41 replies to this topic

[RickySpanish]

They favour a different play style, which PGI eschewed in favour of The Long Walk with newer maps. I think the newer design would be better if fighting over objectives actually meant something, then perhaps teams would not just gravitate to the same place each time. Then again, FP has respawns and absent of any coordination the only difference is players end up completing The Long Walk once as a team, and then 3 more times in a nice conga line. With that said, Forest Colony in all its forms needs to be deleted.

[Grus]

justcallme A S H, on 28 May 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

I have a - probably revolutionary suggestion...

If Team 2 and in Charlie lance... Do NOT walk up the hill infront. Turn around and go the back way.

Not hard to use common sense.

Thank me later for basic map movement intelligence.

Is this a "common sense isnt common" thing? Lol

[Lykaon]

When I first started playing MWo we only had Frozen City and Forest Colony (classic) followed up months later by Caustic Valley. It was 8 v 8 then but the way you win matches on these two maps is the same with 8 or 12 players on a team.

You win by playing aggressively and cooperatively.

Modern tactics are basically NASCAR (chase or run away depending on the coin toss) or Hidey Pokey (trade mid range alphas from cover to target in cover until something breaks enough to provide advantage)

Neither of those "tactics" are strong options on Forest colony or Frozen city (classic) .

What is though is aggressive attack and coordinated strikes. But that requires two things players these days can't do anymore.

understand sacrifice
communicate clearly with your team

[Phoenix 72]

Not sure why people are so harsh on this map... I never played in the old times when this map first saw light and I took a 6 week break when it was rereleased, so I only played a few matches on it, but I have not had any problems whatsoever...

The only thing that popped out to me (in the full 3 matches I have done in this map so far): Is it my imagination, or do the people that start on the low ground have a bit of a disadvantage? Of course, it could just be me not knowing the map all that well, yet.

[- World Eater -]

I wish all the maps are as small.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

The6thMessenger, on 28 May 2019 - 05:59 AM, said:

I actually like the classic maps, still nascar, because people.

fixed that for you. other than that I agree: like the classic maps very much.
so much action to be had, it only takes a bit of pushing WASD.

[Battlemaster56]

Classic maps is horrible for 12v12 best for 4v4 off in its own special queue, too small little space for movement just like invasion. And idiots in t1 make believe a ethnic genocide of gamer variety will definitely clean out the morons in this game and many more.

But then agian I only have few maps I actually enjoy even bothering.

[LowSubmarino]

Raudo Testoman, on 28 May 2019 - 05:01 AM, said:

Classic Frozen City map is simply too small for current game environment. I mean 12vs12 and deadlier mechs with improved weaponry.
Matches are 3 minute meat grinders. Its no fun.

Yesterday i tried to do some maneuvering, just to increase my chance to survive. I just got yelled at that "assaults should learn the map... blah blah blah"....

https://aijaa.com/jBBmNv
https://aijaa.com/OVnCxN

3 minutes to go from 0/0 to 9/7.
Haven't gotten match in the classic Forest Colony yet but i suspect it has the same issue. These maps were designed for 8vs8.

I don't want to play these maps.

U kidding? You actually get real firing lines in those tiny maps. In case you didnt realize, it doesnt matter how vast or big mwos maps are. Because it is a circling movement, a very small circle no matter how big the map is. Tiny maps have a far greater chance for some real engagments and trading face to face, someting which basically all mwo players hate. They hate real engaments and just wanne run right side to find targets with their backs to them.

I got some of the best matches last week on classic frozen city. Its one of the very best maps.

And you say the map is too small haha. Why would you want such a giant map like polar, eh? It takes miniutes to reach center only to just run in circles in every single match every time in 100 out of 100 matches. Literally every single time with zero exception. You just waste so many minuntes running up there in slow mechs. Wheres the point?

Instead, in small maps, you dont even have the room to nascar that effectively. At least not as smoothly as in other maps. Its one of the best maps for some real fights. Its not about how long a match is. Its a bout the quality of the fight. I got some of the best fights, most intense fights there.

Weird, how very different ppl perceive the maps.

[FireStoat]

It's a map that discourages mindless nascar & timid LRM use.
Therefore, it's a perfect map.

[Jonathan8883]

I like it. It skips the boring 3-minute "walking uphill in the snow" waste of time that Polar Highlands has. It's a great Quick Play map!

[Vellron2005]

Raudo Testoman, on 28 May 2019 - 05:01 AM, said:

Classic Frozen City map is simply too small for current game environment. I mean 12vs12 and deadlier mechs with improved weaponry.
Matches are 3 minute meat grinders. Its no fun.

