not turning to support their assaults and not blaming themselves for putting themselves repeatedly in situations where they get isolated in the rear and nibbled on by lights.

You don't get stranded alone in an assault behind everyone else only because you're slow. There's the remainder of your lance that's also slow but somehow only you got left behind. Not you specifically, but this applies to a lot of nascar whiners.

@khobai
Everyone knows nascar is dumb. It really is. What's dumber is that some assault pilots can't seem to figure out how to not get destroyed by nascar. Don't afk at the start. Don't wander off alone. Watch your minimap. Don't stop to shoot if you're too far from the team. Bring uavs. Use voip. Use the chat wheel. Watch for common angles lights come from. Don't walk into or stay in spots where your teammates can't shoot at the light sniffing your bum even if they wanted to. Bring arm mounted weapons. Bring a couple of streaks. Bring a bigger engine. Learn to get circling lights into your crosshairs.

If a player just does like 2 of those things, they won't get chewed up by nascar most of the time. Instead we have lurm stalkers hiding in a ditch on canyon getting killed by heavies or assaults, then complaining about getting nascared.

And yes, my opinion and stats matter when a random bush league player directly addresses me and tries to tell me how i play (which isn't even close to being on the mark) and why i'm wrong even though he struggles with nascar and i don't. Funny.

Say, aren't you the guy who keeps trying to pass off your opinion as fact? Then disappearing when justcallsmeash calls you out on it and posts facts and figures that prove you wrong? That's you, isn't it? I don't think you should be taking the "it's like, just your opinion man" argument when you're known to do things like that, no?

Edited by Wil McCullough, 21 May 2019 - 11:43 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

Wil McCullough, on 21 May 2019 - 11:32 PM, said:

Im writing from mobile and don't wanna quote huge swaths of text so:

@frag
The vitriol directed towards light mechs is misplaced. Light mechs aren't initiating nascar. They're trying to hunt down enemy assaults. Nascar is initiated by heavies trying to follow the lighter mechs and hoping to get some tasty snacks. Assaults should (in qp at least) move in the direction the team is moving in. They'll definitely be among the end of the chain because some assaults are just slow as hell. That's a given. All "stop nascaring" threads keep trying to put the blame on light mechs running off when they should br blaming the heavies for running after them, not turning to support their assaults and not blaming themselves for putting themselves repeatedly in situations where they get isolated in the rear and nibbled on by lights.

You don't get stranded alone in an assault behind everyone else only because you're slow. There's the remainder of your lance that's also slow but somehow only you got left behind. Not you specifically, but this applies to a lot of nascar whiners.

I completely agree. I'm not against pilots in scouting mechs who go off on flanking runs or use hit-'n-run tactics. Heck, that's what I do when use my mediums and recently, decided to level up the Cipher slowly. What I'm against is the Heavies and Assaults who NASCAR. The Lights and Mediums can survive only if they skirmish (barring certain builds and play-styles of course) but when people are in a slow-moving mech, they shouldn't be NASCAR'ing at all. Instead, they should be oscillating between the left and right flanks of attack. If someone is in a brawling mech like the Orion IIC, then they can move at speed and do a lot of damage, which I'm not against. But to watch Annihilators, Dire Wolves, Fafnirs, etc., make wide circles is just....

For e.g., on Canyon, if enemies are in the low ground trying to take the ramp to the centre, then Heavies and Assaults should be shooting them from the precipice. When the enemies that survive come around from D4, then Assaults and Heavies shouldn't follow them to the low ground but instead, quickly turn around and shoot them since they're not going to be approaching in a murder-ball. It'd be like a turkey shoot. But, if only 1 Assault pilot decides to intercept them, then they can of course kill and badly damage another mech but they will get destroyed by other enemies coming through 'cause Heat is an issue as well as cooldowns.

Now, please let us not start discussing builds and consumables to counter the Heat and Cooldowns. The fact remains that NASCAR serves nothing except solo-play. This is why people don't NASCAR in any FW modes. It happens in QP 'cause the people don't either know or don't care.

