119 replies to this topic

[Valdarion Silarius]

So, the same person that released the Rifleman IIC hitbox images from Outreach HPG in this thread released this fantastic video explaining the problems of the mech but how it has potential to be good. He highlights speed tweak like from what I said earlier which I think is a key feature of keeping the mech alive. Here's the video:

[Rosh87]

Arnold The Governator, on 26 May 2019 - 11:40 AM, said:

So, the same person that released the Rifleman IIC hitbox images from Outreach HPG in this thread released this fantastic video explaining the problems of the mech but how it has potential to be good. He highlights speed tweak like from what I said earlier which I think is a key feature of keeping the mech alive. Here's the video:

Thanks for this, Arnold ! It's been intriguing watching this thread (and playing the Rifle-2C since the release) and observing a lot of the issues others have mentioned here. The Dakka one seems (by far) the best - I run it with 6-UAC-2, currently, but can easily see it being great with 6 LB-2X as well. I say this because my Direwolf UltraViolence with 8-LB2x has been my most consistent damage-dealing mech, since I bought it back in early April, with over a dozen 1000-damage matches (if not more) coming from that setup (and that's on a 48.6 kmh chassis, that attracts fire like crazy).

Even having 3/4 of that firepower (6 LB2x instead of 8), suggests the potential for some great games. Unfortunately, the usefulness of the Dakka variants, seems only to highlight the 'meh'-ness of the Energy ones. The critical issues of CT weakness you highlight here remain (in all the variants) but the fact that Energy ones have to be slightly closer range to do their damage (the LB-2 or AC-2 setups can easily have full-damage-at-1000 meters / with 2000 before damage drop-off reachs Zero), means they seem arguably more "at risk / vulnerable" to that problem (than the Dakka / ballistic setups).

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I actually would agree with the overall need for more defensiveness on this Mech (across the board). As was noted, only 40 armor for the Arms (your main weapon locations) means they get blown off Very easily, and are useless for shielding. The additional fact that almost everything hits your CT (from the front or back, honestly) means you very rapidly find yourself "Cored" and 1 or 2 shots from death, after only being exposed to maybe 5 seconds of enemy fire - if that. This forces more of a stand-off engagement style, which not all the Maps even allow for (some are much smaller than others, obviously - with Game Mode and Spawn points also factoring into that dynamic).

[Valdarion Silarius]

Rosh87, on 26 May 2019 - 12:43 PM, said:

Even having 3/4 of that firepower (6 LB2x instead of 8), suggests the potential for some great games. Unfortunately, the usefulness of the Dakka variants, seems only to highlight the 'meh'-ness of the Energy ones. The critical issues of CT weakness you highlight here remain (in all the variants) but the fact that Energy ones have to be slightly closer range to do their damage (the LB-2 or AC-2 setups can easily have full-damage-at-1000 meters / with 2000 before damage drop-off reachs Zero), means they seem arguably more "at risk / vulnerable" to that problem (than the Dakka / ballistic setups).

Pretty much. I think from that BlackhawkSC video he did highlight that this mech would have been great a few years ago when clan lasers were much more powerful. Now that the meta seems to favor ballistic/missile boats over energy boats, it would be nice to see a global damage buff for both IS and Clan energy weapons. The good news is that I read out there that Paul as of lately isn't actively working on MW:O balancing anymore, but this is just a rumor but I really hope it's a true one.

[Kubernetes]

justcallme A S H, on 25 May 2019 - 11:26 AM, said:

After another 10 or so games in the Rifleman IIC ...

I'm done. I won't play them again until the hitboxes are revisited. They are not a necessarily strong mech due to engine limits so they have a good/different flavour with the quirks they have.

The issue however with the CT hitboxes as large as they are not even a player at my level is capable of making them be consistent. It is all CT, all day & I'm over it.

I didn't buy it, but it sure seems like it's impossible to miss the CT. Even when it twists away you can hit the front of the radar dish and score a CT hit. Cool looking mech, but I'm not really in the mood for another Clan glass cannon.

