Jump to content

Regarding All The Hate, I Gotta Question:


128 replies to this topic

#81 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 03 August 2019 - 09:16 AM

No, it doesn't. Again, you need to go study some entry level microeconomics.

I will try one more time, because I'm stubborn, and surely this time the windmill will be defeated! Plus, you've given me a little more insight on why your error seems reasonable to you.

Your basic problem is your definition of competition. You seem to have acquired some strange definition of competition - and it's wrong. I can tell that it's wrong because of how you are using it, specifically how you think that only being able to buy a product at one outlet means there's no competition going on. This is simply false. You may also be fuzzy on the underlying principles that make anti-competitive practices anti-competitive.

I can tackle this from a number of directions; let's start with definitions and principles. If you disagree, you have to tell me why you think it's wrong, and support your position.

Competition is where companies offering their products to customers at whatever price and let consumers choose what they will buy (or not.) This is good for consumers because it produces pressure on a company to give you the best price for the quality of good they're selling - lest someone else grab their potential customers' money instead.

Anti-competitive practices are those that seek to reduce or eliminate the customer's choices. Practices such as price fixing, dividing territories, and dumping all are anti-competitive because they aim to reduce customers' choices - reducing that downward market pressure and gaining more profit for themselves. The same goes for the two examples you've pursued in this thread: creating barriers for entry, and a vendor contracting to buy only from a certain supplier - which you claim is indistinguishable from a store exclusive.

For the first accusation, it's so groundless that I actually missed it at first; how can simply contracting to go with a single sales platform create a barrier for entry for others? The platform isn't making games development more difficult or expensive for anyone. I literally just glossed over that claim and went into your first link to wikipedia and tried to guess what you could possibly have meant, here.

For the second accusation, based on my aforementioned guess, you're on more solid ground - but you're still very wrong. In order for a store exclusive to be anti-competitive, it has to reduce, or aim to reduce competition - that's pretty much tautological. A vendor contracting to buy only from one supplier is anti-competitive - essentially because the supplier is trying to corner the market. If they can induce all the stores in your area to only sell their products, they've stifled competition - customers' choices have been artificially reduced. (The internet makes this very hard to do for consumer goods, but we're talking principles; anti-competitive behaviors are still wrong if you're not successful.) However, if a supplier contracts to only sell to one vendor, how is a customer's choice reduced? Are they kidnapped? Held at gunpoint? Is Mack the Knife making them an offer they can't refuse? No, they can go down the street and buy something else if they want to - that's exactly what people do now if a store doesn't have what they want. It makes no difference whether the product is unavailable because another vendor contracted the supplier to induce you to come to their store, or because the store doesn't think it will sell well enough. You've still got the choice; this is just the vendors competing with each other.

This brings me to the crux of your error: a bad definition that's so broad as to be essentially meaningless. If a store exclusive is the same as a store only selling one suppliers' products, then just about everything is anti-competitive. Store brands come to mind: Kirkland, Great Value... Trader Joe's tuna. All of these products are contracted to be sold only through those outlets - are you going to boycott Walmart, Costco, Trader Joe's, WinCo, Safeway, Fred Meyer... the list goes on, man. Literally every major chain has their own brand. And there are plenty of games you can only get on Steam; and if you want them, you go to steam.

There's no barrier to you buying games from Steam, or GOG, or Origin. You don't pay any money, you don't pay different prices for the same game unless somebody has a sale; there is nothing interfering with your ability to chose options to trade your money for video games in the market - and there has to be, in order for a practice to be anti-competitive.

The difference between a store exclusive and anti-competitive practices is real, meaningful, and borne out by actual law and current events. Apple recently lost a Supreme Court antitrust case over its charging a commission on its AppStore offerings - but no one has ever even tried to sue the Mac Store down at the mall.

Edited by Void Angel, 03 August 2019 - 09:19 AM.


