429 replies to this topic

[slide]

Nice video and explanations: My thoughts.

-It's overly complicated, doesn't really inspire loyalty as at least 75% of matches played will be at a reduced rate, which again favors the merc lifestyle (loyalty switching) which some people simply don't want.

-Doesn't address the rank 20 issue with permanent loyalty, at some point the grind become pointless.

-Doesn't address faction number balance, which is another discussion. (switching)

Solutions and or questions for Paul: (potentially)

-Do we actually need an LP tree for every faction? All the trees are identical with the exception of rank names. Can we just have 1 path that earns LP whomever you pledge too?

-Permanent Loyalty with no way to get out will discourage the use of permanence. Is it possible to have have a "break loyalty" feature that will cost you 1 LP rank? This would allow people to shop around in the early days to try out different factions with no great loss but encourage people to stay the higher they get in the ranks. Is it possible to "re earn" the reward of the lost rank? If so then maybe this should only be enabled after rank 10 or 12 as people could just constantly exploit lower ranks for endless free mechbays. This would also help with the rank 20 issue as people could just reset them selves to rank 19 and go again.

I still think there needs to be a greater division between merc and loyalist, because ATM and with the new plan it is basically just a label. IMO repair and rearm would have been the most ideal way to implement this as Loyalist would get free repairs whilst mercs would have to pay. This obviously isn't going to happen as R&R is a dead concept however we could simulate this to a degree by giving mercs less LP and more Cbills to compensate and give loyalists 5 or 10 tonne bonus to their drop deck weight. Is that possible?

[eddieb]

"Someone who is not a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5M CBills."

This isn't going to work, non-permanents really need to be able to swap quickly and easily to balance out the faction player populations if the queues are imbalanced.

Also can you please let the unit pick the faction for us like before.

Edited by eddieb, 03 June 2019 - 08:23 PM.

[shaytalis]

Rather than "loyalists" and "permanent loyalists" I think a better way to look at this is "loyalists" and "officers."

Anyone can be Loyal to a particular Faction and earn LP for that faction. You can change that easily as a necessity for an online game such as this. Think of this as a nameless merc, or someone who hasn't earned their bloodname yet. They can vanish without being noticed.

To be a cut above that, you can become an Officer of your Faction.

• It has the +X% LP boost
  
• You can earn ranks within that Faction with associated Titles to display. Your forum icon would also display your Officer Rank.
  
• Going up in Rank requires not just building LP but also participating in victorious Conflicts as an Officer; which gives more meaning to the storyline of the FP conflicts.
  
• Maintaining certain high officer ranks requires you to maintain a certain activity level in FP and also rewards you with a monthly stipend.
  
• Maintaining a high rank should be easier than obtaining it in the first place--perhaps becoming a Galaxy Commander III requires participating in 5 victorious conflicts as a Galaxy Commander II, but maintaining Galaxy Commander III only requires earning a certain amount of LP over some time period (being active in FP).

Once you become an Officer for a Faction, you can no longer freely change Factions. Where you can go from there if you decide to change Factions:

• For no cost, you can leave the Officer program, and once again freely change factions as a non-officer. You give up your Officer rank entirely and all progress made towards it. You give up your bloodname / rank and go into hiding as a nameless recruit. This is always free to do.
  
• After leaving the Officer program, you can join the Officer program for the same or another Faction and start from scratch. The first and second times you join an Officer program, it's free. [So you could become an Officer, leave, then become an Officer of a new faction without paying anything.] Every additional time you change Officer programs, you have to pay an MC cost to cover up your defection--get the databases scrubbed of your previous career. Hackers go in and give you a new identity. (I would even offer a complimentary Pilot Name Change if you want to use it, to go along with the RP of this.)

The idea here is that an Officer is no longer some nameless recruit who can slip from one side to another more easily. Once you've started making a name for yourself as an Officer, it is difficult to "vanish" again, especially into the upper ranks of a different Faction. But you can defect to another cause for a price.

Edited by shaytalis, 03 June 2019 - 08:25 PM.

[Geewiz 27]

eddieb, on 03 June 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

"Someone who is not a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5M CBills."

This isn't going to work, non-permanents really need to be able to swap quickly and easily to balance out the faction player populations if the queues are imbalanced.

Also can you please let the unit pick the faction for us like before.

