139 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

My point. Kurita isn't Japan. Its a state that is heavly inspired by japanese culture but its not Japan. Its a mix of different cultures and influances where the leading house decided to copy parts of the japanese culture in incorperate it into its own.

[FLG 01]

The BattleTech Universe basically is a collection of what some Americans knew of other cultures in the late 70ies, early 80ies. A good deal comes from movies. Why do you think the 'German' faction is ruled by a Steiner?
The knowledge about the 'Asian' cultures was even more limited, and when you add to that the pulp-fiction roots of the early BattleTech novels... well, you end up with a bunch of stereotypes, some of them flattering, some not so much.

That was almost 40 years ago. I know people have made it an artform to be offended by old fiction (as long as it is western fiction, that is). However, contemporary BT is a different beast, and its creators are open to suggestions. And if you are looking for cerebral Sci-Fi, or for clever depictions of cultures and their possible developments in the future, and you turn to BT of all things... you may want to go home and rethink your life.

[Nesutizale]

I think it might be even a good thing to let the old BT stand as is and let the new generation, writers as well as fictional characters, be more open and change things. You could incoperate the change of view that we had (real world) over the years that have past since these novels flow into the BT univers.

I could think about a scenario where the old feudal systems and stereotypes of old are slowly beeing replaced by more detailed views of people. Have more diverse characters. Hell maybe even in some parts come around to adapt more democratic systems. IF MWDA wouldn't have happend I would have said that after the Jihad and destruction of old Marik space they would have been the best faction to give again more power to the Parlament. Marik was the only house that had a Parlament but was under martial law. So with house Marik more or less out of the way the Parlament could have been reinstated and given power.

PS: I stopped reading the books after the end of the Steiner-Davion Civil war and only got climps of MWDAs story and I didn't realy liked to so my suggestion above will most likely contradict something that came afterwards.
Still it would have been a very interesting concept to me.
I mean what would the other people of the IS think when they see that Mariks Parlamentary system would work while the rest of the IS is still in a monarchy? That would be like a reverse of earth today where I think most countrys have adopted some form of non monarchy system, Not neccessarly democratic.

Anyway haveing the old fiction as is and new more diverse and detailed one for the future would give you also a nice way of reflection on how things changed. In univers and realworld views.

Edited by Nesutizale, 24 August 2019 - 10:32 AM.

[Prototelis]

Nesutizale, on 24 August 2019 - 02:57 AM, said:

My point. Kurita isn't Japan. Its a state that is heavly inspired by japanese culture but its not Japan.

The point is that parts of this caricature are offensive. There is a reason this franchise has almost no appeal in the eastern market despite its anime roots. Is about the same level as white girls wearing indian headdresses to festivals level. Misappropriation of other cultures can be kinda racist, especially when the materials is playing up the negative aspects or low points in history of that culture.

The biggest issues battletech canon faces are how it depicts other cultures, the methods used to soft reboot, lack of curation, and the quality of writing.

Edited by Prototelis, 24 August 2019 - 10:40 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Oh stop it with your "I feel cultural offended because of stereotypes". Dude I am from germany I see wrong portrails of germans all the time and you know what? I find it hillarious. Its funny to no end. Just get over the oh so seriouseness of things.
Sure I could be offended by allways beeing seen as a "N-Azi" or wearing "Lederhosen" and eating "Schnitzel" and "Weißwurst" and stuff but I am not.

It happend often enough to me on vacations that when people found out that I am a german that they allways reduced germany to Baberia...I mean Bavaria but hey that is the sterotype a lot of people have and its partialy our fold too. Its an export bestseller.
I remember beeing in Washington during the octoberfest and everywhere they where running around with Laderhosen and trying to sell me "Black Forrest Cake" as dessert. Man I laughed so hard the poor waiter was totaly baffeld until I told him that I am from germany and he might want to bring me something "local"

Everyone that feels offended by Battletechs stereotypes should realy make a check if that is worth it. As you said its partial so overdone its caricature like. Have fun with it, see it as a window into the past when people where not as well educated, well traveld or whatever that that was how people viewed the world back than. Its sort of a timetravel you are duing right there.

Lets move to the future. Lets create new characters, new places and idea that take what has happend in the canon of BT and improve it. Weave in the views of our world today into it as those younger generations of BT characters work on changeing things. Maybe even say it directly that the Lords of old where to narrow in their views. Don't try to change the past, its done, go into the future and make that better.

