86 replies to this topic

[- World Eater -]

Look! Another thread with 6th and Khobai going at it again.

mjpopcorn.gif

[FupDup]

- World Eater -, on 27 June 2019 - 10:45 AM, said:

Look! Another thread with 6th and Khobai going at it again.

mjpopcorn.gif

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:50 AM, said:

Thats like saying replacing the AC2 with the Light AC2 wouldnt be a buff.

If PPC+Cap replaces PPC as an overall better weapon then its a buff.

Replacing the AC2 with a Light AC2 would not be a buff. The Light AC2 would have different stats than the AC2 does. Less range, maybe less velocity, something to balance out the fact that it weighs two tons less. That is not a buff, that is a trade-off. Replacing PPCs with PPC+Cap is not buffing PPCs. It is making a trade-off that removes one weapon to add another. How do you not understand this? You cannot REPLACE a thing and yet say you are buffing that thing.

It is because of this that you are not JUST making an XML edit to add these weapons. You are not changing the balance of that which already exists, you are DISRUPTING balance by putting a different thing in its place. Right now, all PPCs are balanced against each other. The balance may be poor, but PGI has clearly tried to align them with one another. Now you remove one of those things and throw something in that makes ENTIRELY different trade-offs. That requires MORE time to balance than a simple alteration to one of the existing weapons.

I don't even mind the idea of having PPC+Cap, to be honest. I would love for all kinds of extra weapons and pieces of tech to be added to the game. But that isn't going to happen. The best we can hope for is small shifts in balance of already existing weapons. To suggest anything else at this point in time is just a distraction.

[Khobai]

Verilligo, on 27 June 2019 - 10:50 AM, said:

Replacing the AC2 with a Light AC2 would not be a buff. The Light AC2 would have different stats than the AC2 does. Less range, maybe less velocity, something to balance out the fact that it weighs two tons less

No lol. The Light AC2 doesnt need anything to balance out the fact it weighs two tons less. Because the AC2 is a terrible weapon for weighing 6 tons.

If you tried to keep the AC2 in the game and balance the LAC2 against the AC2 by nerfing all of the LAC2's stats youd just end up with two terrible weapons instead of one good weapon.

The AC2 is a fundamentally flawed weapon because it weighs 6 tons. Nothing can fix that short of removing it and replacing it with a lighter weapon. Replacing the AC2 with the Light AC2 which would be two tons lighter but otherwise have the same stats would absolutely be a straight up buff. And it would be a better balanced version of the AC2 because 4 tons is all the AC2 ever shouldve weighed in the first place.

Likewise giving all PPCs built-in PPC capacitor functionality at no additional tonnage or crit slot cost would be a straight buff to PPCs. There is absolutely no reason capacitors need to cost 1 ton and 1 crit, they could simply be incorporated into the existing PPCs at no additional cost.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 11:11 AM.

[MechaBattler]

With the changes in dissipation I think there is room to improve on ppcs.

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

No lol. The Light AC2 doesnt need anything to balance out the fact it weighs two tons less. Because the AC2 is a terrible weapon for weighing 6 tons.

...I feel like you're trolling me. No one can possibly be this dumb. I'm sorry, the AC2 is a good weapon and has proven itself to be a good weapon on more than just one or two chassis. Even the cAC2 is a good weapon on certain mechs. Like... have you never used an AC2 boat? Jagermech? Annihilator? Vapor Eagle? This isn't just me saying so, this is generally agreed upon.

[Khobai]

Verilligo, on 27 June 2019 - 11:02 AM, said:

...I feel like you're trolling me. No one can possibly be this dumb. I'm sorry, the AC2 is a good weapon and has proven itself to be a good weapon on more than just one or two chassis. Even the cAC2 is a good weapon on certain mechs. Like... have you never used an AC2 boat? Jagermech? Annihilator? Vapor Eagle? This isn't just me saying so, this is generally agreed upon.

Its only a good weapon on mechs that have the tonnage and are heavily quirked for it. Which is extremely niche. If you put AC2s on mechs without quirks for them theyre really not that good. And boated in quantity the AC5 is generally way better because its considerably more heat efficient.