[Wil McCullough]

Seems like we're both on the same page for this one!

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2019 - 07:11 PM, said:

I meant that if the Lights and Mediums start the NASCAR and expect the Assaults to follow, then they will not have LOS to the rear of the enemies that the Lights and Mediums are targeting. If the Assaults try to get LOS, then they lose ground further.

It is in fact quite frankly irrelevant how many of your mechs has LoS to each other. What matters is how many of your mechs are shooting the enemy at their optimal distance at any given point of time compared to the enemy. Assaults generally want to shoot enemy heavies and assaults @500-600m directly in front of them, at the same time lights want to shoot same heavies and assaults @100m behind them. Which means that for a team to be at its best it has to in fact separate its mobile mechs from its slow ones by nascaring them behind the enemy. That or have weapon range synergy between all mechs on the team, which will never happen in QP.

[PhoenixFire55]

Khobai, on 21 May 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

your opinion matters no more than anybody elses when it comes to the subject of nascaring and how dumb it is. even new players can recognize its dumb.

Well, you are the one who has been caught outright lieing and BS'ing people here on the forum multiple times ... so please tell us which opinions matter and which don't some more.

[FRAGTAST1C]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 May 2019 - 01:58 AM, said:

It is in fact quite frankly irrelevant how many of your mechs has LoS to each other.

It's not LOS to each other that I'm talking about. I'm referring to having very poor LOS, in fact, none at all, to the enemy mechs that your NASCAR leaders are targeting while you're in a slow Assault trying to keep up with the NASCAR.

[PhoenixFire55]

FRAGTAST1C, on 22 May 2019 - 02:14 AM, said:

... while you're in a slow Assault trying to hide away from the fight

FTFY.

[FRAGTAST1C]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 May 2019 - 02:18 AM, said:

FTFY.

Thank you, Cathy Newman.

[Rosh87]

Snowhawk, on 19 May 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

Wait…?!
Do you really say that in the time from April 2019 until May 2019 you went from Tier 5 to Tier 2?

Even if you Play like Proton or Bowser shoud this not be possible because the Standard Progress (the old Progress which we had 1 or 2 years ago) in the Tier bar is very slow. It's very easy to go from rank 5 to 4 and then the Progress is usually slower. Seems that pgi has boostet the Tier Progress and now everyone and her mother is in Tier 2 and 1. I dont want to Insult you with this post, I'm worried About other Players who are now Tier 2 or 1.

I often see Matches where 4 or 5 Players in my Team are not able to reach 100 or even 80 matchscore! There are also Tier 1 streamers who are asking: Wtf, where does the matchmaker find this People.....?

Ha ! - as the OP, I was just reading through the thread comments thus far, and was happy to see this post, from earlier on. I just wanted to confirm that yeah - it's true. The timeline for me was my buddy introduced me / demo'd the game for me when I was back in my home-state for Christmas visit, in late December 2018. I got back to Chicago in January, and got the game, on his further urging, but only played it sparingly like once a weekend with him, just doing those Cadet Bonus missions, which he advised me to do for the C-Bills, and then eventually I could buy my own "real Mech" and not be limited to the Trial ones. For the entirety of the Cadet Mission Bonus matches, I think I used the Kodiak-3 that was Trial mech back then (I fell in love with the Dakka Setup it offered, and have loved Dakka ever since, lol).

I then bought, as my first actual mech, an Annihilator-2a (the one with 6 ballistics options) and tried out the 6 AC-5 setup I'd read about here on the forum, for several games. This all happened basically between Mid-January and end of March: I played the 25 Cadet Matches, bought the Annihilator, and basically only played in group play with my buddy (both of us Tier-5 at that time), about once a week / weekend when I was off work - and even then, we'd play maybe 2 hours max and then that was it, I wasn't playing on my own time, during the week or anything.

