139 replies to this topic

[Anjian]

Prototelis, on 29 July 2019 - 05:32 PM, said:

I don't really expect an older white man to understand how any of that is culturally insensitive.

So lets go here instead;

How do you feel about Jihad?

Let's see how the Dune remake handles it in the post 911 era.

[Anjian]

Sagara Sousuke 011011001, on 30 July 2019 - 04:36 PM, said:

I always thought Kurita was represented well. Sure Liao might be a bit slanted in the novels, but its not far off from how the Chinese Communist Party and Workers Party of Korea run things. (PS I've always pictured the St Ives Compact as a modern Taiwan /HK)

On the subject of the clans versus inner sphere and the table top rules/books - Video games can be true if they were to separate the tech into two factions. IE. A Inner Sphere Company versus a clan Binary. 12vs10

First, the Kurita emblem. Japanese clan crests, emblems and regalias don't use dragon symbols, even in the Sengoku period because it was obvious to them and to everyone, dragons are a Chinese symbol. Another case of Western "cannot tell Chinese and Japanese cultures apart" syndrome.



The Kurita symbol also reminds me of the emblem of another game.

Edited by Anjian, 30 July 2019 - 10:48 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Open up, this is the cultural appropriation police! We have a reason to believe you're homage to the Japanese culture is ignorant of actual Japanese culture! And is possibly appropriating Chinese culture instead!

Oh this crazy messed up real world we live in. :3

[ShaneoftheDead]

The Future of Battletech?

Battletech Table-Top seems alive as they generally sell-out of the box set releases they do. I hear they are continuing the story. It is a niche game and it should be viable for a while as long as they don't pull a Dark Age 2.

The HBS Battletech game seems to have done well. Should be able to continue with more campaigns and DLC for a while yet. Lots of potential here.

Mechwarrior's short-term future is set, as we all well know. It's future will be almost entirely determined by it's execution. Will it be "fun"? If it's fun, it will sell. If not... well...

But all of that is obvious. The future path of highest probability.

I'd like to know if there will be a future for Mech Commander. I think there could be some room for that. Especially since there has not been a major RTS release recently aside from those re-releases of Broodwar and Warcraft III. A good Battletech RTS could shine.

There could even be more... I believe the foundation is there for a GoT style series. All the existing lore... Just pick a novel series... or adapt it into something on a grand scale but more condensed. House vs. House intrigue. Shoot... could you imagine if they did one based on the First Succession War?!? "the single bloodiest conflict in human history: ignoring the Ares Conventions, all sides made use of weapons of mass destruction, wiping out entire cities and rendering whole planets uninhabitable." Those kind of stakes on a massive scale yet to be done. If done right, it could be a "gold mine". If...

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 28 July 2019 - 05:01 PM, said:

Doesn't translate well, especially for an IP ostensibly based around a game.

It could be done.

Here is one very simple example:

• Clans could have more sensitive sensors
  
• IS could have better data sharing capabilities

It just takes imagination and not performing literal translations of board game rules.

[Mystere]

Bombast, on 30 July 2019 - 01:58 PM, said:

House Liao's bad image largely stems from a single leader who's not bad because he's Asian, but because he's an absolute nutter. I'm not sure what you're talking about Kurita wise, unless you're referring to the Kentares Massacre, which is more complicated than "Asian man evil."

Using the terrible actions of an individual or a small group as being representative of an entire race or religion is nothing new (e.g. Muslims).

Having said that, the terrible actions -- especially war crimes and other crimes against humanity -- of an individual or a group leading a so-called "bastion of democracy" is representative of said place. The "people" are liable for putting them there and keeping them there. And no, "punishing" the former by not reelecting them does not account for all the evil done, not even a bit. <shrugs>

Thorqemada, on 30 July 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

Its bcs Space Feudalism...the overlords come and go and as long they provoke not to much uproar (i.e. forcing cultural and religious changes) people move on with their life in the business as usual manner...

Is that same as forcibly imposing "modern" (i.e. "western") ideas on a thousand years old civilization?

Edited by Mystere, 31 July 2019 - 11:58 AM.

[Sagara Sousuke 011011001]

Anjian, on 30 July 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

First, the Kurita emblem. Japanese clan crests, emblems and regalias don't use dragon symbols, even in the Sengoku period because it was obvious to them and to everyone, dragons are a Chinese symbol. Another case of Western "cannot tell Chinese and Japanese cultures apart" syndrome.



The Kurita symbol also reminds me of the emblem of another game.

Probably because dragons were associated with the emperor not any of the clans. At the end of the day, Japan borrowed quite a bit from China especially during the time of Shotoku.

[Prototelis]

Mystere, on 31 July 2019 - 11:12 AM, said:

It just takes imagination and not performing literal translations of board game rules.

