46 replies to this topic

[HammerMaster]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 01:22 PM, said:

Once again showing how little you understand about the MWO landscape.

For approx 10-14hrs every day, group queue is so dead you cannot find games because of the issues surrounding the population, group size and matching.

Once again.
Same rhetoric.
Anyone other than you doesn't "understand"
It's wrong and needs to be remedied.
You have abundantly pointed out it hasn't.
10-14 hours? So be it. Slum it in QP like the rest of us.
You playing already confers an advantage citing your "elite" status.
Why do you have to stack the deck anymore? Because it clearly IS stacking the deck.

Edited by HammerMaster, 27 May 2019 - 01:30 PM.

[FupDup]

Sjorpha, on 27 May 2019 - 01:25 PM, said:

First of all, again, I agree that sync-dropping is a complete non-issue in MWO. It's always casual, doesn't cause any measurable damage, and on top of that even if we all thought it was a problem there would be no way to enforce a rule against it as there is no way to distinguish between a sync-drop and people randomly getting into the same match.

However, as fairness in understood in sports you only need a potential advantage for a practice to be considered unfair. Sync-dropping would be considered unfair in any serious competitive venue because there is the potential advantage of superior coordination, the fact that most sync-droppers are just casually bantering and playing and not really using that potential wouldn't be a factor in a strict evaluation of the fairness of sync-dropping, only potential advantage assuming maximum tryhard coordination would be considered, and as I demonstrated above that potential is a guaranteed positive value.

It's a non-issue because MWO quickplay is not a serious competitive venue, because the practice is too casual to cause problems, and because enforcing a rule would have more negative than positive consequences. It is not however a non-issue because there is "no advantage", because strictly speaking there is.

The communication level is irrelevant in determining whether or not any advantage is conferred. If the player has a higher skill level, having them on your side is better than having a random potato even if nobody says anything the entire match. Good players tend to know where they need to go and when they need to go there without anybody having to tell them to do it. MWO, at least in QP, tends to be more about "gamesense" and instincts than coordination.

[Stingray Productions]

FupDup, on 27 May 2019 - 01:29 PM, said:

The communication level is irrelevant in determining whether or not any advantage is conferred. If the player has a higher skill level, having them on your side is better than having a random potato even if nobody says anything the entire match. Good players tend to know where they need to go and when they need to go there without anybody having to tell them to do it. MWO, at least in QP, tends to be more about "gamesense" and instincts than coordination.

I'd agree on that. The coordination stuff is best for faction play. Good senses even tell you how to work and support your team mates without even talking. Once I was running around in a light and a heavy friend was getting picked off by a mean piranha all by himself. I quickly went to his aid and killed the piranha, saving my teammate's life. He didn't have to say anything, but I could see he was in trouble so i came to his aid.

[Sjorpha]

FupDup, on 27 May 2019 - 01:29 PM, said:

The communication level is irrelevant in determining whether or not any advantage is conferred. If the player has a higher skill level, having them on your side is better than having a random potato even if nobody says anything the entire match. Good players tend to know where they need to go and when they need to go there without anybody having to tell them to do it. MWO, at least in QP, tends to be more about "gamesense" and instincts than coordination.

No, it is not irrelevant. The benefits of coordination is more than 0, even if it's very small, and it is added to whatever other factors are in play such as player skill and gamesense. Now I agree that is all players who are sync dropping are above the average skill of the matches they drop in, that advantage is probably bigger than the one from coordination. If they are comfortable playing together since before for example from being in the same unit there is also a silent coordination going on, along with the possibility of picking mechs and builds that play well together and so on, all those factors would add to the advantage of sync dropping and probably more so than their spoken coordination. It would not make coordination irrelevant though, just a smaller factor than those other factors.