We had another typical Mech Sunday, that first weekend of April 6th into 7th (Sat into Sunday) and then he signed off around 8-pm...but since I had off the next day too...and the mood randomly struck me, I started playing more and more - that entire night ! I stayed up and kind of marathoned MWO - and was having a crazy fun time with it. I think I actually used some steam cards I had to get MC, and then bought the Direwolf UV that day, based on feedback of it being an insane Dakka-lovers mech. I kept playing that next day, and basically went nuts with MWO, having it become my "main gaming interest" since then. Each day I would say I've played anywhere from 2-6 hours on days after I got home from work, or slightly more on days off work. So I've certainly put in my time, in terms of games / battles fought, I think ?

But yeah - I was Tier-5 (about 1/3rd of the bar filled up) that night on April-7th, when I started going "hardcore" into it - and currently (May-22nd-2019) I'm now showing just shy of "halfway" up the progress bar on Tier-2 (so I'm like 45% Tier-2 bar filled up, en route to Tier-1, I guess is how you'd describe it, in my mech garage screen) ?

* Konniving, Void Angel, and the guys in the Newcomers Forum have told me this is extremely good progress though, so I'm honored. One guy commented he's been playing for over two years, and he wasn't out of Tier-3 yet, so I take their compliments as very kind praise, and am humbled by it.

----------

One thing I'll say is that I don't think it's necessarily anything about PGI changing the scale at all, but rather that I'm legitimately playing well and having some good games. Looking back over some of the post-game screens where I took pictures with my camera to show my real-life buddy who introd' me to the game, I can see several matches with 946 damage, 775 damage, 938 damage (3 KB's, 1 Solo Kill, 3 KMDD), 1256 damage (I think this was a Direwolf match, back on that April-7th night), 1125 damage (and then I have a picture of me having just crossed into Tier-4, as of 11-pm on April 7th, so it looks like I played that night the 6th into the 7th, and finally by the evening of the 7th, when I was going to bed, I had reached Tier-4).

This general pattern has continued for me, where even at Tier-2 battles, I tend to be able to get "at least Equals Sign" as the result - even when we lose, and have even gotten "Green Arrow UP" on some losses, when I've played really good.

* looking back again to pictures from games on April-9th to April-10th (Tier-4 at that point), I seem to have rattled off a crazy streak of 1000+ damage matches (unsure of what I was playing but I think it was either Direwolf or Anni-2a, or maybe a Mauler-90 - that has 6 ballistic options, which I'd bought as my 3rd mech, I think): 1005 damage (win), 1024 damage (win), 1062 damage (win, 7 Killing Blows, 4 Solo kills, 4 KMDD, 12 components destroyed), 1154 damage (win), 1180 damage (Loss), etc... These are just examples, but this is sort of what I've been experiencing, as I've kept playing.

There are still big losses, or days (especially now up to Tier-2, where the progress has really slowed down), where I'll lose 3 or 4 matches in a row, trying to get my x2 win for a given Mech - But, even in those cases, like I said, I'm often able to have a 'good enough' match that I don't always get the "red arrow Down" at the end of the match.

--------

* further checks of my phone pics shows that I crossed into Tier-3 on April-13th, at 7:06 am - lol (as I took another photo to show my buddy). And it looks like on April-14th, at 4:57 PM, I had my biggest ever LOSS - where i recorded the following, in a Tier-3 fight: 1573 Damage (3 Killing Blow, 7 Kill Assist, 2 Solo Kill, 7 KMMD, 10 Components Destroyed)

==============

SO...overall...I'm not sure if there's a way to measure my overall stats / if the game even has such a feature, but it "feels" like I'm doing a good job in most fights, and I'm having fun with the game (which I guess is just as important), and try to enjoy the lore of the BT universe, as well as the in-game competitive nature of the battles. So...thanks for all the great feedback on this thread, and thanks for your kind words (all of you guys), as I continue to improve and enjoy reading your thoughts on my thread

[General Solo]

Khobai, on 21 May 2019 - 12:04 AM, said:

youre ignoring key differences between MWO and halo though. like mechs being comprised of multiple hitboxes each with their own health pool and most mechs in MWO having their weapons on the right side. if halo had that im sure thered be nascaring in halo too.

so yeah its true that theres multiple factors that cause nascaring in MWO. But skirmish is BY FAR the easiest of those factors to change. adding a new gamemode is way easier than eliminating the right side weapon bias on most mechs.

and if mining collective had a gamemode with static objectives you had to defend I doubt youd see nascaring. because nascaring when you have to defend a static objective almost always results in that objective getting destroyed. Incursion was PGI's attempt at such a gamemode, and I still think incursion could be salvaged, if PGI fixed the obvious problems with the gamemode.