Yesterday i tried to do some maneuvering, just to increase my chance to survive. I just got yelled at that "assaults should learn the map... blah blah blah"....

https://aijaa.com/jBBmNv
https://aijaa.com/OVnCxN

3 minutes to go from 0/0 to 9/7.
Haven't gotten match in the classic Forest Colony yet but i suspect it has the same issue. These maps were designed for 8vs8.

I don't want to play these maps.

Wait, you're saying you're NOT enjoying SRM Bomber Online?

Shocking!

What's wrong with you? Are you some kind of a normal person or something!?

[Sable Dove]

Sounds like they need to go back to 8v8 and smaller maps again.

[Raudo Testoman]

justcallme A S H, on 28 May 2019 - 08:59 AM, said:

I have a - probably revolutionary suggestion...

If Team 2 and in Charlie lance... Do NOT walk up the hill infront. Turn around and go the back way.

Not hard to use common sense.

Thank me later for basic map movement intelligence.

Read my first post. I said i tried to do some maneuvering already which didn't chance the outcome of the match.
Might as well place players in to flat 500m x 500m area with no cover and be done with it.

Im always in the C-lance. I don't mind being first one to get shot at when rolling over a hill. My overall survival rate is 33%. I don't mind biting the bullet for the team.
And i usually don't have any issues with nascaring teams, its not that hard to keep up.

But in this map theres nothing to do. Most of the cover is low. And probably already occupied by teammates. And then lights and meds just farm some dmg/score off big guys. Of course the match can go either way....

New mechs and better weapons have been released since 8 vs 8. And the map is just too small for 12 vs 12.

[GoodTry]

I love it. More shooty-shoot less walk walk.

We need more maps of this size!

[Verilligo]

Raudo Testoman, on 29 May 2019 - 04:45 AM, said:

Read my first post. I said i tried to do some maneuvering already which didn't chance the outcome of the match.
Might as well place players in to flat 500m x 500m area with no cover and be done with it.

Im always in the C-lance. I don't mind being first one to get shot at when rolling over a hill. My overall survival rate is 33%. I don't mind biting the bullet for the team.
And i usually don't have any issues with nascaring teams, its not that hard to keep up.

But in this map theres nothing to do. Most of the cover is low. And probably already occupied by teammates. And then lights and meds just farm some dmg/score off big guys. Of course the match can go either way....

New mechs and better weapons have been released since 8 vs 8. And the map is just too small for 12 vs 12.

Stop biting the bullet for the team. That's not your job. I know that sounds counter-intuitive, given you're apparently ALWAYS in an assault, but the job of the assaults is not to go in and die for the team. It's NO ONE'S job to go in and die for the team. Your armor IS a resource that you have and you need to be exposing yourself regularly, but your exposures need to be in the pursuit of killing or otherwise punishing an enemy mech for their bad decisions. Your armor just means that you can take opportunities that you wouldn't in another class, while similarly your low speed and handling means that some engagements are bad ones. Now you CAN use your armor for tank for a teammate if doing so will preserve their firepower in a meaningful way. But you can't do it at the expense of your own until the very, very late game, and then only in some situations.

I think your problem is that, in addition to your willingness to die on a hill in glorious battle like a true Klingon warrior (which you need to stop doing, we're not Klingons), your concept of positioning may be mistaken. In lights, mediums, and even some heavies, you're allowed to be purely reactive in your positioning. In the moment to moment gameplay, you won't be immediately killed if you swiftly rotate to respond to movement of an enemy grouping. With an assault, you need to be thinking about where you should go before you need to be there. On a map like HPG, you have two winning options as an assault, you either need to take the top (preferred) or you need to get around to the enemy's side of the map and then take the top. If the enemy already has three to four mechs up top by the time you reach the ramp because your team is sheepish, you need to be ready to immediately switch to plan B without any hesitation. Quickly punish any enemy mechs you see on the enemy side that aren't up the ramps and then force your team up to the top now that you have a portion of their forces running scared.

On a map like Frozen City Classic, you need to determine WHERE the thrust of the enemy team is located. Your scouts will make you immediately aware of that because wherever the enemy scouts go, the rest of the team is likely to just follow in rotation. So now that you know where the enemy team will be in twenty seconds, you need to place your mech at a position that they would be most vulnerable to attack from when they get there, or from the position that's best defended against them. Then just isolate mechs and eliminate them with whichever mechs are following alongside you. Just randomly maneuvering isn't really positioning, assault gameplay requires some level of prediction. If your prediction ends up wrong, try to figure out why and then modify your response accordingly in the future. Whether it's 8v8 or 12v12 doesn't matter, other than needing to remember more power positions.