I kinda see it like someone wants to rewrite history to fit his current day point of view. Sure its a fictional history but in part its also our history. You can see by just the fact that people feel so differently about it today that we have here a option to look into our own past of what was okay back then.
Scifi was allways about reflecting the current time it was written in and predicting the future from there. Here we have a chance to build upon and old view and have a greate arc of change that can be told from here on out.

Edited by Nesutizale, 25 August 2019 - 02:33 AM.

[A1Ste4kSauce]

It needs an overhaul lore wise for sure. Even 40k restructured its cheesey lore and figures from the 80's. Still corny at times, but an improvement. I can't stand BattleTech lore. Just give me stompy robot games. Anyone who thinks mohawks on mechs or stupidly dressed characters are cool is just nostalgic.

Most BattleTech fans are old now. I got in as a kid with Mechwarrior 2 and the clix game. I steered clear of the actual tabletop and lore because it looked outdated. They need to improve it to get young blood in.

Edited by A1Ste4kSauce, 25 August 2019 - 05:55 AM.

[Nesutizale]

I think 40k got worse with each itteration. The last rework with these new space marines mhhh. Also like the old Necrons story more with its more tragic background then now just beeing "we are badass and no one can touch us". It takes out the depth of the entrie faction.

Also if you just want stompy robots you can ignore the lore anyway and just stomp around, stupid dresses? Have you seen some of the stuff people wear today? That is also stupid, depending on who you ask. Fashion is allways changeing and old stuff comes up again and new stuff gets old. I have seen the fall and rise of hats and their downfall again. Beards where unheard of and now they are okay and they will vanish again.

Also they tried to refresh the game with MWDA/click-tech and look where it went...its gone. People didn't liked it but the old Battletech is still there. From my experiance what keeps people from playing is not the lore but the quite complex ruleset that starters have a problem with. Thats why the new Alpha Strike and tabletop alternative rules have become a thing.

[Bombast]

Prototelis, on 24 August 2019 - 10:33 AM, said:

The point is that parts of this caricature are offensive. There is a reason this franchise has almost no appeal in the eastern market despite its anime roots. Is about the same level as white girls wearing indian headdresses to festivals level. Misappropriation of other cultures can be kinda racist, especially when the materials is playing up the negative aspects or low points in history of that culture.

Question: Is Hellsing racist?

[Nesutizale]

You mean as in the vampire?

[Bombast]

Nesutizale, on 25 August 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:

You mean as in the vampire?

[Nesutizale]

No he just eats...hates everyone
Frankly there is so much literature, movies and songs of old are in some form "offensive".

When I heard that they can't read "Grimm brothers" storys in kindergarten anymore I thought what the hell?
People today are oversensetive to everything.

[Prototelis]

Bombast, on 25 August 2019 - 09:09 AM, said:

Question: Is Hellsing racist?

Are you talking about the anime? I've never seen any of it so I can't really comment on it.

But maybe probably, there are some elements to anime that are a little cringe as well.

Its interesting that someone brought up Gundam tho; OG zeons were literally a stand in for space fascists, infact the first thing they do in the series (although it was only alluded to and not depicted until about halfway through) is they gas an entire colony and drop it on Sydney. But the framing is a lot better, Zeon has clear motivation and it isn't rooted in any sort of racial bias.

[Prototelis]

Nesutizale, on 25 August 2019 - 02:33 AM, said:

Oh stop it with your "I feel cultural offended because of stereotypes". Dude I am from germany I see wrong portrails of germans all the time and you know what? I find it hillarious. Its funny to no end. Just get over the oh so seriouseness of things.
Sure I could be offended by allways beeing seen as a "N-Azi" or wearing "Lederhosen" and eating "Schnitzel" and "Weißwurst" and stuff but I am not.

You kind of disagree with yourself here. You are very clearly affected by those stereotypes in a negative way.

[Battlemaster56]

Bombast, on 25 August 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

Answer no

Hell even the {Godwin's Law} in tyere weren't racist they all wanted war and didn't care for anyone else. And the major is best villan to date imo, and his speech is so godlike, even the author created a smash version of the speech.

[Nesutizale]

Prototelis, on 25 August 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

You kind of disagree with yourself here. You are very clearly affected by those stereotypes in a negative way.

Beeing affected and how you take it are two different things. Sure I am affected that they see me with the stereotypical view but I don't go around and lecture people and tell them that they are raceist or hurt my feelings or that I feel offended.
Stereotypes help you in some form to have a rough understanding of the other side. Sure it dosn't mean you have to shove it in their face but as a general helper its usefull.