I was with you initially on this eddieb but after playing with new FW reality for a week or more I no longer think it's viable to have unit leaders be the only ones able to select which side of conflict people are on. Reason is in my unit out of about 12 - 20 regular players only 2 of those are able to do the selection for the unit and if those 2 people don't log in for real life reasons or they simply don't want to you end missing out on a lot of drops because your selection hasn't happened. Last year when there was all those consecutive FW events happening about 6 of our most regular pilots left the unit in game and created there own 1 man unit's myself included so we could get games when we wanted. So with the rate of change in the new system I could see alot of units running to that problem.

[shaytalis]

Geewiz 27, on 03 June 2019 - 09:40 PM, said:

I was with you initially on this eddieb but after playing with new FW reality for a week or more I no longer think it's viable to have unit leaders be the only ones able to select which side of conflict people are on. Reason is in my unit out of about 12 - 20 regular players only 2 of those are able to do the selection for the unit and if those 2 people don't log in for real life reasons or they simply don't want to you end missing out on a lot of drops because your selection hasn't happened. Last year when there was all those consecutive FW events happening about 6 of our most regular pilots left the unit in game and created there own 1 man unit's myself included so we could get games when we wanted. So with the rate of change in the new system I could see alot of units running to that problem.

I've suggested that Units can restrict membership by Loyalty rather than changing the Loyality of the members. So if you want to be in the Unit, you have to have the Loyalty necessary to join the unit. And make this optional as a feature for the Unit Leader to make their unit more restrictive or less restrictive on membership requirements. Maybe even have the ability to require Unit members to maintain a certain rank in FP, for those hardcore units who want everyone to be active.

And of course, if you want your Unit members to have no Faction restrictions, don't add those restrictions. Your choice as the unit leader.

Edited by shaytalis, 03 June 2019 - 09:52 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Geewiz 27, on 03 June 2019 - 09:40 PM, said:

Reason is in my unit out of about 12 - 20 regular players only 2 of those are able to do the selection for the unit and if those 2 people don't log in for real life reasons or they simply don't want to you end missing out on a lot of drops because your selection hasn't happened.

That is not a PGI problem that is a user problem.

Give more access to let people alter contracts. It's a single instance line in the list of permissions. Everyone that plays FP in any unit I've been in has had access to change it for that reason - single line.

If the unit makes the concious choice not to allow people access to a single button that just rests with them.

When a unit has 150 members - for each of them to log in and have to go through the change process each time is gross inefficiency and waste of time.

[ReactiveChaos]

justcallme A S H, on 03 June 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

When a unit has 150 members - for each of them to log in and have to go through the change process each time is gross inefficiency and waste of time.

You mean exactly like it is right now?

[shaytalis]

justcallme A S H, on 03 June 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

That is not a PGI problem that is a user problem.

Give more access to let people alter contracts. It's a single instance line in the list of permissions. Everyone that plays FP in any unit I've been in has had access to change it for that reason - single line.

If the unit makes the concious choice not to allow people access to a single button that just rests with them.

When a unit has 150 members - for each of them to log in and have to go through the change process each time is gross inefficiency and waste of time.

What do you think of my suggestion? That a Unit can optionally apply restrictions if it wants to? A Unit Leader could choose (for example):

1) No restrictions on membership
2) Members cannot be loyal to IS Factions
3) Members cannot be loyal to Clan Factions
4) Members must be Loyal to a specific Faction

At base, joining a Unit would not limit your choices. The only way it would limit you is if the Unit wants to impose a limitation. This seems like it would resolve your issue, since your Unit could simply choose not to restrict membership by Faction loyalty. Meanwhile it would allow those who want such restrictions to apply them. Everybody wins?

Edited by shaytalis, 04 June 2019 - 04:55 AM.

[Appogee]

Geewiz 27, on 03 June 2019 - 05:14 PM, said:

I think leave it as is for those of us who loyalty hop to balance queue and just do your extra reward for the Long term loyalist maybe? Also and this may also resolve my question above how does being a mercenary figure into all this if at all?

Here's a slightly more evolved version of ^ this.

• LP rewards increase for the longer a player remains loyal to one faction.
  Eg: Base LP times a Multiplier based on the Number of Consecutive Conflicts Aligned to Same Faction.
  
• If a player changes Faction, their multiplier is reset to zero.
  In this way, Mercs and constant faction hoppers earn LP at a base rate.
  Their 'penalty' is to not earn as many points as those who stay loyal.
  
• After LP Level 20, players get a free Mech Bay and 10M C-Bill for every 10,000 LP they earn.

This is basic, easy to understand, and easy to implement.


