86 replies to this topic

[East Indy]

The6thMessenger, on 28 June 2019 - 05:59 AM, said:

People are nailing PPC shots fine.

Which people? The only PPC use at regular-user levels of play involves (fast) ERs on highly mobile 'Mechs. Novelty builds pack Heavy here and there. Light, Snubnose and Standard are rare sights. I'm all for lowering the Snubnose's heat, but heat just isn't the problem, weapon class to weapon class.

[Verilligo]

East Indy, on 28 June 2019 - 09:17 AM, said:

Which people? The only PPC use at regular-user levels of play involves (fast) ERs on highly mobile 'Mechs. Novelty builds pack Heavy here and there. Light, Snubnose and Standard are rare sights. I'm all for lowering the Snubnose's heat, but heat just isn't the problem, weapon class to weapon class.

People are discarding PPCs for reasons other than velocities. Snubs are good on meme builds, the HPPC is a solid weapon for what it does, and the cERPPC is good enough on certain mechs to make up for its cooldown and heat cost. Snubs could use the slight boost, but the other three IS PPCs are just total garbage. The regular IS PPC actually shouldn't be terrible, but it just so happens to land at an awkward position of heat to damage and tonnage that it becomes the generally inferior choice, especially since it has a deadzone. The LPPC is a niche weapon whose niche is much better filled by other options that are, themselves, not plagued by a deadzone. And the IS ERPPC is in the running for the worst weapon in the game.

[Tarogato]

Quit putting lowercase "i" in front of weapons that aren't Improved weapons.
iNarc, iHLL, iHGauss, etc. are all real weapons. Putting "iPPC" suggests "Improved PPC", which is not a real weapon.

---

Your SNPPC velocity buff significantly desyncs it with AC20 and SRMs, thus it's effectively a nerf for most, if not nearly all applications. That you made this change suggests that you yourself don't use the SNPPC and don't know what its place in the game is. That you want to give it a limit of 3x SNPPC without ghost heat is ridiculous. A heat buff is appropriate, the CD buff I feel is strictly unnecessary (actually, rather pointless, since heat is the more limiting factor).

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The biggest problem with the standard PPC right now imo is alpha damage. In fact, even cERPPC is rather lacking in alpha damage in today's meta with so many armour quirked and skilled mechs - Summoner used to be top of the meta, now it hits like a wet noodle and is rarely employed.

The whole role of PPCs is low-exposure pinpoint damage. Right now they have the low-exposure and the pinpoint, but not the damage. A cooldown buff would be inappropriate - straight DPS is the role of pulse lasers. You have to be careful about buffing heat too much, because again it starts to encroach upon the heat-efficient role of the LPL. But a heat buff indeed would be appropriate.

So I think PPC and ERPPC need a 1-damage buff. Alternatively, just completely remove the Survivial skill tree from the game and undo the DHS buff from a half year ago that made DPS builds completely overwhelm PPC builds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A velocity buff for LPPC, PPC, and HPPC would be appropriate. Pretty much all mechs that play anything to do with PPCs comes with velocity quirks of ~20%. Buff all the PPC velocities from 1080 to like 1300 and reduce all the velocity quirks by 10%. Should be a net positive for all mechs, and helps bridge the gap to non-quirked builds.

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LPPC shouldn't get a buff that helps 4LPPC builds. If you want 4LPPC, then equip 2PPC. Period. Instead, LPPC should be for lighter mechs that don't have the tonnage to equip full-on 2PPC and want something with more damage output than 1HPPC.

You buffed LPPC from 4.0 cooldown to 2.5. Instead, I would buff LPPC to from 5.0 to 5.5 damage to match the other PPC buffs (LPPC has really pathetic alpha, it NEEDS more) and start the cooldown buff with 3.5 seconds. Together that's a 25% boost to damage output, a good starting point. It can be taken to 3.0 cooldown later if needed.

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ERPPC should not be allowed to fire three, imo. Although I wouldn't be against reducing the heat penalty by a bit. Give it 11 damage, drop it by 0.5 heat, and go from there. That's a 15% heat efficiency buff to start with and build on as necessary. Can reduce it by another 0.5 heat later as needed. Also moves the alpha damage advantage over HPPC from 800+m to 750+m.

