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Spot Target Wall Hack...


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#1 Menas

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:22 AM

Hello forumites, I've been playing for years but don't post much. Recently though the spot target wall hack 'feature' has been beginning to bother me. A lot. Why when no mech on your team has line of sight do you get to see where an enemy mech is going for the next 10 seconds just because someone pressed a button on the keyboard? You don't even need to target a mech to activate it. Is space magic involved?

In my opinion it's a badly implemented feature that makes the game less fun and less challenging. Less fun when you're chasing other mechs and don't have to really think about how to find them because you can wall hack them. And less fun when you're on the other end trying to save your skin (or metal rear plating).

It also makes no logical sense whatsoever. (And yes I'm aware that this is a game of giant stompy futuristic lazor-firing dakka-spewing missile-launching war machines, so logical sense is relative...)

tl;dr version: Spot target wall hacks be damned, Sir!! Damned, I say!!! Grumble grumble...

I'll show myself out now...

#2 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:33 AM

Sensors dont lose lock so fast?

#3 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:38 AM

sorry, but you lost me at "spot target wall hack" ..
wait till you discover the
"comms voiphack"
"red square targeting hack"
"minimap movement hack"
...

I'm sure there are more, but why bother ;)

#4 TheCaptainJZ

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:47 AM

Are you talking about the command wheel feature to mark an enemy cause i'm confused what you are talking about.

#5 Nightbird

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:52 AM

View PostTheCaptainJZ, on 12 June 2019 - 07:47 AM, said:

Are you talking about the command wheel feature to mark an enemy cause i'm confused what you are talking about.


The title is SPOT TARGET WALL HACK so I think so

I also agree, it's absolute BS that a voice call out can follow a target better than your sensors

#6 Sjorpha

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:55 AM

I agree, spotted enemy marker shouldn't linger if there is neither Los or targeted.

Yes he's talking about the command wheel "enemy spotted", it gives the ability for the whole team to see where that enemy is on the minimap for a while even if there is no Los or sensor info at all, which doesn't really make sense as command wheel is meant to emulate verbal communication, you shouldn't be able to transfer information you no longer have.

#7 ShiverMeRivets

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:13 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 12 June 2019 - 07:55 AM, said:

I agree, spotted enemy marker shouldn't linger if there is neither Los or targeted.

Yes he's talking about the command wheel "enemy spotted", it gives the ability for the whole team to see where that enemy is on the minimap for a while even if there is no Los or sensor info at all, which doesn't really make sense as command wheel is meant to emulate verbal communication, you shouldn't be able to transfer information you no longer have.

and maintaining missile lock on a target without LOS to anything, when that target did not invest in radar deprivation? Doesn’t that bother you?
Both are sensor-tech “magic” in the service of gameplay. Odd but legit.

Edited by ShiverMeRivets, 12 June 2019 - 08:14 AM.


#8 dario03

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:28 AM

It should be changed so that it drops once LOS is broken, or changes the icon to something that indicates last seen position.

#9 VonBruinwald

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 09:56 AM

View PostSjorpha, on 12 June 2019 - 07:55 AM, said:

I agree, spotted enemy marker shouldn't linger if there is neither Los or targeted.

Yes he's talking about the command wheel "enemy spotted", it gives the ability for the whole team to see where that enemy is on the minimap for a while even if there is no Los or sensor info at all, which doesn't really make sense as command wheel is meant to emulate verbal communication, you shouldn't be able to transfer information you no longer have.


As an emulation of a verbal command it's rather poor. With actual verbal command you can call-out multiple targets simultaneously. With "Enemy spotted" you can only mark one, and you need your cross-hairs dead on it.

If "Enemy spotted" marked multiple targets within, say, a 30 degree cone of the crosshair then I'd be fine with losing the mini-map pip when they break los. Either that or it needs to automatically require the target throughout the match when LOS resumes, until either the target is destroyed or another selected.

#10 Anomalocaris

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 12:27 PM

View PostShiverMeRivets, on 12 June 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:

and maintaining missile lock on a target without LOS to anything, when that target did not invest in radar deprivation? Doesn’t that bother you?
Both are sensor-tech “magic” in the service of gameplay. Odd but legit.