[RickySpanish]

Kubernetes, on 28 May 2019 - 09:45 AM, said:

I didn't buy it, but it sure seems like it's impossible to miss the CT. Even when it twists away you can hit the front of the radar dish and score a CT hit. Cool looking mech, but I'm not really in the mood for another Clan glass cannon.

I lost both arms and a side torso last night before dying. Points in agility helps a great deal, but really the arms are all you have to shield with, which is a bit tragic considering the hardpoint location. I'm two points away from having it fully skilled and despite some utterly awful games last night, it is a strong 'Mech. In the games I lost I feel like I pulled my weight and it was more a lack of team coordination issue than the 'Mech underperforming. I also think the CH/A might be the next best variant with two AC 10s and two large pulse lasers, because those lasers are torso mounted so shielding with arms isn't quite so crippling. On paper the 2 is excellent but the required face time with its AC builds is just too high, so the CH and A edge it out. The engine cap just isn't an issue though, the CT just needs a helping hand somehow.

Edited by RickySpanish, 28 May 2019 - 10:42 AM.

[Rosh87]

RickySpanish, on 28 May 2019 - 10:02 AM, said:

I lost both arms and a side torso last night before dying. Points in agility helps a great deal, but really the arms are all you have to shield with, which is a bit tragic considering the hardpoint location. I'm two points away from having it fully skilled and despite some utterly awful games last night, it is a strong 'Mech. In the games I lost I feel like I pulled my weight and it was more a lack of team coordination issue than the 'Mech underperforming. I also think the CH/4 might be the next best variant with two AC 10s and two large pulse lasers, because those lasers are torso mounted so shielding with arms isn't quite so crippling. On paper the 2 is excellent but the required face time with its AC builds is just too high, so the CH and 4 edge it out. The engine cap just isn't an issue though, the CT just needs a helping hand somehow.

I know BlackhawksSC mentions the idea of full Speed Freak / Tweak - skill bonuses, at least on the 58-kmh locked ones, as a means of making them "sort of acceptable" - but that is a bitter, BITTER pill for a Heavy Mech pilot to have to swallow .... "here, just invest a ton of Skill Points into the MOBILITY tree, on your...Heavy...Fire Support Mech....to make it viable"...ouch !!

Additionally, with its current extreme fragility, you also are going to want to invest almost entirely into the Survival Tree (Armor, Structure, Reduced Critical Hits)....and then, of course, you want your Firepower tree to be heavily invested cause you are - after all - a Heavy Mech with Fire Support role / duties...and...oh man...at this point you are almost entirely out of Points (if you even have enough for all 3 Trees). This doesn't consider the Energy Variants needing (probably) heavy investing into Cool Run in the Ops tree....or (all of them) benefiting from at least the 60% Radar Deprivation !

It just seems like a mess, at present, for most of the variants. Thankfully, the Best Ballistic One (RFL-IIC-2) can still work well - as they also tend to be the 65-kmh+ ones that are not locked to the 58-kmh Engine (actually, only this guy and the IIC-A can take the higher than 235-Rated Engines, IIRC , and that second variant only has 2 Ballistic Slots available). This sort of makes the RFL-IIC-2 by far (IMHO) the best current version of the mech, and (arguably) the only one worth consistent playing.

In retrospect - or for anyone who didn't get the Pack - I would honestly advise getting ONLY that IIC-2 when the mech becomes buyable with C-Bills, and you can have a lot of fun with it. But unless PGI makes the higher Engines slot-able on the alternative chassis types, and / or buffs the Armor / Structure / Hit Boxes, etc (as we've discussed at length in this thread), the other variations (Hero included, honestly - despite the cool Jellyfish camo pattern !) - are just not worth the pain, in using regularly.

[RickySpanish]

Rosh87, on 28 May 2019 - 10:44 AM, said:

I know BlackhawksSC mentions the idea of full Speed Freak / Tweak - skill bonuses, at least on the 58-kmh locked ones, as a means of making them "sort of acceptable" - but that is a bitter, BITTER pill for a Heavy Mech pilot to have to swallow .... "here, just invest a ton of Skill Points into the MOBILITY tree, on your...Heavy...Fire Support Mech....to make it viable"...ouch !!