[Tarogato]

Steel Raven, on 27 June 2019 - 04:15 PM, said:

One thing I noticed during the Weapons Master Challenge was my IS ER PPC damage wasn't being recorded as divisible of 10 damage but rather 8, 9 ect. So the game is treating the PPC like a LBX without any of the benefits which is unacceptable combined with the other handicaps. I can only chalk this up to the Cry-Engine piss poor management of particle effects that hinder PPCs passing over terrain and the god awful hit reg.

ERPPC doesn't always deal 10 damage.

If you shoot open structure (a component with no armour remaining) then you deal bonus damage to structure. How much damage you deal is RNG, but it averages out to 10.7 damage.

If you shoot a component that is already destroyed, the dead structure absorbs 60% of the damage. So if you shoot a left torso that is already going, you'll deal 4 damage to the CT.

If the mech has 1 HP left before you kill it, and you hit it with a 10-damage ERPPC, then you will deal 1 damage, because there was only 1 HP left.

cERPPC deals 2.5 damage to adjacent components. Shooting a torso will deal a total of 15 damage, shooting an extremity will deal a total of 12.5.

[Nightbird]

All PPCs are fine.

[Tarogato]

Nightbird, on 28 June 2019 - 01:21 PM, said:

All PPCs are fine.

[Nightbird]

PPCs are perfectly lethal, lighter tonnage AC alternatives. Just because the player base is dumbing down with sandblaster weapons doesn't mean PPCs are bad. It's only good players that use them.

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

Your SNPPC velocity buff significantly desyncs it with AC20 and SRMs, thus it's effectively a nerf for most, if not nearly all applications. That you made this change suggests that you yourself don't use the SNPPC and don't know what its place in the game is. That you want to give it a limit of 3x SNPPC without ghost heat is ridiculous. A heat buff is appropriate, the CD buff I feel is strictly unnecessary (actually, rather pointless, since heat is the more limiting factor).

I use SNPPC, the Velocity however for me isn't that much of a factor considering that the AC20 and SRMs are desynced with this already, chances are either that I'm so close that the desync of velocity wouldn't matter as much as the synced volley of all weapons going out at once, or if at a range I'd be shooting the AC20 and SRMs with far more lead than the SNPPC that it's desynced anyways.

The increased velocity this way is to make SNPPC good at it's own, and that is the direction since 3 of them will be allowed now, and that means you probably need to make it a dedicated build for those 3x SNPPC alone.

That 3x GH is literally in the Community-Driven Balance suggestion. What the hell?

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

The whole role of PPCs is low-exposure pinpoint damage. Right now they have the low-exposure and the pinpoint, but not the damage. A cooldown buff would be inappropriate - straight DPS is the role of pulse lasers. You have to be careful about buffing heat too much, because again it starts to encroach upon the heat-efficient role of the LPL. But a heat buff indeed would be appropriate.

The LPPC and SNPPC are a different case. The SNPPC is competing against Medium Lasers and ER Medium Lasers, it needs the DPS. The LPPC can never compete with the big-leagues, so I am giving it it's own thing, to squeeze more damage out of it is the DPS direction.

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

The biggest problem with the standard PPC right now imo is alpha damage. In fact, even cERPPC is rather lacking in alpha damage in today's meta with so many armour quirked and skilled mechs - Summoner used to be top of the meta, now it hits like a wet noodle and is rarely employed.

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

So I think PPC and ERPPC need a 1-damage buff. Alternatively, just completely remove the Survivial skill tree from the game and undo the DHS buff from a half year ago that made DPS builds completely overwhelm PPC builds. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We could also increase the alpha by allowing more of them to be fired at once. Just a thought.

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

A velocity buff for LPPC, PPC, and HPPC would be appropriate. Pretty much all mechs that play anything to do with PPCs comes with velocity quirks of ~20%. Buff all the PPC velocities from 1080 to like 1300 and reduce all the velocity quirks by 10%. Should be a net positive for all mechs, and helps bridge the gap to non-quirked builds.

I'm going to 1350 like the Community-Driven Balance. My Bad, I forgot about that.