I mean if you take my previous example with 2 players, and assume that they are both so incredibly good at the game that they win each match where they get on the same team (this would probably be true of some comp players), if they get on the same team 50% of the time they would have an average winrate of 75% (or 3.0 in MWO terms) that game session even if they don't communicate at all. That would be a very clear example of unfair advantage by any standards of competition.

Edited by Sjorpha, 27 May 2019 - 01:56 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

HammerMaster, on 27 May 2019 - 01:27 PM, said:

Once again.
Same rhetoric.
Anyone other than you doesn't "understand"
It's wrong and needs to be remedied.
You have abundantly pointed out it hasn't.
10-14 hours? So be it. Slum it in QP like the rest of us.
You playing already confers an advantage citing your "elite" status.
Why do you have to stack the deck anymore? Because it clearly IS stacking the deck.

Same rhetoric? Of course it's the same. Has the population had an overnight return of 30,000 players? No. Thus there isn't the population to sustain GroupQ for that length of time on an almost daily basis.

You don't play at those times and don't understand it - yet comment as if you do. Why?

I've spent, live on stream, HOURS waiting for GroupQ to never find a game after 40mins more than once and 20-30mins at a dozen times at least. So we just don't bother anymore as it's a waste of everyone's time. So that's what we do - play normal Quick Play.

Now as I've said repeatedly - I don't even sync drop. I have no timer on stream or comms and anyone that ends up in a drop simply does because of lack of population. Are the sides stacked? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It is random chance. Does it affect the outcome - sometimes yes, sometimes no.

However when teams DO get stacked, who and what is at fault? That is an easy answer as it is entirely on PGI and the Match Maker for uneven distribution of skill/players etc. It could be doing secondary redistribution yet it doesn't. So this whole "players are the problem" is rubbish when the system doesn't even work.

[Monkey Lover]

I have done this hundreds of times for Marik Monday. I can't think of a time when we all ended up on one team. Its almost always split 50-50 on each team.

[HammerMaster]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 02:04 PM, said:

Same rhetoric? Of course it's the same. Has the population had an overnight return of 30,000 players? No. Thus there isn't the population to sustain GroupQ for that length of time on an almost daily basis.

You don't play at those times and don't understand it - yet comment as if you do. Why?

I've spent, live on stream, HOURS waiting for GroupQ to never find a game after 40mins more than once and 20-30mins at a dozen times at least. So we just don't bother anymore as it's a waste of everyone's time. So that's what we do - play normal Quick Play.

Now as I've said repeatedly - I don't even sync drop. I have no timer on stream or comms and anyone that ends up in a drop simply does because of lack of population. Are the sides stacked? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It is random chance. Does it affect the outcome - sometimes yes, sometimes no.

However when teams DO get stacked, who and what is at fault? That is an easy answer as it is entirely on PGI and the Match Maker for uneven distribution of skill/players etc. It could be doing secondary redistribution yet it doesn't. So this whole "players are the problem" is rubbish when the system doesn't even work.

You haven't addressed all my points.
Yes YOU HAVE more hours than me now.
With my waning interest due to various reasons and this just makes it less enjoyable. Wonder why?
Things need to change. This you agree with.
But again.
SLUM IT WITH THE REST OF US.

[justcallme A S H]

FupDup, on 27 May 2019 - 01:29 PM, said:

The communication level is irrelevant in determining whether or not any advantage is conferred. If the player has a higher skill level, having them on your side is better than having a random potato even if nobody says anything the entire match. Good players tend to know where they need to go and when they need to go there without anybody having to tell them to do it. MWO, at least in QP, tends to be more about "gamesense" and instincts than coordination.

Exactly. A number of times I've had EmP teammates on my own side. We aren't on comms, aren't sync dropping, hell we don't even know each other is actively online/searching. Yet we end up on the same team due to low population and a match maker that doesn't work. Hell not even EmP teammates - anyone of decent skill if you have two players on a single side (no sync dropping at all, just random chance), if you simply stay near each other you're gonna win as the end result is usually 12-2 or worse as we do exactly what you outlined. Hold a strong position on a map and shoot. Don't NASCAR, rotate it any of the usually dumb stuff most Quick Play players exhibit and this we win... Again without using ANY comms. Just simply shooting.