Additionally, with its current extreme fragility, you also are going to want to invest almost entirely into the Survival Tree (Armor, Structure, Reduced Critical Hits)....and then, of course, you want your Firepower tree to be heavily invested cause you are - after all - a Heavy Mech with Fire Support role / duties...and...oh man...at this point you are almost entirely out of Points (if you even have enough for all 3 Trees). This doesn't consider the Energy Variants needing (probably) heavy investing into Cool Run in the Ops tree....or (all of them) benefiting from at least the 60% Radar Deprivation !

It just seems like a mess, at present, for most of the variants. Thankfully, the Best Ballistic One (RFL-IIC-2) can still work well - as they also tend to be the 65-kmh+ ones that are not locked to the 58-kmh Engine (actually, only this guy and the IIC-A can take the higher than 235-Rated Engines, IIRC , and that second variant only has 2 Ballistic Slots available). This sort of makes the RFL-IIC-2 by far (IMHO) the best current version of the mech, and (arguably) the only one worth consistent playing.

In retrospect - or for anyone who didn't get the Pack - I would honestly advise getting ONLY that IIC-2 when the mech becomes buyable with C-Bills, and you can have a lot of fun with it. But unless PGI makes the higher Engines slot-able on the alternative chassis types, and / or buffs the Armor / Structure / Hit Boxes, etc (as we've discussed at length in this thread), the other variations (Hero included, honestly - despite the cool Jellyfish camo pattern !) - are just not worth the pain, in using regularly.

I actually ignored speed twerk, because a 7% speed increase to a snail with guns is still a snail with guns. I went for the acceleration/deceleration, torso yaw, torso speed and anchor turn skills. Anything to make popping into and out of cover easier. I also didn't bother with survival at all. What's the point? ST armour is not part of the equation, so a couple of extra points for the CT and arms amounts to a single volley from your opponent. Firepower tree I did invest in heavily ofc, and I put extra points into Aux as well to gain an extra UAV, plus cool shot improvements. I have two UAVs, an arty and a coolshot, which does let the Rifleman IIC better fullfill its role as an actual fire support.

Still, that CT is more than just a great equalizer, it definitely needs saving. Missiles just absolutely ruin you.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Here are some of my best matches so far. Keep in mind the match score was a reflection of good teams and situational luck. I still stand firm with my statement that quad ER PPC's > quad cLPLs simply due to the fact that I have been getting consistently better results with ER PPC's rather than cLPL's. I think it wouldn't hurt if the base variant received something like a very small heat gen quirk for the energy based variants for better DPS. IIC-A and IIC-2 still seem like the strongest variants by far.

RFL-IIC-A (Baradul's custom build):



RFL-IIC(S) 235 XL:



RFL-IIC Quad ER PPC's 235 XL:

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 28 May 2019 - 02:32 PM.

[RickySpanish]

Arnold The Governator, on 28 May 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

Here are some of my best matches so far. Keep in mind the match score was a reflection of good teams and situational luck. I still stand firm with my statement that quad ER PPC's > quad cLPLs simply due to the fact that I have been getting consistently better results with ER PPC's rather than cLPL's. I think it wouldn't hurt if the base variant received something like a very small heat gen quirk for the energy based variants for better DPS. IIC-A and IIC-2 still seem like the strongest variants by far.

RFL-IIC-A (Baradul's custom build):



RFL-IIC(S) 235 XL:



RFL-IIC Quad ER PPC's 235 XL:

Well glad you got some good matches, I will try Quad PPCs at some point once I have the SP to rejig my tree. I think I need to move on to the CH for a bit though. It's funny how excited I was for hexa uac2 but I found triple LB-10X to be more fun on the 2. Looks wonky as F though.

[LowSubmarino]

Rifleman IIC sucks really badly. It melts super quickly, and its also very slow. You can easily destroy it with any solid build out there and you wont even loose much armor. Bad mech. Id stay away from it.