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

LPPC shouldn't get a buff that helps 4LPPC builds. If you want 4LPPC, then equip 2PPC. Period. Instead, LPPC should be for lighter mechs that don't have the tonnage to equip full-on 2PPC and want something with more damage output than 1HPPC.

Well, it should, because it's a bit more of an option to play. The entire scheme also raises the GH, and lowers the penalty to allow the return of Gauss-PPC, it should do the same for LPPCs. After all, the PPC approach is already anemic right?

The 2x PPC is still superior versus 4x LPPC. So yeah.

Tarogato, on 28 June 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

You buffed LPPC from 4.0 cooldown to 2.5. Instead, I would buff LPPC to from 5.0 to 5.5 damage to match the other PPC buffs (LPPC has really pathetic alpha, it NEEDS more) and start the cooldown buff with 3.5 seconds. Together that's a 25% boost to damage output, a good starting point. It can be taken to 3.0 cooldown later if needed.

This approach is literally the same with the Community-Driven Balance, only a bit more. The problem is that, the LPPC is precisely competing with other PPCs, and as you said it's all about the alpha. The LPPC can never compete with the big guys at their thing, so I'm giving it it's own thing.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 28 June 2019 - 03:43 PM.

[LordNothing]

Nightbird, on 28 June 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

PPCs are perfectly lethal, lighter tonnage AC alternatives. Just because the player base is dumbing down with sandblaster weapons doesn't mean PPCs are bad. It's only good players that use them.

cerppcs are good, hppcs are good. is erppc is good in a specific situation (ranged trades) as it should be. the rest of the ppcs are less good. of the less good ppcs, 2 lack purpose and one has purpose but sucks at it. but hey at least they arent lerms.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 June 2019 - 04:24 PM.

[Nightbird]

LordNothing, on 28 June 2019 - 04:21 PM, said:

cerppcs are good, hppcs are good. is erppc is good in a specific situation (ranged trades). the rest of the ppcs are less good.

Sounds like you haven't discovered how to use them. I'll drop a hint, PPCs, SNPPCs, LPPCs are too hot to boat compared to lasers, but sync well with some other cool weapons.

Edited by Nightbird, 28 June 2019 - 04:25 PM.

[LordNothing]

Nightbird, on 28 June 2019 - 04:25 PM, said:

Sounds like you haven't discovered how to use them. I'll drop a hint, PPCs, SNPPCs, LPPCs are too hot to boat compared to lasers, but sync well with some other cool weapons.

im sure they do, and from a weapons integration point of view they all have their uses. but as stand alone weapons they are bottom of the barrel, at least within the ppc family.

[Nightbird]

LordNothing, on 28 June 2019 - 04:46 PM, said:

im sure they do, and from a weapons integration point of view they all have their uses. but as stand alone weapons they are bottom of the barrel, at least within the ppc family.

No they're not.. I mean, try arguing how useful one medium laser is

[LordNothing]

Nightbird, on 28 June 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

No they're not.. I mean, try arguing how useful one medium laser is

yea but thats the laser niche. to be boated in larger numbers. ppcs i see as heavy weapons where a few are supposed to be enough. some ppcs as stand alone weapons are not that grate.

disclaimer im more drunk than last tume\

[Tarogato]

The6thMessenger, on 28 June 2019 - 02:04 PM, said:

That 3x GH is literally in the Community-Driven Balance suggestion. What the hell?

For the record, I fought against that suggestion. Not that I was successful...

Quote

We could also increase the alpha by allowing more of them to be fired at once. Just a thought.

That doesn't buff the weapon. It buffs mechbuilding, opening the doors for potentially undesirable balance complications where the best use-case of the weapon is at its ghost heat limit and anything less than that is sub-par. This is especially true for LPPC. Changing it to a limit of 4 deprives a lot of build options from light mechs (and some assorted heavier mechs as well as a secondary weapon) that would really like to run LPPC with actual worthwhile damage output, and cannot fit all 4LPPC or 2PPC. Because if you allow the limit at 4LPPC, then the strongest builds will be 4LPPC, and you must balance the weapon as a whole around that.

Quote

The 2x PPC is still superior versus 4x LPPC. So yeah.