If players actually shot MORE and ran in circles LESS - they would have more of an impact on the game too.

Anyone that complains about sync dropping being "unfair" won't ever be able to actually prove why. And why is that? comms are OP. If you use them in game you're gonna win because 12 people working together will beat 2 Comp players on the enemy team. Alas teamwork in Quick Play means that you can't "play the game my way" anymore and that upsets people like HammerMaster because his way is not at a team of 12, rather 12 individuals.

HammerMaster, on 27 May 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

You haven't addressed all my points.

What's your actual point though? It's typically about as clear as mud.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 May 2019 - 02:15 PM.

[HammerMaster]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 02:14 PM, said:

Exactly. A number of times I've had EmP teammates on my own side. We aren't on comms, aren't sync dropping, hell we don't even know each other is actively online/searching. Yet we end up on the same team due to low population and a match maker that doesn't work. Hell not even EmP teammates - anyone of decent skill if you have two players on a single side (no sync dropping at all, just random chance), if you simply stay near each other you're gonna win as the end result is usually 12-2 or worse as we do exactly what you outlined. Hold a strong position on a map and shoot. Don't NASCAR, rotate it any of the usually dumb stuff most Quick Play players exhibit and this we win... Again without using ANY comms. Just simply shooting.

If players actually shot MORE and ran in circles LESS - they would have more of an impact on the game too.

Anyone that complains about sync dropping being "unfair" won't ever be able to actually prove why. And why is that? comms are OP. If you use them in game you're gonna win because 12 people working together will beat 2 Comp players on the enemy team. Alas teamwork in Quick Play means that you can't "play the game my way" anymore and that upsets people like HammerMaster because his way is not at a team of 12, rather 12 individuals.

I'm upset? When did I say this?
Seems you are upset when I make suggestions that may challenge your position at staying at the top?
BUT ANYWAY.
Nothing will be done.
I'll not keep poking back and forth with this. Whats the pool on this thread getting locked today?

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

What's your actual point though? It's typically about as clear as mud.

Success!

Edited by HammerMaster, 27 May 2019 - 02:31 PM.

[Sjorpha]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 02:17 PM, said:

Exactly. A number of times I've had EmP teammates on my own side. We aren't on comms, aren't sync dropping, hell we don't even know each other is actively online/searching. Yet we end up on the same team due to low population and a match maker that doesn't work. Hell not even EmP teammates - anyone of decent skill if you have two players on a single side (no sync dropping at all, just random chance), if you simply stay near each other you're gonna win as the end result is usually 12-2 or worse as we do exactly what you outlined.

Anyone that complains about sync dropping being "unfair" won't ever be able to actually prove why.

You're kind of proving it yourself here though.

If those two EMP players (as you claim in the example above) would win nearly every time when on the same team, them sync dropping would give them about 50% of games on the same team and 50% on opposite teams right? So if they win all those matches in which they are on the same team and 50% of the ones in which they are on opposite teams that's a 75% average winrate achieved by syncdropping (3.0 W/L), which would be considered an unfair advantage by most standards.

It's worth noting that a working matchmaker and rating system would eliminate that advantage though, as it would correctly recognise the two EMP players as the two most skilled in each match and therefore put them on opposite teams in every match rather than half the time.

Edited by Sjorpha, 27 May 2019 - 02:53 PM.

[Dryderian]

My opinion? There is a reason that it is called Quick Play and there is another one for groups or several groups.

Edited by Dryderian, 27 May 2019 - 02:52 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Sjorpha, on 27 May 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

You're kind of proving it yourself here though.