[IVeoRR]

LowSubmarino, on 28 May 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

Rifleman IIC sucks really badly. It melts super quickly, and its also very slow. You can easily destroy it with any solid build out there and you wont even loose much armor. Bad mech. Id stay away from it.

Exactly my sentiments. What a steaming pile of sh*t. I can't believe I actually spent real money on it. I need 20+ bonus nodes to address the all of the shortcomings, not just the lesser of evils, on top of the 91. Yeah it has nice hardpoints, but that's it. Huge letdown. *Also, it's so bad out of the box that I gave up on completing the Rifleman IIC events.

Edited by IVeoRR, 28 May 2019 - 06:36 PM.

[RickySpanish]

LowSubmarino, on 28 May 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

Rifleman IIC sucks really badly. It melts super quickly, and its also very slow. You can easily destroy it with any solid build out there and you wont even loose much armor. Bad mech. Id stay away from it.

Well yes if you get into a 1v1 against a Rifleman IIC then you have won the positioning game and they are toast. The trick is as the IIC pilot to not end up in a 1v1 situation, which is tough if you are used to piloting a more forgiving chassis which at the moment is basically most of them. I have found that hanging out with the Assaults and getting cheeky shots in with jump jets and hill humping while dropping UAVs and artys works rather well. I'm averaging 500 damage a match at the moment with the IIC which isn't bad. At the very least it is teaching me to play much more smartly.

[Valdarion Silarius]

LowSubmarino, on 28 May 2019 - 05:25 PM, said:

Rifleman IIC sucks really badly. It melts super quickly, and its also very slow. You can easily destroy it with any solid build out there and you wont even loose much armor. Bad mech. Id stay away from it.

I think you are either playing it wrong or you are being harshly critical. It's not a bad mech and far from DOA when it dropped, but it does need some help at the moment.

IVeoRR, on 28 May 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

Exactly my sentiments. What a steaming pile of sh*t. I can't believe I actually spent real money on it. I need 20+ bonus nodes to address the all of the shortcomings, not just the lesser of evils, on top of the 91. Yeah it has nice hardpoints, but that's it. Huge letdown. *Also, it's so bad out of the box that I gave up on completing the Rifleman IIC events.

Again, I agree that it shouldn't have to be dependent on the skill tree for optimal performance, but I think you and LowSubmarino are bashing the mech melodramatically. It's a fire support mech with the firepower of an assault and if you know how to play it properly, it can be very rewarding despite it's short comings. I think once the CT hitboxes are fixed and if the mech got a little bit of armor quirks on the arms, it will have a solid place in the clan heavy department.

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 28 May 2019 - 08:04 PM.

[Battlemaster56]

RickySpanish, on 28 May 2019 - 07:04 PM, said:

Well yes if you get into a 1v1 against a Rifleman IIC then you have won the positioning game and they are toast. The trick is as the IIC pilot to not end up in a 1v1 situation, which is tough if you are used to piloting a more forgiving chassis which at the moment is basically most of them. I have found that hanging out with the Assaults and getting cheeky shots in with jump jets and hill humping while dropping UAVs and artys works rather well. I'm averaging 500 damage a match at the moment with the IIC which isn't bad. At the very least it is teaching me to play much more smartly.

Same here with more smartly mostly with my 4xatm9 and 2xmpl Somberoman engage when most the team got the enemy attention, and fire 2-3 volleys fall back and reposition .

[Roughneck45]

Good builds but its a walking CT.

You either twist, and lose your arm and half your guns, or shoot and get your ct melted once the enemy gets a bead on you.

[justcallme A S H]

I've had a number of decent games in them for sure. I mean with only ~40 skill points I've pulled out games like the below. Fully skilled - as I keep getting heat capped - easily rip out another 200dmg.

Speedtweak is IMO a total and utter waste given the mech needs are much armour as it can get due to the facetime it needs for most builds and 65T mechs get basically the best out of survial tree.You still run as fast or faster than most 90-100T Assaults so sticking with them is no issue. Work with them, pack a punch.