Personally, I'd love it if PGI took it further, expanding on the new story-telling aspect of FP. Provide unique rewards based on Faction alignment. For example, Steiners who win a Conflict get half price Atlases. Diamond Sharks get +30% CBills. Ghost Bear get discounted Kodiaks. Etc.

Edited by Appogee, 04 June 2019 - 05:20 AM.

[Nightbird]

I don't understand the desire to shaft loyalists with reduced loyalty gains from fighting elsewhere.

You think the Wolf's Dragoons weren't hugely benefiting their Clan masters while fighting in IS vs IS conflicts?

JUST... LET... PEOPLE... PLAY

If permanent loyalist, you get 120% loyalty gains for your faction, and also IF a conflict involves your faction or your alliance, you cannot choose to fight for the other side. Large cost to change faction.

If temporary loyalist, 100% loyalty gains and small cost to change faction.

EASY

Edited by Nightbird, 04 June 2019 - 05:24 AM.

[Grus]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

A note about "Permanent Pledge to a Faction". I'm hearing you.. permanent is not good... however, there should be SOMETHING that makes swapping from a dedicated loyalist to another Faction something that should be a major decision on you the player. I'm not saying a kabillion CBills or you lose all your LP.... I need to find out what's acceptable for a 'punishment' when swapping Factions as a Loyalist either at the 'casual' or 'permanent' level.

e.g.
Someone who is not a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5M CBills.
Someone who is a permanent loyalist can switch factions at the cost of 5000LP and their favorite baseball card.

This is what I need to know. There are people who are saying you can swap without ANY costs... which to me totally breaks the point of Loyalists. Then there are people who are saying you can swap but it comes at a cost (Help me out with what costs). Then there are people who say you should never be able to switch (not too popular).

Leaving said perm loyalty wouldn't be a issue if we could still drop FW any time we want. If I'm a GB loyalist and I cant drop in FW because it's a is vs is thing then that sucks. It incentivizes pilots to swap to said faction so they can play the game mode.

If I didn't have to worry about getting locked out, OR HAVING REDUCED LP GAINS, I wouldn't worry about being a permanent loyalist.

[Usagiyama Shugo]

Captain Caveman DE, on 03 June 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

-can we have a way to change faction on the fly right now? don't care for the cbills OR the loyalty points, we just wanna get matches. it is WAY easier when we can adjust for example from 3vs45 to ideally 24vs24. people are leaving cause we don't get any matches.

I noticed something the other day that makes this suggestion less necessary. When you go to the Faction Play lobby, before you choose your role/faction from the Select Role and Faction tab, if you click on the Inner Sphere Map tab you can see the queue pop for each side of the conflict. One can quickly see which side has the lower population and can then choose accordingly. Obviously, this doesn't overcome all the potential problems, but It does help.

[SilentScreamer]

I really think think PGI is missing an opportunity to improve Faction Play by only focusing discussion on Loyalists. Changing how Career choices interact with the Matchmaker Queue could improve queue balance as well as give Loyalists a defined role to set them apart from Mercenaries.

A few points I disagree with under the current design:
- everyone should earn full Loyalty Points all the time
- mercenaries and freelancers should not have a Faction, only Career, so they are able to participate in any Conflict

In order to make matches fill faster the matchmaker would assign Loyalists to "Allied" Faction's Conflict queue. Mercs/Freelancers automatically goto side with less players in queue at that specific moment.

Roleplay wise, why would a Faction hire mercs if their own forces were more than sufficient. Once both sides are equal and more mercs queue, they would be equally distributed on both sides.

If I learned anything during CW Beta2 it was the playerbase is unwilling/not capable of balancing the queues themselves (Jade Falcon ran the map).

Edited by SilentScreamer, 04 June 2019 - 05:57 AM.

[Nightbird]

SilentScreamer, on 04 June 2019 - 05:52 AM, said:

In order to make matches fill faster the matchmaker would assign Loyalists to "Allied" Faction's Conflict queue. Mercs/Freelancers automatically goto side with less players in queue at that specific moment.

This would require an IS and Clan drop deck selected to be able to search for a match, I'm all for it but it'll probably be a technical hurdle.

(also a problem with groups)

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

Paul Inouye, on 03 June 2019 - 04:11 PM, said:

Then there are people who are saying you can swap but it comes at a cost (Help me out with what costs).

Even losing ~ALL the loyalty points is ok...

