1380 replies to this topic

[vladforn1]

245 Trioxin, on 03 August 2019 - 08:21 AM, said:

Does anyone have any metric as to how many folks have filed for a refund?

It'd be utterly hilarious to me if PGI lost in refunds what they got from Epic...

-Triox

4000... slipped from somewhere in the Discord? It may be.

[Earl Whitehaven]

Akillius, on 02 August 2019 - 08:23 PM, said:

Cough, was it 2012 for you ???
Are you sure it wasn't closer to 2009-ish and maybe take or give a year???

Circa-2009 PGI announced "MechWarrior 5" the first time.
And obviously back when they gave a **** about doing intro game videos right to interest the masses...

Lol I was specifically referring to MWO launching in 2012 and how I don't admire PGI for MWO.

[Shadowomega1]

Prototelis, on 02 August 2019 - 11:42 PM, said:

I dunno, a large influx of players who actually know how to play shooters might be a good thing.

I highly doubt most of those players can shoot right anyway. Nor would I believe most would be willing to operate as a team.

When Planetside 2 released, it was a f2p mmofps with a bit of strategy involved, this ended up drawling a diverse massive a gamers some that never played an FPS, those that played COD, and those that played Battlefield, with some overlap between COD and Battlefield. What ended up happening is those that were use to easy mode shooting mechanics ended up whining and eventually leaving. What I am trying to point out is that skills in one game might not carry over to those in another. What is worse is if there is enough whiners then the devs might dumb down the game further to support the newer low skill population in an attempt to keep them. However, these players are normally the most ficial and jump trends every month or two and lead to long term lose for short term gain.

[NocturnalBeast]

Akillius, on 03 August 2019 - 07:56 AM, said:

Honestly if Sony didn't oversimplify avatar stats system in Star Wars Galaxies way-way back then I'd probably still be playing it even though Sony's security back then was equally as bad as Epic's security is today.

SWG was one of my favorite games, I loved my Flamethrower spec Zabrak Commando, my group had a base in one of the hardest to get to areas and I was friends with the best armor crafter on the server. All was great until the devs dumbed down combat, made it way easier to become a Jedi and allowed people to build houses everywhere, which made it so you could not go anywhere without running into houses and mobs were spawning in the walls because there was no place for them. Needless to say everyone I knew quit and never came back.

[Shadowomega1]

Ed Steele, on 03 August 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

SWG was one of my favorite games, I loved my Flamethrower spec Zabrak Commando, my group had a base in one of the hardest to get to areas and I was friends with the best armor crafter on the server. All was great until the devs dumbed down combat, made it way easier to become a Jedi and allowed people to build houses everywhere, which made it so you could not go anywhere without running into houses and mobs were spawning in the walls because there was no place for them. Needless to say everyone I knew quit and never came back.

I was playing Planetside 1 at the time this happened and had a friend who worked as a CSR/GM for SOE at the time; after he left the company he said that change to SWG was not SOEs idea but George Lucas' idea he pushed on SOE. Something the devs regretted not having the stomach to tell no to the very person who made Star Wars.

[Cajun MeTaBoLiC]

I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of this. "It's another launcher I have to install!" Epic Games Launcher installs in like a minute and uses about 62 MB of RAM. You don't even have to let it start when Windows boots. Just add the game to Steam as a non-steam game. It kind of seems like a non-issue to me.

[Gusevich]

You've got, like i don't know - 59 pages of explanation?

[Horseman]

Cajun MeTaBoLiC, on 03 August 2019 - 11:44 PM, said:

I don't know why people are making such a big deal out of this. "It's another launcher I have to install!" Epic Games Launcher installs in like a minute and uses about 62 MB of RAM. You don't even have to let it start when Windows boots. Just add the game to Steam as a non-steam game. It kind of seems like a non-issue to me.

Because it just being "another launcher" is not the issue for most of us!

The main issue is here the bait and switch that was pulled on us after we were assured multiple times that the game would be on Steam and delivered as a Steam key.

Thing is, it came to light that we have been outright lied to - PGI signed the Epic exclusivity deal while the preorders were still up for sale and kept it going even after it rendered itself unable to fulfill the preorders on the terms it promised.

So yes, people are bitter about being lied to multiple times

That Epic itself is a **** platform is just a ****-colored "cherry" on top. As unpopular as Origin and Uplay have been, Epic makes them look like paragons of competence and virtue in comparison.

1. Epic launched their platform some two years before they were actually ready. Better part of a year after launch, it's still charitable to call it an open alpha, EXCEPT IT'S FULLY COMMERCIAL AND WANTS YOU TO GIVE IT YOUR MONEY.

2. Epic failed at security. They launched without 2FA and didn't have e-mail verification until last week. Yes, that means you could lose all your purchases if you made a typo creating your account. And people did.

3. They don't have a cart. And they started banning customers because the customers made several purchases one after another. During a sale.