Under the current game stats? 4LPPC + 2DHS is identical to 2PPC but runs slightly cooler for more slots. The trade off currently between tonnage, and damage and heat output makes them basically identical weapons. The LPPC *needs* to be differentiated from the PPC, not just made to be a superior replica. By allowing 4LPPC, you are making LPPC have the same role in mech building as PPC, and that's just a wholly redundant and pointless endeavour.

Quote

Well, it should, because it's a bit more of an option to play.

To reiterate, by buffing LPPC to a limit of four, you're not adding new options to play. You're just duplicating 2PPC. The limit needs to be 3LPPC, but with buffed stats so the weapon can stand aside having an independent use-case, or in fact creating actual new unique legitimate use-cases (well, rather making the ones that already exist, actually viable instead of useless trash).

[General Solo]

PPC's are fine
Match maker needs a buff

[jjm1]

All IS PPCs all kinda suck a lot of the time. But any PPC can also shine when your enemy isn't equipped to fight against them.

With the clans advanced heatsink cramming technology, there is no contest. I only run IS PPC variants because I like to make the game harder than it needs to be sometimes.

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 29 June 2019 - 11:35 PM, said:

For the record, I fought against that suggestion. Not that I was successful...

Well, I like it.

Tarogato, on 29 June 2019 - 11:35 PM, said:

That doesn't buff the weapon. It buffs mechbuilding, opening the doors for potentially undesirable balance complications where the best use-case of the weapon is at its ghost heat limit and anything less than that is sub-par. This is especially true for LPPC.

HPPC seems to be doing fine at it. Besides, I already handled it by simply decreasing the heat-penalty. The PPCs are still better off with two as far as heat sustainability is concerned. But honestly, I just don't think that a 14-ton investment is something we should expect to be that effective in the first place -- as in I don't expect PPCs to be competitive to a 2x HPPC at all. And that's the problem, it's going to be competing with the HPPC in it's niche in the first place, that is why I was pushing for LPPCs at the DPS route.

Tarogato, on 29 June 2019 - 11:35 PM, said:

Changing it to a limit of 4 deprives a lot of build options from light mechs (and some assorted heavier mechs as well as a secondary weapon) that would really like to run LPPC with actual worthwhile damage output, and cannot fit all 4LPPC or 2PPC. Because if you allow the limit at 4LPPC, then the strongest builds will be 4LPPC, and you must balance the weapon as a whole around that.

Under the current game stats? 4LPPC + 2DHS is identical to 2PPC but runs slightly cooler for more slots. The trade off currently between tonnage, and damage and heat output makes them basically identical weapons. The LPPC *needs* to be differentiated from the PPC, not just made to be a superior replica. By allowing 4LPPC, you are making LPPC have the same role in mech building as PPC, and that's just a wholly redundant and pointless endeavour.

Well, obviously not current-game stats.

That depends on how the LPPC is handled, such as you don't have to increase the Ghost-Heat limit, but just reduce the heat-penalty. The 4 LPPC would still work, but not as optimal. The problem is that the of simply increasing GH is precisely having a linear pattern, the Heat-Penalty approach makes it so that it's a diminishing-return.

The suggested PPC is at 8.5 Heat/shot at 4.0s CD, with 2x PPC 17 heat/shot. The 4x LPPC, which would have hit Ghost-Heat, and would generate 22.05 heat instead. Assuming 4.0s CD, at 2.2 Dissipation, the 2x PPC would have a net of 8.2 heat, while the 4x LPPC + 2 Extra DHS at 2.6 Dissipation, would have a net of 11.65 Heat. and that is assuming you only fire at 4.0s between shots. Remember that the LPPC could fire every 2.5s, so realistically it runs even hotter -- at net heat of 15.55 between shots.

So yeah, "superior replica". Let me guess: "if that's the case, then 4x LPPC is just hot garbage", and yes, precisely. So I don't know where the hell is your ire to the approach coming from. You got the more useful 3x LPPC, one which is doing it's own thing.

Again, here's the problem, the PPCs would always compete with the per-volley damage, always, and because of that the LPPCs ALWAYS loses out to the other ppcs, just as the standard PPC will ALWAYS lose out to the HPPC. LPPCs needs to be doing it's own thing.