Damn homie. Are we agreeing on some ****. Staaahp it.


Honestly, IMO, the basing large parts of the technology lore around board game mechanics is one of the biggest reasons there isn't wider appeal.

The board game should reasonably approximate how things work in universe and work around the lore. Not the other way around.

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 31 July 2019 - 03:20 PM, said:

Damn homie. Are we agreeing on some ****. Staaahp it.

Did pigs start flying? No? Then no.

You seem to want a BT reset.

I, on the other hand, want to instead dig into the underlying principles abstracted by the board game. And if there are things missing, then I create them.

That's not the same as agreeing.

Prototelis, on 31 July 2019 - 03:20 PM, said:

The board game should reasonably approximate how things work in universe and work around the lore. Not the other way around.

Not necessarily. As I said, it's the "underlying principles" that need analyzing.

Edited by Mystere, 31 July 2019 - 04:21 PM.

[Anjian]

For the most part, I don't think people would care about the "racism" in Battletech as well as its built in "diversity" and "woke" elements, like people care about those issues when they play World War 2 games like World of Tanks or War Thunder.


(Personally I think humanity by 3000 AD isn't a melting pot of cultures --- but an already melted pot of one, where everyone has already melted into a single homogenous racial group.)

I believe the main failing of Battletech is that business wise, it --- thanks to a management that has a poor vision to take it to a future --- screwed itself into a corner with all its licensing, and the poor, inadequate and incompetent management since the 2000s.


I am studying cases and the history of franchises, their ups and downs, and surprisingly its not about the very idea of that franchise, but how it is managed over time.

[Koniving]

From 28 July 2019 - 05:51 PM:

Particularly there are a lot of inconsistencies around the technology and the way it functions. The most famous example being "stackpoling."

I actually wonder about the very first "Stackpole."

The reason this is, is while working on some lore searches for weapons, I noticed while digging through the Macross-inspired mechs that the Warhammer specifically mentions a Fission Reactor in the blueprint.

Point "V".

Now what makes this interesting is Stackpole's first novel is 1988, this blueprint was made in 1987.. and during this time, books make references to both Fusion and Fission engines as, like many things... it was NOT set in stone yet. Contradicting information in early versions of the Battlemech Manual compared with the BattleTechnology magazine and the 20-ish years later Tech Manual also shows many other changes.

The BM makes a few references to Fission Engines. BattleTechnology never once mentions Fission. The Tech Manual mentions both but unlike the BM it doesn't make the mistake of using them interchangeably. As such, it is possible (though I don't know for certain as I haven't read the first "Stackpole") that he was thinking of a Fission Engine. Even if he wasn't, I'd make an argument that pretty much nobody knew that a ruptured fusion reactor is extremely unlikely to go nuclear. (To be clear it can, but you'd have to do it during the reaction which for a theoretical Fusion Reactor is not constant. In truth neither is Fission and the same conditions need to be met, an explosive disruption during the reaction.

According to https://www.eia.gov/...lear_fuel_cycle
from 1968 to 2013 (45 years) at 118 nuclear reactors, 241,468 fuel assemblies have been discharged (used).
241,468 / 118 facilities = 2046.338983050847 used per facility as an average. Now, divide by 45 years, and its pretty much 1 fuel assembly consumed per year per facility. (Unfortunately that's an over simplification and assumes all reactors existed at once, the same document shows that every 1 to 2 years they cycle out 40 to 90 fuel assemblies.) According to the same site, a fuel assembly takes a few years to cool off before it can be moved. Their reaction is controlled by control rods which help regulate the size of the reaction in the water.

Technobabble aside, reactions are not constant, and in both Fusion and Fission reactors a nuclear explosion pretty much can't occur through the means of a violent rupture unless it occurs during a reaction. So Stackpole is both possible...and extremely unlikely, and if what I remember hearing about a Stackpole being done deliberately to use as a suicide bomb is correct... pretty much isn't gonna happen that way. Similar to a Roach only being vulnerable to radiation only 10 to 13 times in its lifespan (during the molting process when the cells divide), a nuclear explosion is only likely to happen if the fuel rods are ruptured during the process of a reaction.

TL;DR: Stackpole might've been not only been thinking of Fission engines but actually could have been describing a Fission reactor stackpoling as at the time Battletech kept using both Fission and Fusion interchangeably in its early fluff. Warhammer's blueprint expressly states it is using a Fission reactor. Regardless, stackpoling is thereotically possible for both types, however unlikely with Fission and extremely unlikely with Fusion.

_______

I've found the "Fission" reference to be explained away in something rather obscure from 1989.
The Fusion engines contain a small Fission igniter.