IMO Agility ain't gonna make that much difference either as the base agility is already good. I am yet to lose a torso and I'm being very cheeky with torso armour (taking 20 of per torso for more gunz/DHS).

Edited by justcallme A S H, 28 May 2019 - 08:27 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

justcallme A S H, on 28 May 2019 - 08:23 PM, said:

I've had a number of decent games in them for sure. I mean with only ~40 skill points I've pulled out games like the below.

Speedtweak is IMO a total and utter waste given the mech needs are much armour as it can get due to the facetime it needs for most builds and 65T mechs get basically the best out of survial tree.

IMO Agility ain't gonna make that much difference either as the base agility is already good. I am yet to lose a torso and I'm being very cheeky with torso armour (taking 20 of per torso for more gunz/DHS).

I think speed tweak is absolutely necessary for keeping up with faster mechs in QP and for repositioning in engagements. I really struggled trying to play any lower capped engines that go below 58 kmph, since cover and repositioning is key to staying alive so that you don't get focused down and artillery'd to death. To each their own I guess. Since this mech has absolutely no armor quirks besides skill tree investments I've always went with the initial philosophy that speed = survival in MW:O.

[justcallme A S H]

I'm an Assault main so moving 48-55km/h is normal for me. I've never had an issue or needed speed tweak personally with how I play as a result. Speed isn't always life in MWO. Intelligent movement is and they are definately two different things.

Hell Bows3r is running much slower than 58km/h in some of his - like 49km/h for more gunz/ammo and has cranked out 1500dmg+ games aplenty fully skilled.

Plus given how expensive speed tweak nodes are to get since it came in, many many players don't bother anymore and the entire game actually slowed down quite a bit and I feel that is still the case. If all Clan Heavy's were running 89km/h vs 81km/h that would be noticeable and it was a noticeable drop / alteration in game play.

Again this all just how I(we) play and opinion only.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 28 May 2019 - 09:29 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

justcallme A S H, on 28 May 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

I'm an Assault main so moving 48-55km/h is normal for me. I've never had an issue or needed speed tweak personally with how I play as a result. Speed isn't always life in MWO. Intelligent movement is and they are definately two different things.

Hell Bows3r is running much slower than 58km/h in some of his - like 49km/h for more gunz/ammo and has cranked out 1500dmg+ games aplenty fully skilled.

Plus given how expensive speed tweak nodes are to get since it came in, many many players don't bother anymore and the entire game actually slowed down quite a bit and I feel that is still the case. If all Clan Heavy's were running 89km/h vs 81km/h that would be noticeable and it was a noticeable drop / alteration in game play.

Again this all just how I(we) play and opinion only.

True, but I think in the case of most clan omnimechs that run a standard 81 kmph aren't really comparable to slower heavies like the Rifleman IIC. Speed tweak isn't necessary on them since they are equipped with engines that allow them to run meta speeds. I initially wanted all of the limited 235 engine variants to have an engine cap of 260 so I wouldn't have to invest in speed tweak or anything in mobility, but I don't mind the slower speeds of the mech since the raw firepower has to be balanced somehow. It only becomes a real problem when nascar is apparent which in case your team starts doing, you are pretty much dead anyways.

I'd like to see Bows3r's screen capped scoreboard and his builds with the Rifleman IIC if he can crank out 1500+ dmg games because that is rather impressive. Not that I don't believe you but do you have his builds that he is running?

Edited by Arnold The Governator, 28 May 2019 - 10:06 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I don't own it -- I wish to have one, but I don't.

Though as the one pummeling them I felt them to be unreasonably fragile, and being restricted to 58KPH is probably not good for the chassis. That being said, the original rifleman would probably be restricted to low engine rating to make space for decent weapons anyways.

I think the mech that are stuck at 235 should at least have 260 engine for 64 KPH. It already has IS-level good mobility anyways, on top of Clan-Tech, I don't think any more structure/armor is necessary, aside from compensating for a bit with that immense CT people are talking about -- probably 14 to 21 CT armor or structure might do it, that's a low-ball though considering that it has larger CT versus IS Rifleman.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 May 2019 - 11:51 PM.