The whole point is to make it good without being entirely dependent on quirks.

The point is to bring balance to Clan vs IS tech without IS tech being entirely dependent on quirks.

Because quirks are a completely lopsided way of balancing the two tech bases. Also the entire idea that certain weapons work significantly better on some mechs than others is completely absurd. Using quirks as a bandaid to sloppily balance clan tech was always one of PGI's worst ideas and a perversion of the true purpose of quirks.

The point of adding the Light AC2 is also to decrease the tonnage of the AC2 so lighter mechs have better access to the weapon. The AC2 at 6 tons is prohibitively heavy for lighter mechs to carry. Thats a fact. Giving lighter mechs ballistic alternatives to the machine gun such as the Light AC2 would only be a good thing.

Similarly PPCs have the same problem of being entirely dependent on quirks. PPCs are absolutely terrible without quirks. And that really shouldnt be the case. Quirks have caused more problems than theyve solved IMO.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 11:39 AM.

[Ignatius Audene]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

No lol. The Light AC2 doesnt need anything to balance out the fact it weighs two tons less. Because the AC2 is a terrible weapon for weighing 6 tons.

If you tried to keep the AC2 in the game and balance the LAC2 against the AC2 by nerfing all of the LAC2's stats youd just end up with two terrible weapons instead of one good weapon.

The AC2 is a fundamentally flawed weapon because it weighs 6 tons. Nothing can fix that short of removing it and replacing it with a lighter weapon. Replacing the AC2 with the Light AC2 which would be two tons lighter but otherwise have the same stats would absolutely be a straight up buff. And it would be a better balanced version of the AC2 because 4 tons is all the AC2 ever shouldve weighed in the first place.

Likewise giving all PPCs built-in PPC capacitor functionality at no additional tonnage or crit slot cost would be a straight buff to PPCs. There is absolutely no reason capacitors need to cost 1 ton and 1 crit, they could simply be incorporated into the existing PPCs at no additional cost.

Looks like some one missed the ac2 meta.

[FupDup]

There are ways to let the LAC/2 do its thing of buffing light and medium dakka mechs without removing or invalidating the AC/2.

AC/2:
Velocity: 2200 (the nerf was stupid, if it's really such an issue in Solaris then just give it a nerf that only applies in Solaris just like the Flamer; also Solaris is irrelevant to gameplay balance in a 12v12 team game)
Cooldown: 0.72 (unchanged)
Heat: 0.5 (unchanged)
Range: 720m (unchanged)

LAC/2:
Velocity: 1,500
Cooldown: 0.72 (same)
Heat: 1.0
Range: 540m
Burst: 2 shells for 1 damage each

Might need to bring the heat up a wee bit more or add a third shell to the burst, maybe shave like 100 m/s off the velocity, but the general idea is that a big mech with spare tonnage is gonna value all of the non-tonnage attributes of the AC/2 while a light or medium is obviously gonna flock to the LAC/2 because they need tonnage more than anything else.

You could technically use the saved tonnage to add more DHS to offset the higher heat...but that would cost critslots. Something that big mechs run out of real quick.

If all else fails then we could even give it a Ghost Heat cap of 3 or 4 as a last resort (which wouldn't have much effect on a light or medium since they couldn't mount that many in the first place).

Edited by FupDup, 27 June 2019 - 11:55 AM.

[Verilligo]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

Its only a good weapon on mechs that have the tonnage and are heavily quirked for it. Which is extremely niche. If you put AC2s on mechs without quirks for them theyre really not that good. And boated in quantity the AC5 is generally way better because its considerably more heat efficient.

The whole point is to make it good without being entirely dependent on quirks.

The point is to bring balance to Clan vs IS tech without IS tech being entirely dependent on quirks.

Because quirks are a completely lopsided way of balancing the two tech bases. Also the entire idea that certain weapons work significantly better on some mechs than others is completely absurd. Using quirks as a bandaid to sloppily balance clan tech was always one of PGI's worst ideas and a perversion of the true purpose of quirks.

