84 replies to this topic

[Rosh87]

Hello everyone ! (waves) // Now, I'm still relatively new to the game (my only other main posting was over in the New Player's sub-forum, where Konniving, Void, and several other kind veterans have been providing useful thoughts and feedback to my earlier questions).. That said, I've managed to play a lot of games, since starting MWO more "hardcore", and have seen myself go from Tier-5 on April-7th, to (currently) 1/2 filled up skill bar, on Tier-2. I mention this to illustrate that while my "months-in-game" are still quite low, obviously, my actual "number of games played" is high enough that I feel I've seen various trends and could make a well-informed statement here.

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1.) NASCAR as a concept surprised me when I was first told about it ... the idea that this is even "a thing" in this game, puzzled me as my only other PC multiplayer experiences were in WOT and WT (tank games, basically), where Map Position was still important, of course, but there was never an idea that "now everyone will shift to the right and keep doing that for several minutes till we swap spawn points with the enemy team, effectively !. Only when I got to MWO and noticed to look for it / react to it, did I realize that it was something entirely novel to me. So, my first question / thought would be, WHY did this develop, and was it in the game since Beta, years ago, or is this something somewhat 'new" in MWO history ?


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2.) The fact that it does NOT happen with every map, seems to illustrate an important factor.... that PGI's map creation / balancing likely has a strong role to play in whether or not a map is going to "see Nascar play" a lot, or not. Some maps, like Crimson Strait for example, seem almost impossible to 'truly Nascar on' - to the same extent that you get on HPG array or Grim Plexus (hilarious how bad / extreme a few of my matches were with Nascaring, on that map, in recent weeks )

Basically, maps where they constructed a pseudo-Circle for the two sides to potentially move around, is one that has a high chance of that play 'style' being seen. Thus, isn't one possible 'cure' simply having PGI make more of the maps that "resist Nascar" (naturally), or some such ?

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3.) Finally, on the Speed of Assaults and 'Keeping Up With at Least the Heavies', suggestions: - I play a lot of Assaults...my very first purchased mech was the Annihilator 2a (6 Ballistic hardpoint one), purchased using the Cadet Bonus creds from my first 25 or so games after first being introduced to the game, in late January / early February... And I've played many others since then, including the Direwolf, Madcat, Fafnir, Marauder-2's, Mauler-90, etc.

Basically, what I can relay / state from my experiences, is that you are generally okay with "keeping up" as long as you are in one of the swifter assaults like Madcat-2, or perhaps an Inner Sphere 85 or 90 tonner, with a great engine and such... ... but any time you run one of the (typically) Inner Sphere "super assaults" with 90-100 Tons (mostly the big 100 tonners), you face a very real danger of being 'left behind' by everyone, unless you beg / plead with them to hold up slightly, for you .

- example of the issue in 'keeping up' is seen just from some basic speeds that pop to mind, using fairly common IS engine stuff:

Annihilator - 48.6 kmh
Fafnir - 48.6 kmh
Corsair - 51 kmh
Mauler - 50-55 kmh

etc... Now compare just a few of the Heavies in the game, and you'll see numbers like

Marauder - (heavy mech versions) - 62-75 kmh
Dragon- 67 kmh
Archer- 69 kmh
Roughneck - 74 kmh
Ebon Jaguar - (Clan) - 81 kmh
Summoner - (Clan) - 81 kmh
Linebacker - (Clan) - 97 kmh

etc

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Overall then, we can see that for man of the very weighty Assault Mechs with limited Engine caps, there is simply no way a player can design them in Mechlab, etc - that will easily allow them to "keep up" with the vast majority of the game's Heavy Mechs. Jump Jets are one possible "saving grace", as I've found that without them, some of the worst Nascar maps like Canyon Network and the new snow-version, Hibernal Rift, are extremely painful for the super-slow / super-heavy Assaults, because you can EASILY get left behind and / or hammered by ranged enemy fire, just moving from the spawn to your team's side / in the rough center of the map, and that's assuming you DO start moving right away (are not AFK, etc). It can still be a very 'close call' whether you made it 'undamaged' or not.