If those two EMP players (as you claim in the example above) would win nearly every time when on the same team, them sync dropping would give them about 50% of games on the same team and 50% on opposite teams right? So if they win all those matches in which they are on the same team and 50% of the ones in which they are on opposite teams that's a 75% average winrate achieved by syncdropping (3.0 W/L), which would be considered an unfair advantage by most standards.

It's worth noting that a working matchmaker and rating system would eliminate that advantage though, as it would correctly recognise the two EMP players as the two most skilled in each match and therefore put them on opposite teams in every match rather than half the time.

Except we aren't sync dropping. So there is no advantage.

Any advantage being applied is actually because of a total failure in the Match Maker to do an accurate job of player distribution. We know it doesn't do that, ever. It just looks at Tiers and Weight Class and the first part (Tiers) is not an accurate representation of skill, again something well known.

Like I said earlier. I've seen certain u it's drop in Oceanic. 3-4 of them, same unit, opposite team. They still lose.

There is FAR more at play than a rudimentary 50% chance.

[Bulletsponge0]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

Prove it.

What you've said it just anecdotal, at best.

I regularly see units in Oceanic sync dropping. Might be as many as 3 or 4 of them on the same side.
And guess what? They still lose. I'm sure I've got plenty of screenshots to back that one up.

So your anecdote is better than my anecdote? Interesting.

[justcallme A S H]

Bulletsponge0, on 27 May 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

So your anecdote is better than my anecdote? Interesting.

So prove what you're claiming is not anecdotal. I asked you to prove it and this far you're deflecting.

I'm at work so I am unable to dig through screenshots. I will though when I get home because I know I have them. Anyone that knows me on the forums will know I never make a statement without evidence to back it up as well. So it's a on you to prove your side because I'll easily prove mine.

[Bulletsponge0]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 03:05 PM, said:

So prove what you're claiming is not anecdotal. I asked you to prove it and this far you're deflecting.

I'm at work so I am unable to dig through screenshots. I will though when I get home because I know I have them. Anyone that knows me on the forums will know I never make a statement without evidence to back it up as well. So it's a on you to prove your side because I'll easily prove mine.

Screenshots prove nothing. There are coincidences of people in the same unit being placed on the same team (what you are seemingly talking g about). Then there are the times people actively sync drop (what everyone else is talking about). To sync drop, there has to be so.e sort of coordination, right? The people actively sync dropping are in co.munication with each other, and if successful, are in communication in the match. Communication offers an advantage in a match right? I mean, you've said do yourself. Now, in your average lug drop, there is little communication, and lots of nascaring (again, something you yourself have said). So how would a group of 2 or 3 or 4 who are in active communication with each other NOT be an advantage should they be fortunate enough to have the sync drop work?

[Sjorpha]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 02:57 PM, said:

Except we aren't sync dropping. So there is no advantage.

Any advantage being applied is actually because of a total failure in the Match Maker to do an accurate job of player distribution. We know it doesn't do that, ever. It just looks at Tiers and Weight Class and the first part (Tiers) is not an accurate representation of skill, again something well known.

Like I said earlier. I've seen certain u it's drop in Oceanic. 3-4 of them, same unit, opposite team. They still lose.

There is FAR more at play than a rudimentary 50% chance.

If you aren't sync dropping then you aren't sync dropping, but that seems like a rather trivial point in a thread that is, in fact, about sync dropping.

Saying "there is no advantage in sync dropping because we aren't sync dropping" is quite silly. It's like saying "cigarettes don't cause cancer because I'm not smoking".

Under the current dysfunctional matchmaker, which can't distinguish between good and bad players, a pair of very good players sync dropping get's an advantage from doing so because they would get a significant advantage 50% of their games and no advantage the other 50%, a significant net plus. The better those two players are (the higher they can push their winrate in the 50% of matches they are teamed up) the bigger their advantage of sync dropping would be, to a maximum of guaranteed 75% winrate if they win all matches on the same side. That's just basic math.