HPPC would always win over standard PPC, unfortunately we can't just make a 20 ton investment be as competitive as a 14-ton one, so the approach is to just allow PPC to do 30 damage for 21 tons, and instead of doing GH, same case we'll introduce the Heat-Penalty-Reduction to keep the 2x PPC setup relevant by means of diminishing returns.

The ER-PPC is just not good, even with 11 to 12 heat, it's still far inferior in many cases, that's why it's imperative to allow it to do 30 damage and compete with HPPC. It would still be hot as hell, but at least you also have the punch at a long range as well.

Tarogato, on 29 June 2019 - 11:35 PM, said:

To reiterate, by buffing LPPC to a limit of four, you're not adding new options to play. You're just duplicating 2PPC. The limit needs to be 3LPPC, but with buffed stats so the weapon can stand aside having an independent use-case, or in fact creating actual new unique legitimate use-cases (well, rather making the ones that already exist, actually viable instead of useless trash).

Of course it's going to "duplicate" the 2PPC, because the LPPC in your mind is geared to be just basically a weaker PPC. You want to talk "duplicate", yet you're just pushing the LPPC on the very same niche it's doomed to lose out on other PPCs.

And to reiterate:
> I didn't increased the LPPC GH, I decreased it's Heat Penalty, which as a result, offers a diminishing return while keeping the 3x LPPC somewhat okay, and the 4x LPPC possible but not optimal. It is in a sense a simple stat buff.
> LPPC will always lose out to other PPCs because it's all about per-shot damage -- even if you buff it, you still lose out to the other PPCs regardless, that's why it needs to be doing it's own thing, such as DPS.
> The PPCs aside from the HPPCs is realistically going to compete with one another, but you just can't expect a 20 ton investment to be as competitive as a 12-14 one, that's why the only real option is to have it balanced at a higher tonnage and higher-alpha -- but to compensate is the diminishing-return of having to suffer the Ghost-Heat, but the heat-penalty is just enough to keep it an option, if not the best one.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 June 2019 - 02:18 AM.

[Reno Blade]

I think the biggest weakness of PPCs today is that the mass laser/missile/AC damage are outright out-dpsing the PPFLD of PPCs, even if you can land more hits where it counts than your opponent sandpapers you down.
You can scrap down your target with MRM60 or mass of ACs in a few seconds/volleys, while you struggle with heat AND dmg with a few PPCs.

Only the CERPPC (e.g. Warhawk) can keep it up, as the 5 extra damage and low tonnage combines well with low weight and size of Clan tech (smaller Clan mechs strugle with heat spikes).
Having IS PPCs and other tech larger and heavier make it just inferior to any other combination.

So either we get some reduction of all other boats, or increase efficiency of PPCs.
But as the PPCs are PPFLD, it can not be compared easily to the dps weapons one-on-one.
As it is apparently not wanted by the communtiy to nerf boats (e.g. link Med+Large lasers), I'm just commenting on my take on PPC buffs:

1. General: reduce heat of all IS-PPCs by 10-15%
The small heat reduction will help overall balance vs other weapons and vs Clan. All other IS lasers have much lower heat than damage while most Clan laser have closer to 1:1 ratio.
- NO changes to GH.

2. LPPCs - faster cooldown 2-2.5s
5 dmg
4 heat (-)
2.5s cd (-)
Faster cooldown still keeps the other PPCs relevant, but give the weapon a niche without making them OP, because of heat/shot and tons compared to ML/ERML. Would also work better with AC5/10s from the cooldown side.

3. SNPPC - lowest heat (e.g. 8heat) and +2 splash but reduced max-range
10 dmg +2 splash (+)
8 heat (- -)
4s cd
opt range 270m
max range 540m (from 630m)
When thinking of brawling, you want high dmg for low heat: so reduced heat / more damage with even less range when comparing to PPC or HPPC

4. PPC - only adding +2 splash
10dmg + 2 splash (+)
9 heat (-)
4s cd
average dmg and heat but with additional splash will keep it relevant with dmg/heat overall vs other weapons/lasers.