#82 Kotzi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts

Posted 03 August 2019 - 09:32 AM

Completely wrong. Just answer the question and stick to the topic. Stop changing the talking point. You cant compare a Tuna to a game. You would have to compare it to something unique like a picture or a song. Can you just copy those? Are there different substitutes? Your analogy would only be right if there is just one source for Tuna.

So again. PGI sells it game MW5, IP of PGI, only to EPIC. Where is the competition? Can i decide where i buy it from except EPIC?

#83 Phoolan Devi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fenrik
  • Fenrik
  • 366 posts

Posted 03 August 2019 - 12:23 PM

View PostKotzi, on 30 July 2019 - 10:06 AM, said:

OMG.
Contract = Deal. Retailer A buys from Supplier B is the same as Supplier B sells to Retailer A.


But what ist the contract? Isn't the contract between me an PGI not, they provide me the game I payed for.

Nothing in that contract was violated!

#84 Horseman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 4,737 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 03 August 2019 - 01:50 PM

View PostPhoolan Devi, on 03 August 2019 - 12:23 PM, said:

But what ist the contract? Isn't the contract between me an PGI not, they provide me the game I payed for.
In the specific form and on the specific platform.

Quote

Nothing in that contract was violated!

Okay, then tomorrow PGI announces they're going to make the game exclusive to Nintendo 3DS. By your interpretation nothing in that contract was violated at that point either, right? :P

#85 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 03 August 2019 - 02:01 PM

You're wrong, too Horseman. A store exclusive isn't the same as a console exclusive for the very important reason that you do not have to buy the store. The Epic store is not a platform in the same way a console is a platform - to conflate the two is an equivocation fallacy.

#86 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 03 August 2019 - 02:30 PM

View PostKotzi, on 03 August 2019 - 09:32 AM, said:

Completely wrong. Just answer the question and stick to the topic. Stop changing the talking point. You cant compare a Tuna to a game. You would have to compare it to something unique like a picture or a song. Can you just copy those? Are there different substitutes? Your analogy would only be right if there is just one source for Tuna.

So again. PGI sells it game MW5, IP of PGI, only to EPIC. Where is the competition? Can i decide where i buy it from except EPIC?

Analogies and metaphor always break down at some point because they are not the things described. cherry-picking one example of store-exclusive deals and quibbling over it in order to distract from the fact that you've once again ignored the core argument that example was given to support is a bad faith argument. Particularly when you are doing nothing but restating your faulty opinion after hand-waving away arguments you have not, and presumably cannot, refute. I've provided examples, laid out definitions, and done everything short of posting pictures of the relevant subjects from my old textbooks. You just wave it all away... and then return to your talking point, while accusing me of your own rhetorical misconduct.

You don't know what you're talking about, and the only objection you deigned to provide actually demonstrates it: The Epic Store isn't the "picture" we're talking about here - it's the art gallery. And you're accusing the gallery of stifling competition because it cut a deal with the artist to only sell prints of his art through them. Even here, the analogy breaks down, because the Epic Store doesn't affect the prices, while a gallery will charge. But even so, the artist is not "engaging in anti-competitive behavior" when he agrees to show at that one gallery, because people can go to other galleries, or buy other artists' work at the same gallery. The gallery is likewise not engaging in anti-competitive activities for the same reasons. Your analogy only works if people are being forced to shop at just one store.

But since you are nearly certain to skim this post and slap off another half-baked objection because I used an analogy, let me be clear. I've answered your question. I gave you a sequential argument that started with definitions and worked through to conclusions. I've used illustrations because you don't understand the actual subject, so I'm simplifying to illustrate where you're wrong. But the analogies I've offered are not the argument, they are supporting material. So. Deal with the argument, or admit you haven't got an answer.

You've done literally nothing but repeat your debunked claim, accuse me of your own misbehavior, then pick something you think you can quibble over in an example instead of actually answering the real objections raised. In short, your "argument" is indistinguishable from a chat bot. Show me there's an actual homonid of some kind on the other side of this argument, or be kind enough to go away.

I haven't encountered someone this confident in their ignorance since that one guy ticked me off misquoting Sun Tzu...