The point of adding the Light AC2 is also to decrease the tonnage of the AC2 so lighter mechs have better access to the weapon. The AC2 at 6 tons is prohibitively heavy for lighter mechs to carry. Thats a fact. Giving lighter mechs ballistic alternatives to the machine gun such as the Light AC2 would only be a good thing.

What are you even talking about? Why are you bringing up quirks? The AC2 isn't good because of quirks, the AC2 is good because of its base DPS, heat efficiency, range bracket, being only one crit slot, and its single shell nature. The AC5 is picked for ENTIRELY different reasons than the AC2 is picked. Why are you bringing up tech balance when that contributes nothing to how good the AC2 is? And yes, everyone knows the LAC2 would be great for using on lighter mechs. Also water is wet and the AC2 is still a good weapon no matter whether the LAC2 does or does not exist.

Why are you even talking balance at all when you don't play the game? You aren't interested in MWO, shoo.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

its not a completely different thread at all though. Were discussing PPC balance. PPC capacitors are a way of helping to balance PPCs while retaining their role as energy barrage weapons. Its 100% relevant.

Not really, and if anything It can open a new can of worms. That being said, I don't disagree with the PPC Capacitor, however the idea of rebalancing is that you're fixing the standing of the weapons by default.

If you just add PPC capacitor, you just plain made non-ppc-capacitored PPCs obsolete. The ERPPC still has terrible damage/heat ratio, LPPC is still anemic, SNPPC is still too hot for it's range-band, PPC is still too meh -- and now your solution is just some one-ton equipment you intend to force to players.

You didn't solved anything, you just buried them.

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 09:31 AM, said:

You just dont like that its better than your idea.

Well, I'm not completely disagreeing with the PPC Capacitor idea, the problem is that It doesn't really addresses the balance.

Curccu, on 27 June 2019 - 09:39 AM, said:

And that is correct.

There are like 500-1000 threads like this from 6th and without any real knowledge I dare to say none of them have ever lead to implementation (prove me wrong if you can).

It's not the implementation, it's opening up a discussion.

Cunningham's Law?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 June 2019 - 03:36 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The AC/2 is only good when massed. Nobody cares about a pair, or even a trio, of AC/2 unless it's quirked (i.e. Blackjack, Vindicator). You need at least four before anybody takes any notice, and the best 'Mechs use five or more. Even the Jagermech has a 10% cooldown quirk on it that helps it stand.

[Steel Raven]

One thing I noticed during the Weapons Master Challenge was my IS ER PPC damage wasn't being recorded as divisible of 10 damage but rather 8, 9 ect. So the game is treating the PPC like a LBX without any of the benefits which is unacceptable combined with the other handicaps. I can only chalk this up to the Cry-Engine piss poor management of particle effects that hinder PPCs passing over terrain and the god awful hit reg.

[Khobai]

Y E O N N E, on 27 June 2019 - 03:34 PM, said:

The AC/2 is only good when massed. Nobody cares about a pair, or even a trio, of AC/2 unless it's quirked (i.e. Blackjack, Vindicator). You need at least four before anybody takes any notice, and the best 'Mechs use five or more. Even the Jagermech has a 10% cooldown quirk on it that helps it stand.

Obviously you need to boat them. They only do 2 damage each.

The issue is at 6 tons each, boating them is limited to mechs that have 30+ tons to spare on weapons/ammo.

If that was reduced to 4 tons, then mechs that are 5-10 tons lighter would also be able to boat them. Maybe even 15 tons lighter if caseless ammo was added as an option.

The purpose of adding the Light AC2 would be to improve the ballistic options available to lighter mechs. Theres really no downside to that. What doesnt make sense is keeping the 6 ton AC2 in the game when lighter alternatives exist.

The6thMessenger, on 27 June 2019 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you just add PPC capacitor, you just plain made non-ppc-capacitored PPCs obsolete.

huh? with my suggestion there wouldnt be any non-ppc capacitored PPCs. If you actually read my suggestion (and its clear you didnt), the whole suggestion was to incorporate the functionality of PPC capacitors into ALL PPCs for free at zero cost in tonnage or crits.