[stalima]

The main problem is that assault spawn on skirmish at the ramp of doom, they either need to move the enemies back or the spawn point away.

It is effectively a death sentence starting the assaults there no matter what they have equipped, only enemy incompetence will lose the game when you get the good side since you have a free kill on an entire assault lance.


The other issue is a conceptual one:

A short range mech cannot attack at long range, but can attack at short range.
An LRM mech can attack at long range but cannot attack at short range.
A short range mech can close distance even on long range maps to bring their weapons into effective range.
An LRM mech requires distance or he cannot fight at all and cannot do this on a short range map.

For this reason a short range map is simply unacceptable unless it has alot of obstacles to prevent immediate closing like on canyon network (which is why literally everyone likes canyon)

Edited by stalima, 29 May 2019 - 09:17 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Raudo Testoman, on 29 May 2019 - 04:45 AM, said:

Spoiler

Read my first post. I said i tried to do some maneuvering already which didn't chance the outcome of the match.
Might as well place players in to flat 500m x 500m area with no cover and be done with it.

Im always in the C-lance. I don't mind being first one to get shot at when rolling over a hill. My overall survival rate is 33%. I don't mind biting the bullet for the team.
And i usually don't have any issues with nascaring teams, its not that hard to keep up.

But in this map theres nothing to do. Most of the cover is low. And probably already occupied by teammates. And then lights and meds just farm some dmg/score off big guys. Of course the match can go either way....

New mechs and better weapons have been released since 8 vs 8. And the map is just too small for 12 vs 12.

Look mate - I'm an Assault main - that's my thing. Big, fat & slow - kinda like me really.

I have no issue in that lance on that map. It's all about moving your mech properly and, if needed, using comms to help out a bit.

[Dauntless Blint]

A lot of people think assaults are tanks, (they can) but that's the first mistake. They are glass cannons and ambush platforms.

How much is your armor worth against the whole enemy front?...nothing.
How much is your armor and firepower worth against a single target ...everything.
Try to force an over-match.
If you die to rotation over and over in the opening minutes, ignore the abusers and try to either cut straight across the center or even sit out a rotation in a hidden but threatening location to rejoin with the front in a pincer action.
Try to ignore the pair pressure to share your armor at the start of the game unless you got buddies who have your back in a committed push.

That used to get me results. Pugging Assaults is possibly the greatest challenge in the game sometimes.Good luck.

Edited by Dauntless Blint, 30 May 2019 - 06:02 AM.

[Vincent DIFrancesco]

stalima, on 29 May 2019 - 09:16 AM, said:

The other issue is a conceptual one:

A short range mech cannot attack at long range, but can attack at short range.
An LRM mech can attack at long range but cannot attack at short range.
A short range mech can close distance even on long range maps to bring their weapons into effective range.
An LRM mech requires distance or he cannot fight at all and cannot do this on a short range map.

Your conceptual issue actually invalidates your point that longer range mechs require a long range map. I will focus on the highlighted lines.

In one statement, you claim the short range mech will be able to close the range, regardless of map size. If that is the case, the long range mech will always have the disadvantage, regardless of map size. Without a means to impede the brawler, the sniper will inevitably have an enemy in their face.

The solution to this is not map size. That will never save you. [And experience has borne that out.] The solutions are as follows:

In group play, make sure you have a team that can cover the long range support, letting you do your job. This is just as feasible on the smaller maps as it is on the large ones.

In solo play, don't boat. You can't guarantee your team will support you in the solo queue. So make sure your builds aren't completely screwed when people are coming to eat your face. Have some secondary weapons, or some speed. Something other than LOLLRM100 on a 48kph assault. It may not be as effective on paper. But at least it should be a bit less frustrating.

[AncientRaig]

Yeah, it's GREAT! As a brawler at heart, there's nothing more mind-numbingly boring than sitting behind a building or a hill for the first 5-10 minutes of a game waiting for the peek and poke to end so I can finally start playing the game. Maps like Frozen City Classic are so much fun because the action is almost instant. I don't have to wait around for most of the match for the fight to come to my Hunchback, because the teams engage so much earlier. It's amazing, and it's something I've been missing ever since they reworked these wonderful old maps. And honestly, these maps are like lean meat. All the fat of the bigger maps is cut away, leaving only the raw gameplay. Large, open maps are a lie because fights always happen in the same small place, so why not make the map around that place? Really, the only issue I've encountered so far is the spawns on Forest Colony Classic, which sometimes allow the teams to engage each other literally the second after both sides power on. But that's reliant on game mode.