#87 Horseman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 4,737 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 03 August 2019 - 03:35 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 03 August 2019 - 02:01 PM, said:

You're wrong, too Horseman. A store exclusive isn't the same as a console exclusive for the very important reason that you do not have to buy the store.
It is the same in one specific way - and the only one that matters here: if you want the product you have exactly ONE venue of purchasing it and NO alternatives.

#88 MadcatX

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Brother
  • Big Brother
  • 1,026 posts

Posted 03 August 2019 - 04:38 PM

View PostHorseman, on 03 August 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

In the specific form and on the specific platform.

Okay, then tomorrow PGI announces they're going to make the game exclusive to Nintendo 3DS. By your interpretation nothing in that contract was violated at that point either, right? Posted Image


All games that you pay for pre-order, early access or some form of crowdfunding, typically as part of the legal pre-order agreement / ToS, they've got a clause, typically in very tiny font, stating that the developer can change parts of that contract at any given time before release. That is the inherent risk one takes when pre-ordering, etc. If that were not the case, many games these days would have been on the receiving end of SUCCESSFUL lawsuits.

If MW5 were to become 3DS exclusive, they can't "violate" a contract which they are legally allowed to change at any time.

#89 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 03 August 2019 - 07:36 PM

View PostHorseman, on 03 August 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

It is the same in one specific way - and the only one that matters here: if you want the product you have exactly ONE venue of purchasing it and NO alternatives.

It's the same in one specific way, which is irrelevant - and the only way they're really similar. Because a console that you buy for money is not equivalent to a launcher program/game store that costs no money, and does not contract you to only use that launcher.

Again, for the upteenth time: how does a product being available from only one store stifle competition - when customers can freely chose to use another store? Specifically tell me how that reduces market pressure - because if the market is still operating (it is,) then it doesn't matter. If two vending machines are standing side by side, why does it matter if you can only get a Coke from one of them? Kotzi has been dodging that question for pages, now; if your intention is to do the same, you disappoint me.

#90 Phoolan Devi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fenrik
  • Fenrik
  • 366 posts

Posted 04 August 2019 - 04:20 AM

View PostHorseman, on 03 August 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

In the specific form and on the specific platform.

Okay, then tomorrow PGI announces they're going to make the game exclusive to Nintendo 3DS. By your interpretation nothing in that contract was violated at that point either, right? :P


Wrong, since such a change would cost me extra money if I don't have a Nintendo.

The change PGI did doesn't cost me anything.

#91 Horseman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 4,737 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 04 August 2019 - 08:08 AM

View PostPhoolan Devi, on 04 August 2019 - 04:20 AM, said:

Wrong, since such a change would cost me extra money if I don't have a Nintendo.
DON'T YOU HAVE MOBILE PHONES???

If you were to believe your friend Void Angel's interpretation, PGI is under no obligation to deliver you the game on any specific platform.

Stop white knighting in defense of contract breaches.

Edited by Horseman, 04 August 2019 - 08:10 AM.


#92 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 04 August 2019 - 08:26 AM

For people here arguing about contracts, how many of you have actually read to the very last word the licensing, privacy, and other related policies stipulated for the software, services, and all other things you are using?

I am asking just out of sheer curiosity.

#93 Nesutizale

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Privateer
  • The Privateer
  • 3,242 posts

Posted 04 August 2019 - 10:18 AM

Reading the service agreement or licensing? MUHAHAHAH....good joke. I think outside of lawyers there are rarely any people who do so completly.

#94 Kotzi

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,356 posts

Posted 04 August 2019 - 11:54 AM

How many competitors can offer MW5? How much competition is there when you can buy only at EPIC?

#95 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 04 August 2019 - 12:10 PM

How much competition is there when you can only buy MW5 from PGI? Congratulations, all copyright laws now fall under your umbrella of anti-competitive practices! Wheee! Meanwhile, in the real world, the market still functions and competition exists.

And you're approaching page 4 of dodging the question.