5. HPPC - no changes (besides general heat)
15 dmg
13 heat (-)
5s cd
having flat 15 dmg over the splash of the SNPPC/PPC makes the choices already relevant and still probably the most used variant (if tonnage allows)

6. isERPPC - reduce heat further, no other change
10 dmg
11 heat (- -)
4s cd
probably the biggest problem to balance, so reducing heat further without adding dmg (like on SNPPC/PPC) will give it enough difference to make a good option to choose when building for long range (vs the SNPPC/PPC/HPPC or ERLL)

7. cERPPC - unchanged
10 dmg + 5 splash
15 heat
5s cd

[The6thMessenger]

Reno Blade, on 30 June 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

6. isERPPC - reduce heat further, no other change
10 dmg
11 heat (- -)
4s cd
probably the biggest problem to balance, so reducing heat further without adding dmg (like on SNPPC/PPC) will give it enough difference to make a good option to choose when building for long range (vs the SNPPC/PPC/HPPC or ERLL)

The IS PPC Splash damage seems to be a nice touch, but honestly I still don't see much point in taking the ERPPC if I could just get closer and use the standard PPC with more damage, and better damage/heat.

[Willard Phule]

Reno Blade, on 30 June 2019 - 03:38 AM, said:

I think the biggest weakness of PPCs today is that the mass laser/missile/AC damage are outright out-dpsing the PPFLD of PPCs, even if you can land more hits where it counts than your opponent sandpapers you down.
You can scrap down your target with MRM60 or mass of ACs in a few seconds/volleys, while you struggle with heat AND dmg with a few PPCs.

Only the CERPPC (e.g. Warhawk) can keep it up, as the 5 extra damage and low tonnage combines well with low weight and size of Clan tech (smaller Clan mechs strugle with heat spikes).
Having IS PPCs and other tech larger and heavier make it just inferior to any other combination.

So either we get some reduction of all other boats, or increase efficiency of PPCs.
But as the PPCs are PPFLD, it can not be compared easily to the dps weapons one-on-one.
As it is apparently not wanted by the communtiy to nerf boats (e.g. link Med+Large lasers), I'm just commenting on my take on PPC buffs:

1. General: reduce heat of all IS-PPCs by 10-15%
The small heat reduction will help overall balance vs other weapons and vs Clan. All other IS lasers have much lower heat than damage while most Clan laser have closer to 1:1 ratio.
- NO changes to GH.

2. LPPCs - faster cooldown 2-2.5s
5 dmg
4 heat (-)
2.5s cd (-)
Faster cooldown still keeps the other PPCs relevant, but give the weapon a niche without making them OP, because of heat/shot and tons compared to ML/ERML. Would also work better with AC5/10s from the cooldown side.

3. SNPPC - lowest heat (e.g. 8heat) and +2 splash but reduced max-range
10 dmg +2 splash (+)
8 heat (- -)
4s cd
opt range 270m
max range 540m (from 630m)
When thinking of brawling, you want high dmg for low heat: so reduced heat / more damage with even less range when comparing to PPC or HPPC

4. PPC - only adding +2 splash
10dmg + 2 splash (+)
9 heat (-)
4s cd
average dmg and heat but with additional splash will keep it relevant with dmg/heat overall vs other weapons/lasers.

5. HPPC - no changes (besides general heat)
15 dmg
13 heat (-)
5s cd
having flat 15 dmg over the splash of the SNPPC/PPC makes the choices already relevant and still probably the most used variant (if tonnage allows)

6. isERPPC - reduce heat further, no other change
10 dmg
11 heat (- -)
4s cd
probably the biggest problem to balance, so reducing heat further without adding dmg (like on SNPPC/PPC) will give it enough difference to make a good option to choose when building for long range (vs the SNPPC/PPC/HPPC or ERLL)

7. cERPPC - unchanged
10 dmg + 5 splash
15 heat
5s cd

Nice. So, with your proposal, the Clans....the guys that actually developed the ERPPC, get 15 heat and the IS gets 10. Sweet idea. Here's another suggestion to help all the IS PPC family....how about getting rid of the "ghost heat" dynamic for all IS PPCs and limit cERPPCs to 2 before a 150% ghost heat penalty for more than 2? That should pretty much guarantee PPC dominance for the IS.

That IS the point of the entire thread, correct?