SO....it seems to me that the prevalence of the Nascar "style" in this game, means that players are almost 'forced' to only run "fast Assaults" (Clan XL engine-capable ones, for example), those with Jump Jets (Blood Asp combines both of these features, for instance, and is a great example of a heavyweight Assault that sort of is 'immune to these troubles' where Nascar concerns are being discussed), or be 'lucky' to just not be on a Nascar-prone map.

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Conclusion / solution ?: I'm too new to the game, overall, to be able to suggest a hard and fast 'fix' (if any exists), but I just wanted to express my own viewpoint on what I've seen and thought of it, since starting the game in-earnest, early last month. The recent threads on this broader topic here, in the General Discussion sub-forum inspired me to share my observations, thus far, with the community. I Hope the thoughts are useful in further continued enjoyable discussion on this - as I think it's an interesting dynamic in MWO, that (as I said earlier) I've not really seen replicated in other online combat games of this genre.

Edited by Rosh87, 18 May 2019 - 08:38 PM.

[Phoenix 72]

This has been discussed to death in the past years or so... Some people have bothered to find out battle reports from ancient Greece where essentially the same thing happened in large scale engagements. Some people think it is because right handed people have been conditioned to turn that way. Others think it is because people are selfish. Other think because people that use it are morons and others think there is no other way to play in certain situations... And frankly, depending on the situation, all of them probably have a point.

For myself, I often see this behaviour: One team has the high ground, on HPG or Mining, Grim Plexus or Polar, etc. This can happen as early as when 3 Mechs have reached the high ground first. Whichever enemy Mech is going to push up to high ground is going to get shot to pieces, especially if there are ramps (ie bottlenecks) leading up to the high ground, as he can shoot 1 of the guys at top, while the other 3 guys can concentrate on him. He can often get up to the top, but that player essentially sacrificed himself so the second person in can try to establish dominance. Not many people are willing to do that and it may end up doing **** all, too. Because the first thing most teams do in this situation is to drop an Artillery Strike into the bottleneck, so the people pushing up get to wade right through that. Another thing people are often unwilling to do. So they try to avoid the Artillery, leaving the 1-2 people that pushed to the top hanging. Divide et impera. Congratz, you have a 2:0 lead and the red team has little to no choice but to try to flank in cover, because pushing up the ramp at that point means you are done.

Nascar also happens when there is some form of obstacle in the way and both teams can build firing lines on either side, waiting for someone to peek. This happens on Polar quite often. Both teams establish a firing line. Whoever peeks over a hill frontally alone is really in for a world of hurt because everybody from the other team will shoot at them. So you have two choices... Either coordinate peeking (which often does not work on quick play, due to lack of communication), or peek at the side... Which turns into push on the side when you have an advantage.... Which turns into Nascar...

So you have some situations where Nascar is a good choice. And then - if that happens often enough - you have people conditioned to move to the right, because they were left behind a number of times and suddenly faced the majority of the enemy when they stopped checking the minimap for a minute, while trying to take down an enemy... So they try to anticipate where the battle is going to take place... And they do that by not being the first Mech visible to a rotating enemy. When running from Lions, you do not need to be faster than the Lions, just quicker than at least one other runner.

If you search for Nascar on this forum, you will probably find something like 1-2 threads every week.

[Tarl Cabot]

Fix? Not an immediate fix but it could be mitigated by not having Lance spawn points mirror each other.

C..<..B..<...A
v
v ^
^
C..>..B..>...A

But you get the idea. When PGI had an interview about their mapmaking approach, mirrored spawn points did make sense for a time, until old Caustic Valley. Old Forest Colony nor Frozen City had major issues with narscaring. What is funny is watching teams do that now on old Frozen City, with one side leaving the ridge line to head for the city, all of them, stay there to be encircled.

[Rosh87]

Tarl Cabot, on 19 May 2019 - 05:36 AM, said:

Fix? Not an immediate fix but it could be mitigated by not having Lance spawn points mirror each other.