4. They have sent customers' personal information to other customers.

5. Epic's client datamines your system. (see this)

6. EGS features, library and user base are not competitive with Steam, so Epic's genius executives decided that since they're sitting on a giant mountain of Fortnite cash, they can fake competitiveness with platform exclusives and force customers to come to them by getting developers to jump platforms after they've already taken a shitload of preorders (or, in some cases, Kickstarter pledges). Most of the PC gaming crowd are not fans of hostageware, much less of bait-and-switch tactics. This bait and switch riles people up and as a result Epic's poorly designed shitshow of a platform is pretty much considered radioactive by the bulk of the PC gaming community.

Let it sink in for a moment and then ask yourself if any sane person right now would touch a platform with that history.

Yeah, yeah, "give them time"... I've heard that spiel. Epic isn't travelling back in time to compete with Steam of 2003, they're here NOW to compete with Steam of 2019, after fifteen years of watching Steam take upon itself the live market testing to determine what does and what doesn't work in their hybrid digital distribution platform / social network. Epic is coming to this with a budget and market position much better than what Steam had in 2003 too.
And yet, EGS launched in a state that was about a year away from being a minimally viable beta and is already falling behind development schedule. There is no excuse for this {LT-MOB-25}-up.

This is even without going into the views of their CEO, who apparently thinks that PC market is too open and should be walled up...

Edited by Horseman, 04 August 2019 - 03:58 AM.

[Curccu]

Shadowomega1, on 03 August 2019 - 03:25 PM, said:

I highly doubt most of those players can shoot right anyway. Nor would I believe most would be willing to operate as a team.

You just described largest portion of MWO players.

[Ruediger Steiner]

vladforn1, on 03 August 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

4000... slipped from somewhere in the Discord? It may be.

So even if you just assume 50$, that´s 200.000$ down the drain for PGI.

Another lie i totally forgot about was the 4 bonus mechs for the preorder. When first announced it clearly stated "not available for MC or C-Bills".
1 or 2 weeks later suddenly it said these 4 variants WILL be available for MC and later for C-Bills.
Yes, you don´t get the unique camo and the 30% C-Bill boost, i know that. But again it shows how fast PGI changes their mind and how they don´t give a **** about their paying customers.
Imagine this, preorders weren´t going well so they added these 4 mechs as bonus. And a few hundred people preordered not only to get the MCs, MW5 and other ****, but also to have 4 unique mechs not everybody in the game owns. And a week or two later PGI punshes them right in the face, by announcing that these variants will be available for everybody.

Edited by Wishmast3r, 04 August 2019 - 05:14 AM.

[Rinkata Prime]

Heh this topic is still HOT!!!

Horseman's post on this page is very solid and must be pinned somewhere!

[Stavinsky Elyas]

I was waiting for the game, I even considered pre-ordering the game, but seeing
how the game industry is getting messy those days I refrained as I was afraid
MW5 would get Denuvo slapped on it, or would end up as an EGS exclusive.

So now I'm happy that I have not pre-ordered as it would have forced me to ask
for a refund as EGS has again hit another game I was waiting eagerly.

EGS is a no go for me and not because "it's just another launcher". I have good
reasons and here are a few :

I have had my share of troubles with Epic Games, the first being them stealing
one of my email adress on github and adding it to their customer database. On
top of that they even got as far as sending me messages telling me that someone
had tried to access my Epic Game Store account. After checking carefully the
multiples message, they proved legit and not some outside phishing and stealing
attempt. The problem is the link they were sending me was asking me to create an
EGS account, in a way a 'phishing' attempt from Epic Games themselves to get me
as a 'customer'. Very shaddy practice.

Now I have also other issues with the CEO of EG, as I am one of those people who
did not forget his comments and insults about us, PC players, in 2009-2010,
calling us all pirates, and a toxic community. All this because one of their
game was a fail and received strong critics.

On top of that, I have no issue having multiple launchers as I have games on
GoG, Steam, Origin and Uplay. And I don't mind having some other launcher for as
long as it's not some pile of horse sh*t that steal datas on my computer.

Switching MW5 into an EGS Exclusive was a real bad move, I really ressent
Pirhana for that decision. Having the game on multiples platforms would have
been a smart move, restraining it to one of the most contreversial launcher is
damaging the Franchise. I was thinking Harmony Gold was one of the worst thing
that could happen to the Mechwarrior Franchise but EGS and that decision from
Pirahna show me that I was wrong and that some other evils are out there...

And don't get me wrong, I have played Battletech as tabletop since 1989, and
played the computer game MW2, MW3 and MW4 and was sad the franchise was missing
a new iteration of a game with a cooperative option for playing the campaign. So
hearing all what MW5 was promising was such an happy moment. Finding about the
exclusive was a hard blow.

So for me, I will not buy the game on EGS, and will surely not pay for the full
price on any other support just to show my disapproval of the exclusivity. Not
even sure to buy it at all just to vote with my wallet about what practice I
find disgusting.

So for now, another of your customer who is disapointed Pirhana.

[Prototelis]

Horseman, on 04 August 2019 - 03:57 AM, said:

bait and switch

Again. Look up what a bait and switch is. This is not a bait and switch.