Also even as we might not like it or its wrong to say "Everyone is like XYZ" overall stereotypes exists because there is a certain degree of truth in it.
While not all germans might be from Bavaria some are and while not all Bavarians run around and Lederhosen some are and its part of their tradition.

So I don't disagree withmyself when my point was how I take and handle it and the way that I do it is with trying to understand from what direction the other comes and take it with a smile/humor when I see that he has the wrong idea and tell him whats different about me from the stereotype.

There is very little reason, mostly, to be offended, pissed, whatever over stereotypes.

[Nesutizale]

Battlemaster56, on 26 August 2019 - 03:20 AM, said:

Answer no

Hell even the {Godwin's Law} in tyere weren't racist they all wanted war and didn't care for anyone else. And the major is best villan to date imo, and his speech is so godlike, even the author created a smash version of the speech.

Best villians to me are either Thanos or Sky du Mont from "Schuh des Manitu"
One is so extreme calm and confinced that he is doing the right thing, even going down with some dignity and not makeing a scene, the other has a very professional way with his minions. "Joe you wan to go to bed?" "Ah yah boss." "Ok you go to bed, everyone else saddle up!"
So classy

[Bombast]

Battlemaster56, on 26 August 2019 - 03:20 AM, said:

Answer no

Hell even the {Godwin's Law} in tyere weren't racist they all wanted war and didn't care for anyone else. And the major is best villan to date imo, and his speech is so godlike, even the author created a smash version of the speech.

I wasn't asking regular people, I was asking "Any distortion is racist" people. I was curious what he though about how the Japanese butchered European Christianity (And English political structure and powers) for the sake of a vampire story.

Alas, we'll never found out.

[Battlemaster56]

Bombast, on 26 August 2019 - 05:48 AM, said:

I wasn't asking regular people, I was asking "Any distortion is racist" people. I was curious what he though about how the Japanese butchered European Christianity (And English political structure and powers) for the sake of a vampire story.

Alas, we'll never found out.

AH ok.

And Idk dude is not consistent on releasing his works from the works I follow but I thought it mostly focusing on the darker aspects of human nature each side representing a look. But then again dude is a p0rn and probably was in mood to draw hot chicks with cannons and badass vampire god who is surgical and jealous of old people. With enough gore to make Rambo blush.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 26 August 2019 - 06:44 AM.

[Koniving]

Hellsing is filled with stereotypes of many nationalities and many religions. Some true, some not so true, some that SJWs might consider offensive. But the funny thing about offensiveness, is that only white American SJWs seem to find any offense. One might even say that the Catholic Church being depicted as the evil force with arrogant ****** running the Vatican behind the scenes of the Pope and death-loving assassins of God going up against the main character is offensive.
But no one cares.

Summoning the Assassin as a threat...and it backfires because both the assassin and Dracula (Alucard) want to fight.


And then to summarize it, everything happens (in the words of the Abridged series, because {Godwin's Law}. Now I know that's gonna get changed to Godwin's law but basically think of the primary Axis power). I kid you not.


Abridged's version is set much earlier and is based on a different version of the anime, but still very, very good.
In fact, it points out so many "offenses" and "aggressions" and defines them as half a dozen of different kinds of war.

And then it has the audacity... to paint the Major as the most human of all of us, even after we find out he's been reduced to nothing more than a clockwork machine from World War II.



Yet.. rather than be offended we call it great writing.

Much like Battletech. Now, while Battletech's writing is not nearly as a great, for the time they tried after starting with nothing but some pictures of robots and a game that had already been out for a year under a different name (Battle Droids). From that, an author spawned half a dozen factions that began with some generic caricatures. These have evolved over time, and sure we generalize them as "Space Germany", "Space America," "Space Vikings", etc... But are they really?

Space Germany aka the Lyran Alliance might be prominently German, but what makes them a German stereotype?
*That they're insanely rich and yet grossly in debt?

That makes them American.

*That their leaders are incompetent and only have their positions because of noble inheritance or they bought their positions?

That makes them more medieval Europe (long before Germany existed as a nation as Germany is a younger Nation than the USA).

*That they like big guns?

Perhaps; in history Germans have liked big guns. But who doesn't? In fact once PGI began shrinking weapons to reduce hitboxes, people cried because they shrunk the guns to be (somewhat) accurate with the lore-sizes of the guns (further emphasizing how oversized the gundam-sized mechs are when BT's mechs would be dwarfed by Gundam's mobile suits).