C..<..B..<...A
v
v ^
^
C..>..B..>...A

But you get the idea. When PGI had an interview about their mapmaking approach, mirrored spawn points did make sense for a time, until old Caustic Valley. Old Forest Colony nor Frozen City had major issues with narscaring. What is funny is watching teams do that now on old Frozen City, with one side leaving the ridge line to head for the city, all of them, stay there to be encircled.

Thanks Darakor, and Tarl for your good explanations / thoughts (and the images, Tarl !).

I was thinking about this more, after I'd posted, and this occurred to me... If ALL mechs in a battle moved at the same "max speed" - say 75 kmh, to keep it uniform.... would we see any actual "Nascaring" or rather...the "complaints" phase of the Nascar ?

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See, it seems to me that if one defined Nascar as MERELY "moving round and round the battlefield, probing for chances to take shots, trying to flank or enfilade fire upon the enemy, etc" - this would actually translate as "Fighting the Battle Normally", to a massive extent - and thus would be largely un-objectionable.

Instead...what I THINK a lot of people mean when they say "please don't Nascar !" or "please can we do a battle without that awful Nascaring !" - in-game.... what they are ACTUALLY saying is "please don't have our faster Mechs rotate away so fast, that they leave behind our Slower / Slowest ones, to be torn apart by the enemy advance units who are also cycling and moving to engage our forces".

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In other words, the entire 'problem' seems to be one of Speed - or rather, the Differences in Speed between a team's fastest Mechs and Slowest ones. This is why my mind pondered (for Hypothetical Purposes only - of course - I'm not actually suggesting PGI make all Mechs Speeds the same - that would be terrible ).... the idea of "if all Speeds were the Same, would we still see the "Nascar phenomenon" appearing ?

I'm almost sure we wouldn't - because no Mech would get "left behind" - other than if they purposely stopped for a lengthy period, were AFK or other oddball occurrences (Player-Inflicted).

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The way the game currently is though - with both Map Spawns (as Tarl touched upon in his post / diagrams), and with the vast Speed Variations between even Heavies and Assaults (as I tried to list just a few of, in my first post), there are many instances where a 48.6 kmh max Assault spawns into a map and literally Cannot "keep up" with the other mechs on his team, let alone his Lance, and WILL get left behind on many maps (especially if they lack Jump Jets and can't just "go up and over" a wall or obstacle: Canyon Network and Hibernal are two of my somewhat disliked maps for this reason, when I'm running my Fafnir or Annihilator these days, as a result of this).

A Lance of Annihilator (48.6 kmh), Banshee (59 kmh), Madcat II (64 kmh) and Warhammer IIC (75 kmh) .... will Absolutely result in the poor Anni pilot being Left Behind !

It is not "his fault" in that case - he literally is locked behind a 300-powered Engine, and can never "tweak" his mech much beyond 48.6 kmh (without massive investment in the Mobility Tree for skills, which is kind of ridiculous for a 100-ton Assault to even have that suggested as a 'fix' to this 'problem'.

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This is why (in agreement with Tarl's idea on Spawn Point changes being helpful) - another possibility would be PGI focusing on making possibly more of the "Nascar Proof Maps" or rather "Maps That Are Hard to Nascar on, Even if you Wanted To" -

Examples that are currently in the game where I feel you don't "feel" like Nascar is actually happening are probably - Crimson Strait, the Skirmish Version of New Frozen City (where you basically just fight each other down the length of the City on the one large hill, with minimal movement off that high ground, once you get there and are facing each other), somewhat on Viridian Bog (there IS some rotation, but because of the High Ground / Swamp Floor dynamic, you can easily hug the walls and such and it's harder to get "full left behind" as in some of the other more notorious maps).... and somewhat on Polar Highlands (Conquest at least).

In fact...it occurs to me that Conquest fights, in general, tend to be less Nascary....why ? Not entirely sure, but possibly because the very nature of your teams splitting up early on to get the flags / zones, and then reforming, with the need to sometimes move out from the main group again to reclaim or take an enemy flag, etc ...that prevents the mass "balling up and rolling right" that you see on other maps / modes ? I think it seems to be the case that any map in which PGI either has a main "Objective" (Domination) or some Center-of-Map location that has a literal circular or square area "around it" - thereby allowing a team to literally "move around it"....then THOSE maps see a lot of this "Nascar phenomenon".