I don't play Halo but I'm guess every one runs the same speed.
Could have something to do with
MWO players not same speed

[General Solo]

FRAGTAST1C, on 21 May 2019 - 12:05 AM, said:

Let me guess... rather than taking the shorter route, you took a wide approach leaving large gaps in your line. Your line of thinking doesn't hold water, especially when YOU are the one leading the NASCAR to chase enemies 300m away but won't turn around to intercept the enemies just 100m behind you.

That's a fail guess
Thank you
Please Try again

[General Solo]

Khobai, on 21 May 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

Talking about not holding water. Your entire post is based on a false premise. If anything you said was true then nascaring wouldnt exist in the first place, and yet somehow it does. which makes you WRONG.

And the whole point of static objectives is that you have to defend them. You cant leave gaps in your front line or your objective will get destroyed. You seem to have missed the entire point of adding gamemodes with static objectives. It would stop nascaring dead in its tracks.



nobody cares get over yourselves.

your opinion matters no more than anybody elses when it comes to the subject of nascaring and how dumb it is. even new players can recognize its dumb.

New players are not 99%, so that's a difference
People can learn from the average to bad pilots, if they wish, people have that freedoom
Its also nice having the opinions of the 99%ers to compare

I was running out of things to read now that lerm threads are like pirates, so yesterday.

Viva a La Nascar Threads

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 22 May 2019 - 05:41 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Khobai, on 21 May 2019 - 10:36 PM, said:

... snip...

And the whole point of static objectives is that you have to defend them. You cant leave gaps in your front line or your objective will get destroyed. You seem to have missed the entire point of adding gamemodes with static objectives. It would stop nascaring dead in its tracks.

.. snip

Just working on this part of your post since it is the only part that really needed to be highlighted.

Assault aka Guard base. No damage can actually be done to base.. just cap it, ie one location of Conquest...
Incursion aka Defend base. Damage objective first to win, with or w/o killing all enemies.

People nascar away.

Faction Play on non-siege maps.. Many times people will nascar, even if it means leaving their spawn points open.

All of those have static objectives, not the ONLY objectives. Then someone on the losing side comes to the boards and makes a whimpering post about it...

What has changed that will stop player's habits, or their mostly selfish habits I should say, from happening?

Edit..

Will give you this though, the difference between Siege and non-Siege modes/maps is that one mode has Defender and Attacker defined while the other mode does not have Defender/Attacker clearly defined.

On the Siege maps, if PGI allowed the gates to be opened by the defenders, even temporarily, it could open it up a bit more but would not completely remove the Defender/Attacker, except for the Attacker spawn points...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 22 May 2019 - 02:42 PM.

[Catnium]

OZHomerOZ, on 22 May 2019 - 05:37 AM, said:

New players are not 99%, so that's a difference
People can learn from the average to bad pilots, if they wish, people have that freedoom
Its also nice having the opinions of the 99%ers to compare

I was running out of things to read now that lerm threads are like pirates, so yesterday.

Viva a La Nascar Threads

Why should the opinion of the lowest % of the populous matter?

being a 1% is just a rich folks way of saying: I'm a minority...but actually no.

Edited by Catnium, 22 May 2019 - 04:54 PM.