But instead of PUNISHING loyalty with lower then 100% gains when not fighting for your faction...
Loyalty should be REWARDED with higher then 100% gains when fighting for your faction (and 100% gains when not fighting for your faction).

Otherwise Mercenary gains (with 100% loyalty gains in every case) are same or better then Loyalty gains in every case.

Under the understanding that over 80% of the time your Faction isn't part of the story, so less then 100% gains the many times you're not fighting for your faction is a huge penalty, while over 100% gains the rare times you're allowed to fight for your faction is a minor gain.

Edited by Humble Dexter, 04 June 2019 - 07:44 AM.

[TWIAFU]

-Spectre, on 31 May 2019 - 10:22 PM, said:

Thanks for working so hard on this, Paul. It means a lot to us.

Here, here!

[SilentScreamer]

Nightbird, on 04 June 2019 - 06:00 AM, said:

This would require an IS and Clan drop deck selected to be able to search for a match, I'm all for it but it'll probably be a technical hurdle.

(also a problem with groups)

The system already remembers and selects default Invasion or default scouting deck automatically for the player. I believe creating specific default Clan and default IS for Invasion and Scouting is within PGI's capabilities.

Besides, how many players actually use their default deck once the map is known?

Edited by SilentScreamer, 04 June 2019 - 10:37 AM.

[Geewiz 27]

justcallme A S H, on 03 June 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

That is not a PGI problem that is a user problem.

Give more access to let people alter contracts. It's a single instance line in the list of permissions. Everyone that plays FP in any unit I've been in has had access to change it for that reason - single line.

If the unit makes the concious choice not to allow people access to a single button that just rests with them.

When a unit has 150 members - for each of them to log in and have to go through the change process each time is gross inefficiency and waste of time.

Ash I don't know which units you have been in prior to emp but all I can do is speak from my expierence and the 2 units I have been in have had officers that have control of that stuff and it makes sense to me. I mean if you've got a unit that's been around for say 5 years your not going to hand out control of unit stuff to every new member you get. Because as we all know turn over of pilots can be pretty high. You get some guys that hang around for a while and you get some that ********** pretty quickly to. And to be honest your generalisation that all units do it the way you said is BS I can guarantee you the big units with 50 plus members Like 228, MS, HHoD, SRoT, CWM there would only be a limited number of people most likely all unit officers that have the ability to select unit wide allegiance.

[BROARL]

Paul re: Loyalists and penalties

i have commented previously that rewards for level20 Steiner and lev10 merc did not compare to rewards earnt in quickplay in less than half the time so let's be honest, there is no real in game incentive for Loyalty, or to play invasion at all (apart from the perhaps initial mech bays).
for many of us who are Loyalists that loyalty did not begin with MWO and it often carries onto tabletop and everywhere else. i suspect a better incentive is a discount on house related stuff once a certain level is reached. i can think of many other options but this is possibly the easiest to implement and balance.
penalties would then include a loss of discounts, among other things, if one breaks loyalty.
i have suffered hundreds of thousands of LP in losses under earlier systems and it didn't bother me, i could pay a hundred million penalty in C and it wouldn't bother me, i could lose a couple thousand MC and it'd suck but it's not really much more than a slap on the hands until the next events. ...but i would not want to lose access to discount skins or colours or heroes or any of the other things that would (as it happens) encourage me to coin.
perhaps if rewards included dropdecks rather than mechbays, or colours instead of cockpit items, or at least if the cockpit items were faction specific?

Edited by BROARL, 04 June 2019 - 06:16 PM.

[TWIAFU]

Had a thought and not sure if possible or suggested, so I will post and try to explain my idea....

Make it so you pledge Loyality to IS or Clan, not a specific faction within each.

Once you have pledged Loyality, you choose your Faction. Once your Faction comes up for CW, you gain a bonus to LP.

You gain LP like you would normally, but more like GXP where as you can spend it across any faction within your chosen Loyality. Maybe a reduced ration for outside your chosen Faction.

I'll try to explain by example;

I decide to pledge my Loyality to the IS and choose Davion as my Faction. I drop and play CW gaining GLP (generic LP) and Davion Specific LP, say DLP (Davion LP). I can spend the GLP to raise my DLP at say, 1:1 ratio because I am align to Davion. DLP is always at 1:1. In the same scenario, say I want to spend my GLP on Steiner. I can spend my GLP at a higher ratio, example 2:1, while still aligned to Davion and still gain Davion LP.

I could not spend any LP on Clan while Loyal to the IS, I would have to swap loyality.

Does that make any sense to anyone?