When PGI doesn't have a clear "center point that the teams can rotate around" - then.... you don't see teams doing that - lol // at least, that's my impression from my first month of hardcore playing of MWO. Obviously hardended multi-year vets are going to have a different amount of history in the game, and might see something more than I have here (in terms of the root causes for this, and possible corrections that could be made in the future) . In any case, thanks for the further perspectives from you two, and hope to hear more from others on this, if they have any ideas on what we've discussed here already.

[Phoenix 72]

Well, for the most part, the slowest Assaults are also the ones that have the highest armour and/or the largest firepower. So speed is used to balance them. The lack of speed is what you pay for all the weapons. There are few Mechs in this game that do not have some downside. The larger the advantage a certain Mech brings on a certain type of map, the bigger the disadvantage on a different type of map. If you have seen an Annihilator go capping on Polar Highlands, you will know what I mean.

You can either build a very specialised Mech that will do very well in certain circumstances, but horrible in others - or you can just build a Mech that does decently in most circumstances. That is down to personal choice. The "problem" is that you do not know what map you are going to drop on in advance. Because then you would only see builds optimised for that particular map.

As far as new maps go, PGI has a very limited number of staff and all of them are working on MW5. So they essentially only do stuff in MWO that prevents the game from dropping dead. That is not going to change until MW5 is out. There are different arguments going on regarding what will happen when MWO drops. Some people seem to think development on MWO will continue, others think PGI is going to let the game die. Either way, new maps will be sparse and long between.

Edited by Darakor Stormwind, 19 May 2019 - 09:41 PM.

[FRAGTAST1C]

NASCAR has always bothered me. The lack of willingness to communicate/respond to target-calling is one of the primary reasons. Everyone wants to flank, even in their slow mechs. Tier 3 was the best 'cause even though there'd be NASCAR, everyone there seemed to kind of want to brawl whereas now, I see more and more people that want to stay in the second line but somehow think that they can STILL flank.

I recently bought some clan assaults like the Dire Wolf UV which acts like a turret and has almost negligible mobility. I was struggling and posted a topic here to get some advice. One of the top players here, ASH, suggested that I go for full dakka and actually stay still in a defensible position and just do damage.

This is a screenshot of my last result in my Dire Wolf.



It was on Canyon Network. I slowly reached the centre while doing some damage on the move to the enemies also moving towards the centre. Once I reached there, I saw that the people were ready to start playing "Mech-Racer Online". So, I took the overwatch position in the centre near the boulders and oscillated between the two corners using the giant structure as cover from time to time. As my teammates and the enemies circled around each other, I just shot my weapons. I didn't care about anything other than to move between the two boulders near me while shooting at the enemies and keeping my back facing my teammates. The only time I moved out of that spot is when the enemy numbers were dwindling and I had to find the stragglers.

Now, obviously, I'm not good. I missed a lot of shots. But what those screenshots should tell you is that my Lance-mates were running around trying to shoot but almost never did while the faster mechs managed to be active. If they had just stopped rotating and took up positions near my spot, we could've destroyed them even faster.

My positioning isn't always great and I sometimes forget about the minimap but if a newb like me with just a tiny amount of effort can pull that off, I don't get why higher tier people who've played this game FOR SO LONG, continue to NASCAR EVEN WHEN on the comms, others are calling out target positions.

Now why am I saying this? Hopefully, more people will start listening to good advice given here and act accordingly and maybe the game can stop frustrating us often and becomes a rare thing.

[Snowhawk]

Rosh87, on 18 May 2019 - 08:36 PM, said:

I'm still relatively new to the game.... and have seen myself go from Tier-5 on April-7th, to (currently) 1/2 filled up skill bar, on Tier-2.

Wait…?!
Do you really say that in the time from April 2019 until May 2019 you went from Tier 5 to Tier 2?

Even if you Play like Proton or Bowser shoud this not be possible because the Standard Progress (the old Progress which we had 1 or 2 years ago) in the Tier bar is very slow. It's very easy to go from rank 5 to 4 and then the Progress is usually slower. Seems that pgi has boostet the Tier Progress and now everyone and her mother is in Tier 2 and 1. I dont want to Insult you with this post, I'm worried About other Players who are now Tier 2 or 1.