There are some critical differences though. The "target spotted" mechanic can also be used against ECM mechs that are spotted visibly but not on sensors. It completely defeats ECM from a spotting perspective. You will know where that ECM mech is going for the next 10 seconds even if he breaks vision.

Also, target decay and radar deprivation are skills that require investment by the player. I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to invest 5-10 points into a spotting skill that allows you to mark targets for a small amount of time. But a simply command wheel click that reveals your movement for 10 seconds with no investment (which is much longer than any target decay time even with full investment) is too much IMO. I think it was a mistake on PGI's part and should be reversed, not that it'll happen in the current environment.

#11 Weeny Machine

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 12:48 PM

View PostMenas, on 12 June 2019 - 07:22 AM, said:

Hello forumites, I've been playing for years but don't post much. Recently though the spot target wall hack 'feature' has been beginning to bother me. A lot. Why when no mech on your team has line of sight do you get to see where an enemy mech is going for the next 10 seconds just because someone pressed a button on the keyboard? You don't even need to target a mech to activate it. Is space magic involved?

In my opinion it's a badly implemented feature that makes the game less fun and less challenging. Less fun when you're chasing other mechs and don't have to really think about how to find them because you can wall hack them. And less fun when you're on the other end trying to save your skin (or metal rear plating).

It also makes no logical sense whatsoever. (And yes I'm aware that this is a game of giant stompy futuristic lazor-firing dakka-spewing missile-launching war machines, so logical sense is relative...)

tl;dr version: Spot target wall hacks be damned, Sir!! Damned, I say!!! Grumble grumble...

I'll show myself out now...


It is especially bad for light mechs. Of course heavy and assault pilots and therefore their PGI parenting department approve that.

#12 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 01:00 PM

View PostShiverMeRivets, on 12 June 2019 - 08:13 AM, said:

and maintaining missile lock on a target without LOS to anything, when that target did not invest in radar deprivation? Doesn’t that bother you?
Both are sensor-tech “magic” in the service of gameplay. Odd but legit.


There's nothing inherently crazy about a missile maintaining target lock when an enemy breaks LOS with the shooter. If anything, the fact that we have to sit there and hold crosshairs to target for several seconds before launching AND during the entirety of the missile's flight is the crazy part.

#13 Jman5

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 04:56 PM

Yeah, I think most everyone agrees with you. It should drop when the last player loses target. One thing I would add is that I think it should re-apply if the spotted mech pops back into LoS before it would have naturally run out.

One of the upsides to this if we're no longer worried about it tracking you under cover is that you could then up the timer to something like 10-15 seconds. Also when you take away the tracking part of it, I think people will spam it less and actually use it more for its intended purpose.

Edited by Jman5, 12 June 2019 - 04:58 PM.


#14 YueFei

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:10 PM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 12 June 2019 - 01:00 PM, said:


There's nothing inherently crazy about a missile maintaining target lock when an enemy breaks LOS with the shooter. If anything, the fact that we have to sit there and hold crosshairs to target for several seconds before launching AND during the entirety of the missile's flight is the crazy part.


Uh, why is that crazy? That's how missiles behave in real life.

In real life, up until the missile gets close enough to the target to use its own radar guidance, it's relying on data-link from the launching platform. The missile's own radar is tiny compared to the launching platform's.

Edited by YueFei, 12 June 2019 - 06:11 PM.


#15 Prototelis

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:31 PM

The crazy part is that they don't just have a satellite or command ship orbiting the planet giving out non-stop locks.

#16 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 10:10 PM

View PostYueFei, on 12 June 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:


Uh, why is that crazy? That's how missiles behave in real life.

In real life, up until the missile gets close enough to the target to use its own radar guidance, it's relying on data-link from the launching platform. The missile's own radar is tiny compared to the launching platform's.


Guided missiles use all kinds of techniques to track a target, some of which require communication with the shooter and constant LOS between shooter and target (like the TOW), and some of which do not (like the Javelin). In any case, this isn't real life, so such comparisons can be thrown out.

Requiring you to sit and stare at a target for several seconds before firing means the mech is acquiring targeting data that has to be fed to the missile in the launcher. That's all well and good. However, requiring you or a spotter to maintain LOS means that targeting data is somehow being fed to the missiles mid-flight. If so, then why do I have to wait for lock before firing?