Horseman, on 04 August 2019 - 03:57 AM, said:

5. Epic's client datamines your system. (see this)

Run the same "test" on steam. It does literally all of the same things.

This accusation stems from an uninformed post on reddit which has been thoroughly debunked.

https://web.archive....-Not-Spyware/1/

Edited by Prototelis, 04 August 2019 - 03:20 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Prototelis, on 04 August 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

Again. Look up what a bait and switch is. This is not a bait and switch.

Someone, may have been horseman earlier used some car analogy... you thought you were buying model 1 and got model 2 instead. In reality, what we have here is first it was model 1 delivered via dealer 1 and now its model 1 delivered via dealer 2.

[Prototelis]

Dee Eight, on 04 August 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Someone, may have been horseman earlier used some car analogy... you thought you were buying model 1 and got model 2 instead. In reality, what we have here is first it was model 1 delivered via dealer 1 and now its model 1 delivered via dealer 2.

That isn't what a bait and switch is.

[Dee Eight]

Prototelis, on 04 August 2019 - 03:21 PM, said:

That isn't what a bait and switch is.

I know that; This is a bait and switch...

[Theodore Kurita]

Chief Russ Bullock said, that only 700 from 20.000 Pre-Sales are canceled.
But, sorry, I don't trust him. I'm thinking this is only PR.
https://www.pcgamesh...ic-1296001/amp/

[Sereglach]

Prototelis, on 04 August 2019 - 03:08 PM, said:

Again. Look up what a bait and switch is. This is not a bait and switch.

2nd Definition of "bait and switch" in The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

Quote

A deception based on a false claim or enticement that proves to be disappointing.

2nd Definition of "bait and switch" according to Merriam Webster Dictionary of the English Language:

Quote

the ploy of offering a person something desirable to gain favor (such as political support) then thwarting expectations with something less desirable

Therefore, by definition, this would be bait and switch to anyone who expected a game on Steam and is now NOT getting a game on Steam. They have been the target of "bait and switch" tactics.

Legally speaking (while I'm not a lawyer, can't provide legal advice, etc. . . . it's still pretty clear cut) the fact that PGI directly advertised a Steam product and then said that they will not provide a Steam product also fits the legal definition of being "Bait and Switch Fraud" in the US, Canada, and other nations with similar laws. At that point, the only question was whether or not it was intentional; and given the time the deal was signed and the delay to announcement of the change in product . . . it's pretty damning for PGI.

Edited by Sereglach, 04 August 2019 - 09:59 PM.

[Horseman]

Dee Eight, on 04 August 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

Someone, may have been horseman earlier used some car analogy... you thought you were buying model 1 and got model 2 instead. In reality, what we have here is first it was model 1 delivered via dealer 1 and now its model 1 delivered via dealer 2.

I've got a better one now: you were buying a car that's street-legal in the US. You instead got a variation of that model that's only street-legal in Bahrain and cannot be rebuilt to meet US standards.

Theodore Kurita, on 04 August 2019 - 09:41 PM, said:

Chief Russ Bullock said, that only 700 from 20.000 Pre-Sales are canceled.
But, sorry, I don't trust him. I'm thinking this is only PR.
https://www.pcgamesh...ic-1296001/amp/

That information comes from the first AMA on the subject... which was a day or two after the announcement.
I find it plausible for there to be only that many cancellations at that point, when the news wasn't widely distributed.

Sereglach, on 04 August 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

Legally speaking (while I'm not a lawyer, can't provide legal advice, etc. . . . it's still pretty clear cut) the fact that PGI directly advertised a Steam product and then said that they will not provide a Steam product also fits the legal definition of being "Bait and Switch Fraud" in the US, Canada, and other nations with similar laws. At that point, the only question was whether or not it was intentional; and given the time the deal was signed and the delay to announcement of the change in product . . . it's pretty damning for PGI.

Russ admitted that PGI advertised and sold pre-orders for a Steam product after they've entered the contract with Epic.

Edited by Horseman, 04 August 2019 - 10:12 PM.

[crazytimes]

So... now that there is a mech in fortnite, allow me to postulate a hypothesis.

The deal with Epic was done months ago at the latest, likely before preorders even opened. The mech in fortnite S10, which as has been pointed out elsewhere, looks remarkably like some of the BT art, was always planned as a tie in. It introduces mechs to a crowd almost none of whom were born when MW1-4 or even Mechassault 1-2 were released.

Funny part at the moment- all the hardcore fortnite streamers *hate* the mech. In particular... wait for it... they hate the LRMs it launches. I giggled when I saw that.

Anyhow, flip side is, the MW5 on Epic was locked in long ago. That kind of game mechanism in fortnite wasn't planned recently, the tie in deal was done a long way back. It may translate to some sales- if they can interest less than 0.01% of the fortnite fans in MW5, it more than doubles the preorders lost already. That's the hitrate nigerian prince spam emails get, so they will likely do a lot better.

Moral- all hail our new fortnite kiddie community direction! Huzzah!