*That they have generically German-sounding names?

Is this somehow offensive?

We'll generalize Davions as Space America, but this is because of Hanse Davion's antics and the fact that people can vote.
People can vote in Marik's space, but nobody calls it Space America despite it being much closer to America than the Davions. We just do that because Davions are also often depicted as the good guys...even when they're the bad guys in other stories. But then why don't we call Steiner Space America?

Lets break that down a bit.
They can vote. Is that really an American stereotype? Even the British vote for their chancellor and they have a Queen.
One of the primary languages is English.
But that's secondary to French. Why don't we call it Space France?
Is it because they don't run away from battle? Oh wait, that's offensive stereotype. (In fact, Davions when told to surrender have politely declined, saying that they don't have enough food to accept the overwhelming force that is surrounding them
So is it that they like autocannons?
It's what they have an abundance of. Also how is this a stereotype of America? We're the first ones to get laser weaponry in real life.

So why do we do this?

Because it's funny.

We could do analyze every faction... but once broken down you'd be hard-pressed to find "offensive" traits that aren't generally true of humanity as a whole.

And the sad thing is Battletech doesn't really have all that many stereotypes. They are thrown in there by people reading to give a basic understanding to those who haven't read a goddamn thing to give a generic impression of them. Which is pretty common, and often those people turn around because white SJW apologists and claim that there's a lot of offensive stuff...but can't point out a single example. Wonder why that sounds so familiar.....?

Sure there's some character stereotypes, sure, but those are similar in nature to say "the devious shifty eyed character" and "the good guy with a secret" and "he's a great man until he snaps, then he's a ******* lunatic, now kill everyone!!!" There are some basic culture stereotypes, but in universe these are explained very easily. Some kid that once liked turtles with the last name Kurita back in the Hegemony days thinks "I like the Japanese, I know nothing but some old **** that I had someone summarize from me and some baseless assumptions. That's how our culture will be. But screw that sun thing, I'm not here to worship the ancient emperors or silly old Terra traditions. I like Dragons." Poof, the Draconis Combine.

Perfectly reasonable. Developed an entire culture around some assumptions and idealizations of another culture and poof.

The Marian Hegemony's development in lore actually gives us a detailed account of this process in which some leader creates an idealized version of Roman society... and selectively picks and chooses what he likes and didn't like. Unlike Kurita, he actually got informed about it, did research,and then selectively tossed whatever he didn't like out the window. Mass orgies? Keep.. regardless of how much truth or fiction there was to it. Gladiatorial combat? Sure. Ability to toss out the Emperor? Toss that ****. The name Emperor? **** that, my title is CAESAR! His own name? Pfft. Rename to Julius! (So he is Caesar[title] Julius!) Slavery? Sure! A Senate... meh but they have no power, just hot air and if the situation warrants can be replaced in an instant (that's not how Rome worked).

The list goes on and on. What the leader wanted of the culture, he appropriated. What he didn't like he discarded. And what he sorta liked but didn't like how it was done, he "modded" it to make his 'real life sim civilization' play the way he wanted.
His descendants either accept things as they are or modify according to their whims, much as the Kurita do with the Dracs (though they have less power to do so as the culture and government also have a life of their own).

So if you're offended by the way a culture has developed after appropriating another culture and then picking and choosing what they want.. Then you're probably offended by the Philippines, by the USA, by Mexico, by Italy, by France, by Great Britain, by Norway, by literally every country that was formerly part of the USSR (CCCP), any country that's ever watched anime, and I could go on but then I'd need to sing Wacko's song.

But even that might be offensive, as whether the old or updated version it's still inaccurate.

And now I've committed an offense, because I misspelled Wakko's name!
Oh noes!

I think in general that people should stop telling other people what other people should be offended by, and just exist. If you're offended, by all means. If you're not but saying its offensive because it's about another culture, race, etc... Let THEM be offended and speak out. Don't speak for them.

Edited by Koniving, 26 August 2019 - 11:41 AM.

[Koniving]

Here's a good one on the same topic.

The shorthand is that media starts doing articles about perceived racist depictions (because SJWs want clicks), particularly with black characters and cultural depictions of blacks... and how they're racist in the game, which the game is basing it on the source material...
And apparently doesn't realize the creator is, also, black.
And the creator lets them know "Don't tell me what I should be offended by."
And it also includes reactions of people of the cultural group nationality that are being represented by the gang/faction, and those people are all freaking excited that they're being represented and how genuine the (as the media put it "racist") accents were.