Its not necessary to have separate PPCs with capacitors and PPCs without capacitors when the only difference is literally a meaningless 1 ton and 1 crit slot. Its easier to just give all PPCs capacitors for free and make it a function of the base weapon. It helps create more of a unique design space for PPCs while also buffing them and making them more flexible.

Edited by Khobai, 27 June 2019 - 07:04 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

The purpose of adding the Light AC2 would be to improve the ballistic options available to lighter mechs. Theres really no downside to that. What doesnt make sense is keeping the 6 ton AC2 in the game when lighter alternatives exist.

The Standard AC2? The one that is used for long-range plinking? Having a lighter shorter-ranged version will eliminate that?

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 06:51 PM, said:

huh? with my suggestion there wouldnt be any non-ppc capacitored PPCs. If you actually read my suggestion (and its clear you didnt), the whole suggestion was to incorporate the functionality of PPC capacitors into ALL PPCs for free at zero cost in tonnage or crits.

Its not necessary to have separate PPCs with capacitors and PPCs without capacitors when the only difference is literally a meaningless 1 ton and 1 crit slot. Its easier to just give all PPCs capacitors for free and make it a function of the base weapon. It helps create more of a unique design space for PPCs while also buffing them and making them more flexible.

Lol, just lol. Granted, that's actually a bit better.

But all I could think is you also making HGR having 22 damage but have increased range, basically supplanting the current HGR with the Improved HGR. It's also the same case as buffing AC5 to do 10 damage/shot -- sure it's better, and people would flock to it, but it's because it's overpowered.

So basically you wanted to turn PPCs basically Gauss but hot-garbage. Waaaat? That's like saying lets just incorporate Artemis on all Missile weapons for free -- i mean we did it on ATMs right? You might as well just give every IS TC1, because is at an inconsequential 1 slot and 1 ton. You are also ruining the current use of PPCs, I mean the HPPC if anything is fine -- hell, it's the golden PPC standard, but you want to have it do 22.5 damage, while giving it charge-up that ruins the snap-fire ability and making it less-reactive.

The point of the PPC Capacitor is that you pay for something, to get something, just as Artemis you pay 1 and 1 slot for an improvement, you also pay 1 ton and in most cases 1 slot to get that double-tap for the UACs.

Giving it for free, while adding more front-loaded damage for what is basically less tonnage already is just broken. The last thing we need is more powercreep, and you just wanted to do that for free.

PPC Warrior online bro!

Granted, theoretically, it could be balanced, it's a matter of how it's being done after all. But again, and again, with your approach, doubling-down on the concept is not necessarily the right response. At least my idea of 2.5s CD for the LPPC results in higher DPS which would be valuable at all weight classes, and provides better synchronicity with AC5s and AC10s, which if you don't know PPCs and ACs are quite good pairings.

The only "free" equipment that should ever be have is CASE, sure as hell IS Case is worthless.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 June 2019 - 09:12 PM.

[East Indy]

Heat can differentiate one PPC from the other, but the class loses out to lasers because of velocity. The current skill floor is too high to justify the attempt at PPFLD for most players.

[The6thMessenger]

East Indy, on 28 June 2019 - 04:03 AM, said:

Heat can differentiate one PPC from the other, but the class loses out to lasers because of velocity. The current skill floor is too high to justify the attempt at PPFLD for most players.

People are nailing PPC shots fine.

The Lasers loses out with exposure time, due to the burn, whereas the PPCs serve peekaboo shots rather well.

[Daurock]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 02:56 AM, said:

I disagree that heat is the problem with PPCs. High heat SHOULD be one of the defining characteristics of PPCs. Its what separates them from lasers. If you start significantly lowering the heat on PPCs then theres less reason to use lasers.

Instead of decreasing heat on PPCs, PPCs should instead be buffed in other ways so theyre worth the high amounts of heat they produce. PPCs should be both facemeltingly hot and powerful.

.. PPC Cap Stuff....