#96 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 04 August 2019 - 04:18 PM

View PostHorseman, on 04 August 2019 - 08:08 AM, said:

DON'T YOU HAVE MOBILE PHONES???

If you were to believe your friend Void Angel's interpretation, PGI is under no obligation to deliver you the game on any specific platform.

Stop white knighting in defense of contract breaches.

You're equivocating. You call both the Epic store and the Nintendo console "platforms" and then use the term interchangeably. But they're obviously not the same things, or the same kind of things: the platform on which you actually play the game is exclusive; you cannot play a PC/Mac game on a Playstation, or vice versa - Sony spent good money to make sure of that in 1999. So if Nintendo contracts to have Final Fantasy Whatever made only on its console, that can be considered anti-competitive because now in order to continue play a popular series, you have to buy an entirely new piece of hardware. In essence, Nintendo would be trying to trade on the game's popularity to pressure you into buying a console you don't want.

That's not happening here. You're not buying the Epic store, nor does your buying MW5 via the epic store present any appreciable barrier to your buying games on other platforms like Steam. If you want to pretend PGI is in "breach of contract," fine - but before I lend one iota of credence to your application of civil contract law, you're going to have to cite the paragraph of the contract that they're purported to have violated. I won't be holding my breath.

Genetic fallacies thrown in at the end for snark do not strengthen your position - quite the opposite, in fact.

You disappoint me.

#97 Horseman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 4,737 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 04 August 2019 - 10:53 PM

View PostVoid Angel, on 04 August 2019 - 04:18 PM, said:

In essence, Nintendo would be trying to trade on the game's popularity to pressure you into buying a console you don't want.
Epic is trying to trade on the game's popularity - and sunken cost fallacy - to pressure us into joining a platform we don't want to be on, installing a client we don't want to and supporting practices we don't want to.
Not all that different.

View PostVoid Angel, on 04 August 2019 - 04:18 PM, said:

If you want to pretend PGI is in "breach of contract," fine - but before I lend one iota of credence to your application of civil contract law, you're going to have to cite the paragraph of the contract that they're purported to have violated.
I see you still haven't read something I've linked you guys to several times before:
http://web.archive.o...ng-parties.html

Quote

a general doctrine of good faith between parties and a specific duty of honesty — opening up the civil courts to a potential wave of lawsuits based on perceived deceptions.
(...)
The decision states: “… there is a common law duty which applies to all contracts to act honestly in the performance of contractual obligations. …
(...)
“In this case, one of those duties is a duty of honest performance in contracting, which means basically that parties can’t lie or knowingly mislead each other with respect to the performance of their contractual obligations.”

Remember that PGI had committed to the Epic exclusivity and continued to run the pre-orders stating they would be delivered on Steam?
Remember when Russ proclaimed that any concerns about the game becoming an Epic exclusive were unfounded?
Yes, that was knowingly misleading customers both times.

I don't need to cite anything more to you than that, and you very well know it.

Quote

You're equivocating.
I've trying to get across to you - and since normal explanations didn't get across to you, I was trying to get the point across by presenting you with exaggerated analogies.

You and Proto insist that PGI can unilaterally change the contract as they please - that's a slippery slope, because then by your own interpretation they are free to change it again and move the game to a completely different hardware platform and model of gameplay. Or drop the Mechwarrior IP and rebrand it under a Rock'em Sock'em Robots license.

View PostVoid Angel, on 04 August 2019 - 04:18 PM, said:

Genetic fallacies thrown in at the end for snark do not strengthen your position - quite the opposite, in fact.
You and Proto assumed the role of volunteer spokesmen for the company and continue to deny established facts. It's neither a fallacy or an ad hominem but a description of how I see your actions in this thread.

News flash: you're not making the things any better. In fact, your brilliant defense only continues to make the opponents of this move angrier.