[Robinson Crusher]

Rosh87, on 18 May 2019 - 08:36 PM, said:

Hello everyone ! (waves) // Now, I'm still relatively new to the game (my only other main posting was over in the New Player's sub-forum, where Konniving, Void, and several other kind veterans have been providing useful thoughts and feedback to my earlier questions).. That said, I've managed to play a lot of games, since starting MWO more "hardcore", and have seen myself go from Tier-5 on April-7th, to (currently) 1/2 filled up skill bar, on Tier-2. I mention this to illustrate that while my "months-in-game" are still quite low, obviously, my actual "number of games played" is high enough that I feel I've seen various trends and could make a well-informed statement here.

-------------

1.) NASCAR as a concept surprised me when I was first told about it ... the idea that this is even "a thing" in this game, puzzled me as my only other PC multiplayer experiences were in WOT and WT (tank games, basically), where Map Position was still important, of course, but there was never an idea that "now everyone will shift to the right and keep doing that for several minutes till we swap spawn points with the enemy team, effectively !. Only when I got to MWO and noticed to look for it / react to it, did I realize that it was something entirely novel to me. So, my first question / thought would be, WHY did this develop, and was it in the game since Beta, years ago, or is this something somewhat 'new" in MWO history ?

Hi. (Waves back)!! Ya, the guys in short question/ short answer were fantastic when I started back in February 2014. I'm still grateful for the patience, knowledge and insight. I had a lap top that was below recommended performance and had horrible hit registration issues until I finally got something good and my damage numbers suddenly went up by a factor of five. So I spent until 2017 in tier 5 and didn't break out of tier 4 until last year when i finally went shopping. I'm just closing in on tier one now, or would be if I wasn't still peeved about the changes to LRMs locks ruining them as a top peeking weapon.

Anyways, I believe that NASCAR started because someone developed a one-sided weapon build and then showed it was a viable concept. Use one side with all the weapons and the other to twist towards so as to absorb damage. The mechs available at the time, like the Centurion for example, favoured the right side... because the original table top designs often looked like right handed people holding a big weapon. People began corner peeking more to the right since the all-weapons-on-one-side builds favoured the right peek over the left peek. This is why this happens strongly in MWO and not so much in other games.

In tier 5 people discover how quickly you can die in MWO, fort up in assault mechs, and then hide in the back with LRMs or maybe do some ppc sniping. By mid-tiers they've learned a bit about the maps and staying alive with maneuver and positioning, so they want something faster. They still haven't mastered armour sharing, and acting in role, so they hit the throttle and leave the assaults to die... since the assaults are timid people who usually don't lead a push anyways. This is where the NASCAR people sit.

The trouble is that so many games need to be filled out with mid-tier players that higher tier players have begun to expect a NASCAR! Once it starts if you don't go with it you die... so experienced players now contribute to the rotation when it looks like enough people in quick play might be rotating right, and firing lines dissolve. Check out some old You-tuber videos. They didn't used to do that, but these days they join in and sometimes even start it when people panic about their move to the right ( because their build is a flanker and half the time you NEED to go right).

So now it happens just because people expect it... self fulfilling prophecy. The way to fix that is to educate people about good tactics. If PGI gave us just one message while we where loading into a game then it could be long enough to read something non-trivial about armour sharing or weight class roles. If you are a flanker going right, it might also help to use comms and say "this is not the start of a NASCAR - please don't follow"!

[H Seldon]

Wil McCullough, on 20 May 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

Even comparing a 50+ kph assault to 70+ kph heavy, it takes close to 3 minutes to put a 1km gap between them if they're both moving in the same direction. That seems only vaguely possible on polar. And yet, assault pilots keep moaning about being left behind as early as a minute into the match.

Nascar ia dumb as hell but bad assault pilots need to man up and admit when they goof up. Across the time i've played, i've seen more afk assaults than i can count. Followed very closely by assaults who waddle off into zimbabwe and meet a whole tribe of enemy lights. The most common qp assault though, is the one that backs up all the way into the next map just because he got scratched by a medium lasers at 500m. So he backs up to 1km away. These are the guys we're supposed to bend over backwards for?

It's not so much keeping up, it's that the enemy Lights catch up to you pretty quick. You either stop and turn slowly to fight, which means you are dead, or you keep up with the rest of the team and hope that your rear armor holds up.