Unlike most, I hear what you're saying here, and actually agree with it. The PPC Should be, a Face-Meltingly Hot, Face-Meltingly powerful weapon. Lowering the heat to similar level of other weapons just homogenizes it, and makes pushes it into the Same Role as the laser weaponry, leaving the two to compete, and basically leaving which one gets used at all to the balance gods.


However, I think there's ways to buff the PPC, so that it both remains powerful, and retains a unique place among energy weapons - and it's not all that difficult, actually. It doesn't need a PPCCap (Or at least doesn't need to be labeled as such) to do that.

Imagine for a moment, that they didn't add a new weapon, but instead they simply increased the heat, and increased the damage by a similar amount, similar to what the ppc capacitor does. (i.e. A straight up damage buff) The Standard isPPC at 15 Damage/15 heat (So basically a 3 ton lighter Heavy PPC) would be a far more powerful, arguably overpowered weapon in today's game. That's Even with the fact that it'd be quite a bit hotter, and have a much slower re-fire rate due to that increased heat. Instead of a 2xPPC build that lacks alpha compared to a 3xLL build, it would now exceed it, allowing it to be the weapon of choice for a hit and run, or sniping attack. However, it still loses pretty handily in any drawn out fight due to the heat profile being still awful, keeping a purpose for the lasers a as well.

Now, that's not to say that the thing needs a huge increase like that - a 50% increase is absolutely massive, and presents a whole slew of other concerns in the grand scheme of things. However, it does illustrate how one can keep the weapon unique from other energy weaponry in role, (and not just PPFLD vs DoT) and keep it unique, yet powerful.

If the PPC Cap gets added to the game, I'd like to see the thing have other unique features that inprove the depth and variety, instead of using it as a way to generate yet another flavor of the same weapon. A couple of examples of increased depth without cookie-cutter weapons would be A charge-up mechanic like Gauss, in exchange for yet more damage, or perhaps making the PPCCap spread out the heat build-up over a few seconds instead of instantly. Something like that would improve depth, which is what i think we should be looking for when adding new equipment to the game.

Edited by Daurock, 28 June 2019 - 07:04 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Khobai, on 27 June 2019 - 11:17 AM, said:

Its only a good weapon on mechs that have the tonnage and are heavily quirked for it. Which is extremely niche. If you put AC2s on mechs without quirks for them theyre really not that good. And boated in quantity the AC5 is generally way better because its considerably more heat efficient. The whole point is to make it good without being entirely dependent on quirks. The point is to bring balance to Clan vs IS tech without IS tech being entirely dependent on quirks. Because quirks are a completely lopsided way of balancing the two tech bases. Also the entire idea that certain weapons work significantly better on some mechs than others is completely absurd. Using quirks as a bandaid to sloppily balance clan tech was always one of PGI's worst ideas and a perversion of the true purpose of quirks. The point of adding the Light AC2 is also to decrease the tonnage of the AC2 so lighter mechs have better access to the weapon. The AC2 at 6 tons is prohibitively heavy for lighter mechs to carry. Thats a fact. Giving lighter mechs ballistic alternatives to the machine gun such as the Light AC2 would only be a good thing. Similarly PPCs have the same problem of being entirely dependent on quirks. PPCs are absolutely terrible without quirks. And that really shouldnt be the case. Quirks have caused more problems than theyve solved IMO.

So far, all I've seen is improvement/change ideas for IS tech, most of which simply won't happen because it's either beyond the dev's ability or the game engine's.

Wouldn't it simply be easier to double the damage and halve the heat on all IS weapons as well as doing the opposite for the Clans? I mean, the ultimate point of all these suggestions is to make IS weapons equal to or better than anything Clan. I know that's not cannon, but neither is 80% of anything to do with MWO.

[Tarogato]

Pro-tip: show the 'before' AND 'after' stats. Not everybody has all the current stats memorised. I don't know anybody who would.

Just showing your proposed stats and nothing else is kinda meaningless to most people. Myself included, because I gotta go look up the current stats and compare, and it's just not worth my time. =/