#98 Void Angel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Marauder
  • The Marauder
  • 7,026 posts
  • LocationParanoiaville

Posted 05 August 2019 - 10:52 PM

Actually, no - I don't remember that. I remember Russ saying that they had talked to Epic, not heard anything back, said those things in the interim, and then heard back from Epic. So unless you have a verifiable source inside PGI, you're just going on hearsay and your own personal interpretation of events based on what you thought was meant at the time. And since you've not been paying attention, I asked you which part of the contract was breached; show it to me - and you dodged the question.

Your subjective interpretation of events for which you don't have any actual evidence doesn't constitute breach of contract.

I don't care if you're angry. Be mad at PGI if you want. You can run screaming into the street and shout obscenities about Russ Bollock in a naked drunken rage tantrum until the cops are called for all I care (for the purposes of this forum at least; please don't get arrested.) I'm just annoyed at the substitution of self-righteousness for fact. Again, unless you've actually read the contract, you don't know if there's a breach, because the contract may well have included terms for refunds.

And don't think I'm going to buy your "oh, it's just hyperbole" excuse - nor excuse your straw man. I'm hardly alleging that PGI can alter contract at will; in fact I've "alleged" only two things. First, you shouldn't throw around legal terms without being able to justify them, just because using criminal terminology makes you feel vindicated. Show me the contract clause that's been violated; citation, or shut up. And second, a games store exclusive isn't the same as a console exclusive or sole supplier agreement between a vendor and a store. This is a very simple concept, and one I've explained in detail - an explanation which Kotzi (and now you) have never once been able to rebut.

I'm sorry that my insistence on facts you find inconvenient angers you. I'm hardly defending PGI, as you pretend; I'm objecting to mush-headed sophistry and unsupportable accusations. I'm willing to accept actual facts, if you've got them, and revise my position. I'm not willing to pretend that you're right because you say you're angry, however. Nor because you and others made up a slur for those who disagree with the irrationality of the complaints you level against PGI. Use facts correctly and don't support your opinions with logical fallacies - while hand-waving away the rebuttals - and I'll stop fact-checking you people into the bleachers.

Edited by Void Angel, 05 August 2019 - 10:53 PM.


#99 Horseman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Mercenary
  • The Mercenary
  • 4,737 posts
  • LocationPoland

Posted 06 August 2019 - 12:31 AM

View PostVoid Angel, on 05 August 2019 - 10:52 PM, said:

Actually, no - I don't remember that. I remember Russ saying that they had talked to Epic, not heard anything back, said those things in the interim, and then heard back from Epic. So unless you have a verifiable source inside PGI, you're just going on hearsay and your own personal interpretation of events based on what you thought was meant at the time.

Actually, there is a verifiable source inside PGI on that - Russ himself, recorded during the first AMA that followed the Epic announcement.
You can find the relevant fragment of the AMA in this video, at 4:15 :


And likewise Russ himself regarding the FAQ changes https://twitter.com/...180563895615488

nuttyrat said:

Hey @russ_bullock. A lot of folks are concerned about changes to the MW5 FAQ, specifically removing mentions of the Exclusive Beta and being released on Steam. Can you provide some insight into what is going on? #MW5Mercs #mechwarrior #Preorder

Russ Bullock said:

Didn’t they just take down the FAQ along with the preorder page

Russ Bullock said:

It’s just the FAQ for the new updated MW5 site we’re going to launch soon — makes no sense to have community preorder bits on it. Didn’t necessarily want to let on about the site update yet but since people be all worried

Russ Bullock said:

Well now you can let them know it’s just the site update incoming - no need to have preorder bits in the FAQ


"Just the site update", right?

Edited by Horseman, 06 August 2019 - 02:20 AM.


#100 Nesutizale

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Privateer
  • The Privateer
  • 3,242 posts

Posted 06 August 2019 - 01:55 AM

There was a 3 day crossover between preorder and signing the Epic deal. How many people have bought in these 3 days cause they are the only ones who where "lied" to.
I can't remember what AMA it was but Russ stated before this one that they where talking to many different stores like Steam and GOG and he also made a vague comment that they would try to talk to all of them.





3 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 3 guests, 0 anonymous users