Either you make me acquire target lock so the missile gets to the target on its own, or you let me launch immediately and let me guide the missile along the way. There's no reason to make me do both.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 12 June 2019 - 10:15 PM.


#17 YueFei

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 11:08 PM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 12 June 2019 - 10:10 PM, said:

Guided missiles use all kinds of techniques to track a target, some of which require communication with the shooter and constant LOS between shooter and target (like the TOW), and some of which do not (like the Javelin). In any case, this isn't real life, so such comparisons can be thrown out.

Requiring you to sit and stare at a target for several seconds before firing means the mech is acquiring targeting data that has to be fed to the missile in the launcher. That's all well and good. However, requiring you or a spotter to maintain LOS means that targeting data is somehow being fed to the missiles mid-flight. If so, then why do I have to wait for lock before firing?

Either you make me acquire target lock so the missile gets to the target on its own, or you let me launch immediately and let me guide the missile along the way. There's no reason to make me do both.


Uhm.... that's how air to air missiles work. I dunno why you say something is "crazy" when there's a real life example of something behaving exactly like that.

The launching aircraft must maintain lock with its own radar for most of the missile's flight towards its target, with the missile updating its course via data-link from the aircraft. That's why the launching aircraft can't just shoot and then bug out. Well, it could do that, but then the missile will just fly "blind" to the target's last known location.

It's only in the terminal phase when the missile gets close enough to the target that it can lock on with its own radar.

Like I said, this makes sense. The missile's own radar is tiny compared to the fighter's radar.

It's just bizarre that you'd call this "crazy", when Battletech is chock full of behaviors which are literally crazy, but this is not one of them.

Edited by YueFei, 12 June 2019 - 11:09 PM.


#18 Lykaon

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:02 AM

View PostYueFei, on 12 June 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:


It's just bizarre that you'd call this "crazy", when Battletech is chock full of behaviors which are literally crazy, but this is not one of them.




Like 14 ton ballistic cannons that have one third the range of a 6 ton ballistic cannon? Does an AC20 propel bowling balls down the barrel with a spring?

#19 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 02:13 AM

View PostYueFei, on 12 June 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:


Uhm.... that's how air to air missiles work. I dunno why you say something is "crazy" when there's a real life example of something behaving exactly like that.

The launching aircraft must maintain lock with its own radar for most of the missile's flight towards its target, with the missile updating its course via data-link from the aircraft. That's why the launching aircraft can't just shoot and then bug out. Well, it could do that, but then the missile will just fly "blind" to the target's last known location.

It's only in the terminal phase when the missile gets close enough to the target that it can lock on with its own radar.

Like I said, this makes sense. The missile's own radar is tiny compared to the fighter's radar.

It's just bizarre that you'd call this "crazy", when Battletech is chock full of behaviors which are literally crazy, but this is not one of them.


What you're describing is a radar homing system, which is only one type of A2A missile guidance. Heat seekers don't need radar at all.

It's also not how LRMs work. Your standard LRM is a self-guided missile, so it should not need further communication with the launcher in-flight.

And tech aside, requiring a lengthy target lock sequence before firing and during flight just encourages bad play. Having to stare at the target for such a prolonged period means the best way to use LRMs is to piggyback off friendly targeting just so you're not instantly cored by return fire that you can't twist against.

#20 Willard Phule

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 06:13 AM

View Postdario03, on 12 June 2019 - 09:28 AM, said:

It should be changed so that it drops once LOS is broken, or changes the icon to something that indicates last seen position.


So....putting SP into target retention should be ignored. Nice thinking.

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 13 June 2019 - 02:13 AM, said:


What you're describing is a radar homing system, which is only one type of A2A missile guidance. Heat seekers don't need radar at all.

It's also not how LRMs work. Your standard LRM is a self-guided missile, so it should not need further communication with the launcher in-flight.

And tech aside, requiring a lengthy target lock sequence before firing and during flight just encourages bad play. Having to stare at the target for such a prolonged period means the best way to use LRMs is to piggyback off friendly targeting just so you're not instantly cored by return fire that you can't twist against.


Most elite, world class LRM masters don't realize that getting line of sight speeds up the lock, nor do they realize that you can actually fire them without a lock.





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