I often see Matches where 4 or 5 Players in my Team are not able to reach 100 or even 80 matchscore! There are also Tier 1 streamers who are asking: Wtf, where does the matchmaker find this People.....?

[Phoenix 72]

Well, Canyon is a special case... As far as I am concerned, everybody that stays in the Canyons might as well give up.

The narrow bottleneck right before reaching the ramps means that 2 decent dakka mechs can essentially stall the whole enemy advance. I was in plenty of matches where 2 Triple Rac2 Bushwackers and some well placed artillery strikes prevented the whole enemy team from getting up the ramps.

[visionGT4]

Darakor Stormwind, on 19 May 2019 - 10:40 PM, said:

The narrow bottleneck right before reaching the ramps means that 2 decent dakka mechs can essentially stall the whole enemy advance. I was in plenty of matches where 2 Triple Rac2 Bushwackers and some well placed artillery strikes prevented the whole enemy team from getting up the ramps.

More likely its because people are too scared to hold W and would rather die like female genitalia than deal with screen shake to attain a decent firing position.

Edited by visionGT4, 20 May 2019 - 12:13 AM.

[crazytimes]

People like running in circles. You can either fight it, get salty and miserable and make another NASCAR thread, or just put a bigger engine in and keep up with the team. Better alive and fighting with a lower alpha than dead and salty.

[PhoenixFire55]

Its all really simple tho ... Assaults aren't even supposed to "keep up with" anything in the first place. Yet ask yourself what happens when the fight starts around the typical "central feature" on maps like Mining and HPG? ... Assaults are hardly ever doing what they are supposed to do, they hardly ever push the center/top in front of their smaller guys, but rather hang in the back, hoping that the smaller guys would screen them and allow them to shoot without getting shot back.

Now obviously smaller guys aren't build for taking the same amount of punishment on the frontline, so they begin to flank, usually to the right in order to attack the enemy from an angle where they won't be focused and shot as much ... And what do assaults do when they see their lighter mechs start rotating? ... Well, they of course still aren't keen on sharing their armor and taking damage so they try to "keep up". And obviously trying to "keep up" with a mech that does 80-150kph in a mech that does 50kph is a bit of a stupid idea. And yet it still happens because 8 out of 10 assault pilots are cowards and/or selfish pr*cks who are only bothered with their own stats rather then helping the team and winning.

Now what happens when assaults actually do what they are supposed to do on a map like Manifold and push top and take it? ... Well, there suddenly is no nascar, because when assaults push middle they are focused and they take damage, meaning that ligher mechs don't need to do the merry-go-round, and can just push with the assaults without being under too much fire. Team pushes together and wins. Simple.

And finally a thought for everyone who wants to nascar in their mech ...
The length of a "lap" in nascar is about L=2*Pi*R, where Pi~3.14 and R is lap radius if we assume its close to a circular shape. Time it takes for a mech to complete said "lap" is L / V, where V is its speed. In order to "keep up" with rotation in the slowest mech (V1), it has to complete the "lap" in the same time as the fastest mech (V2) does. So L1 / V1 = L2 / V2, or R1 / V1 = R2 / V2. Lets assume V1=50kph, V2=150kph, and R2=600m (typical kind of rotation radius on most maps with central feature). It gives us R1=200m. So ... surprise surprise, you can easily "keep up" with the fastest kind of nascar as long as you nascar with a smaller radius. Sadly for the cowards, 200m radius lies within the center of the Manifold top, Mining top, etc. So in order to "keep up" slow assaults have to take top and rotate there. Again ... simple.

[The6thMessenger]

FRAGTAST1C, on 19 May 2019 - 10:14 PM, said:

It was on Canyon Network. I slowly reached the centre while doing some damage on the move to the enemies also moving towards the centre. Once I reached there, I saw that the people were ready to start playing "Mech-Racer Online". So, I took the overwatch position in the centre near the boulders and oscillated between the two corners using the giant structure as cover from time to time. As my teammates and the enemies circled around each other, I just shot my weapons. I didn't care about anything other than to move between the two boulders near me while shooting at the enemies and keeping my back facing my teammates. The only time I moved out of that spot is when the enemy numbers were dwindling and I had to find the stragglers.