Again as I've said in all those posts on this thread, IMO sync dropping is a complete non-issue in MWO, but the reasons for that are different than there being no advantage.

Edited by Sjorpha, 27 May 2019 - 03:21 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Bulletsponge0, on 27 May 2019 - 03:16 PM, said:

Screenshots prove nothing. There are coincidences of people in the same unit being placed on the same team (what you are seemingly talking g about). Then there are the times people actively sync drop (what everyone else is talking about). To sync drop, there has to be so.e sort of coordination, right? The people actively sync dropping are in co.munication with each other, and if successful, are in communication in the match. Communication offers an advantage in a match right? I mean, you've said do yourself. Now, in your average lug drop, there is little communication, and lots of nascaring (again, something you yourself have said). So how would a group of 2 or 3 or 4 who are in active communication with each other NOT be an advantage should they be fortunate enough to have the sync drop work?

Seems you should go and reread what I was saying.

Furthermore I know as FACT the examples I'm providing/referenced earlier of players 3-4 on a single side were indeed sync dropping. How do I know? Because they don't every night. In fact a number of units do in low population times. And you know what? Let them. It's not giving them any advantage so I couldn't care less about it.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about here.

Still awaiting your proof. Suspect you have none as we're up to post 3 without any and just continual deflections.

Sjorpha, on 27 May 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

If you aren't sync dropping then you aren't sync dropping, but that seems like a rather trivial point in a thread that is, in fact, about sync dropping.

Saying "there is no advantage in sync dropping because we aren't sync dropping" is quite silly. It's like saying "cigarettes don't cause cancer because I'm not smoking".

Under the current dysfunctional matchmaker, which can't distinguish between good and bad players, a pair of very good players sync dropping get's an advantage from doing so because they would get a significant advantage 50% of their games and no advantage the other 50%, a significant net plus. The better those two players are (the higher they can push their winrate in the 50% of matches they are teamed up) the bigger their advantage of sync dropping would be, to a maximum of guaranteed 75% winrate if they win all matches on the same side. That's just basic math.

Again as I've said in all those posts on this thread, IMO sync dropping is a complete non-issue in MWO, but the reasons for that are different than there being no advantage.

2 players out of 24.

What if there is another 2-3 decent players thrown into the mix? It's suddenly not a 50/50 and totally skews a simply defined advantage

Edited by justcallme A S H, 27 May 2019 - 03:25 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 03:21 PM, said:

Seems you should go and reread what I was saying.

Furthermore I know as FACT the examples in providing earlier of players 3-4 on a single side were indeed sync dropping. How do I know? Because they don't every night. In fact a number of units do in low population times.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about here.

Still awaiting your proof. Suspect you have none as we're up to post 3 without any and just continual deflections.

Ok, were done here. When you won't acknowledge things you yourself have said and instead simply want to argue in order to feed your own egos it becomes a pointless exercise. So I'll admit, your ablnecdot3s are soooooo much more important than anyone else's. Your opinions are the only ones that matter. (Cor example, it seems you think "advantage" means guaranteeing a victory every time). You're the only one who is ever right and everyone else is always wrong. Nobody but you has any clue how the game operates or is played. There, hope that satisfies your ego because it seems that's what you look for in nearly every thread you post in.

[justcallme A S H]

Makes unfounded claim.
Gets called on it.
Can't back it up with any proof.
Resorts to "I'm done".

Standard.

[Bulletsponge0]

justcallme A S H, on 27 May 2019 - 03:38 PM, said:

Makes unfounded claim.
Gets called on it.
Can't back it up with any proof.
Resorts to "I'm done".

Standard.

I used your own words to demonstrate my point, but you won't acknowledge that.


Standard.

But let me ask, what exactly would you consider "proof"? What would satisfy your giant ego? Screenshots? Lol, you do know a s screenshot doesn't show if it were a coincidence or an active sync drop. Something else?