And you weren't harassed by lights? I mean honestly I would like to just stay in few spots to shoot, but them lights are just cramping my style, cause Dires are allergic to lights and most particularly the piranha.

[FRAGTAST1C]

The6thMessenger, on 20 May 2019 - 02:40 AM, said:

And you weren't harassed by lights? I mean honestly I would like to just stay in few spots to shoot, but them lights are just cramping my style, cause Dires are allergic to lights and most particularly the piranha.

I shot every enemy that I could find with my cross-hairs. The whole match, everyone just decided to run around the centre instead of cutting across to the other side from the top, leaving me there all alone. Besides, I was lucky 'cause that match didn't have any "actual Lights" in the enemy team.

[The6thMessenger]

FRAGTAST1C, on 20 May 2019 - 03:27 AM, said:

I shot every enemy that I could find with my cross-hairs. The whole match, everyone just decided to run around the centre instead of cutting across to the other side from the top, leaving me there all alone. Besides, I was lucky 'cause that match didn't have any "actual Lights" in the enemy team.

Lucky indeed.

[Brizna]

The reason behind Nascar is very similar to the reason why water going down a sink hole rotates always in the same direction in every hemisphere: CORIOLIS FORCE. Most mechs have most weapons in the right side,this means hey tend to flank right, this causes a general flanking to the right that unless the maps prevents it turns into a general counter clock wise movement in which those who don't follow become isolated.

[Phoenix 72]

Brizna, on 20 May 2019 - 07:46 AM, said:

The reason behind Nascar is very similar to the reason why water going down a sink hole rotates always in the same direction in every hemisphere: CORIOLIS FORCE. Most mechs have most weapons in the right side,this means hey tend to flank right, this causes a general flanking to the right that unless the maps prevents it turns into a general counter clock wise movement in which those who don't follow become isolated.

Doesn't that mean that Nascar on the Oceanic server should be in clockwise direction?

Also, Nascar is not a problem... As long as people keep shooting while Nascaring, anyway... Then they can circle around the enemy forever, for all I care... My problem is when they move but don't shoot. That makes me mad.

[Dragonporn]

I'm pretty confident that the reason is QP mentality. Thing is, you cannot rely on your teammates one bit to back you up. After enough time spent you'll notice that in vast number of situations, consciously or not, your teammates will be using you as a bait or shield. Nascar doesn't always happen to the right side, I've seen left too, not so often though, and reason why must be lance drop points, as mentioned above several times. During engagement, faster mechs trying to make bigger distance from pushing enemy force, attempting catch fat mechs to stick it to their rears and literally the rest of the team just follow, while friendly slow movers get massacred from behind.

Plainly speaking, the only reason why nascar is happening is because complete lack of coordination. It's very ineffective combat tactic, if you even can call it that, akin to lemming running for their lives concept, or something like that, and lack of trust in your team mates, which are just random people.

Sadly there's no way at all to avoid nascar happening, you just have to deal with it, or don't play QP/slow mechs. But frankly, even if you're in a fast mech and keeping in upper row, seeing how your whole team sacrifice good positions and wins for nothing is quite disheartening.

Edited by Dragonporn, 20 May 2019 - 09:29 AM.

[GottFaust]

I love it when the team successfully converts a NASCAR into a murderball and rolls over the enemy team's assaults that they left behind with the full force of a mobile firing line. Remember: even in a NASCAR situation you need to stick with your assaults. If you do: they get shot anyway, but you're around to free-fire on the guys shooting them instead of you.

[Khobai]

nascar happens because of idiot gamemodes like skirmish.

if the gamemodes had static objectives teams had to defend you wouldnt see nascaring.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 20 May 2019 - 02:59 PM, said:

if the gamemodes had static objectives teams had to defend you wouldnt see nascaring.

You mean like assault, incursion, and conquest?