The shorthand of this obscure piece of fluff is this:
Fusion reactors require an absolutely immense amount of power to start. Power that likely won't left over after performing an immense alpha strike that has shut down the reactor. A small Fission "igniter" (did they mean ignition?) acts as a kind of alternator or jumpstarter for the Fusion Engine in order to overcome the Coulomb Barrier and start the first fusion reaction.

The amount of heat required to start a fusion reaction in real life is virtually unfathomable, leaving only particle accelerators as a means to get that reaction, and that leaves what powers it enough to get the initial Fusion reaction? Apparently, a Fission reaction that can boot a hot machine "in about 7 seconds." Course, that makes me wonder about cold starts. The King Crab bootup sequence in Storms of Fate seems to take several minutes. No wonder there's frequent depictions of mechs trying to get out of hangers as the hangers are destroyed.

Sadly as this literally is not mentioned anywhere else as far as I know of, it's hard to consider this canon despite how it makes sense and makes stackpoling more likely to be plausible (as well as even expressly pointing out the best time to strike to get a stackpole on purpose in a way that is even scientifically accurate).

(I meant to share this discovery in one of my owns threads, but it came out here.)

(Can't believe I had to make an edit just to put the word not in.)

Edited by Koniving, 02 August 2019 - 02:43 AM.

[Koniving]

From 29 July 2019 - 05:17 PM:

Thats hardly a new description, and I'm hardly the first person to point it out.

The broadest and easiest to draw example is how asian cultures are depicted in the fiction. Especially some of the associated art.

A discussion I participated in within the Japanese threads was actually very enlightening about this.

It started as the Japanese players complaining about the stupidity of the rising Sun on Justin Allard's Yen Lo Wang. Someone pointed out it was pulled from the BT card game, and I happened to have seen earlier art of the Yen Lo Wang which was red and white but depicted Chinese Dragons snaking around the body on the paintjob and an open maw dragon head around the AC/20 from the Solaris VII Rulebook.

Anyway as it happens in that thread someone pointed out a specific novel in which the Draconis Combine had forces in Japan on Terra (I can't recall the reason but they weren't really welcome). This inspired me at the time to go hunting for more information and what I found gave me a rather interesting return.

This is my recollection of it.
The fictional Japanese within the Battletech universe were disgusted by the Drac's warped views on Bushido, Samurais, and basically all things Japanese. In other words, the universe is well aware that the Draconis Combine is NOT a genuine Japanese representation and isn't intended to be one, it's intended to be a warped, distorted culture based on one wealthy clan's (family line, aka Kurita) preconception of what fuedal Japan is like, tailored to how the family's heads see fit for the period with changes at their whims.

Basically, the same thing as Dice did with World War II when they rewrote a real event that involved a dozen men destroying a dam without a single kill and then changed it to a mother and daughter did it after massacring over a hundred enemies (instead of taking actual events to show us women in world war II and real accomplishments of real and great heroines of the era, they rose-tinted their own view of it and fabricated a "idealized rewrite"). Kurita had preconceptions about Japanese fuedal culture which were 'idealized' and in many cases entirely incorrect and said "This was the old way of Japan, and now this is our way." No, Kurita, it wasn't the old way of Japan. It's just Kurita fantasy of how it went down.

Similarly, the Marian Hegemony has a much more clearly expressed right-from-the-get-go culture warping in which the head of the group starting the new colonies of Steiner runaways had a fantasy of Ancient Rome and built around it.. literally distorting that to cater to their own vision of it which aside from some visual themes and outfits and a robust porn industry, has very little to do with roman culture. Without knowing the details, a politically correct biggot could probably say "That's a writer being racist," where its more a culmination of writers had a vision of a gray universe in which fictional people reinvented society to fit their fantasies of ancient cultures with aesthetics that they enjoyed but probably spent 5 minutes looking at pictures without even reading the books.

This is a universe in which the authors are encouraged to create "unreliable narrators" (its expressly stated in the 1st Sommerset Strikers companion that the series regularly uses unreliable narrators [characters that tell the story from their viewpoint] with biased opinions, prejudices, and their own morals.)

The Kurita family may see itself as the embodiment of Japanese culture for example, but Japanese people in the Japan of the Battletech universe see the Dracs as a twisted perversion of their ancient culture, strung together by a dictatorship family that spouts nonsense about honor in order to brainwash its denizens into loyalty that could rival that of religious fanatics.

I'd hardly call that racist. I'd call that dystopian and perhaps even tyrannical manipulation of your people through controlled culture.

Now, the Liao depiction of being sneaky backstabbers, that's questionable. Though despite the stereotype about their personality, beyond espionage and Mech Commander 2, I really don't see much sign of it. Apparently despite a mostly male presence in the standing military, a significant amount of their elite and special forces are mostly female. They do infiltrate and disable facilities prior to or during carefully planned assaults. Their defensive strategies though showcase the conscription nature of mandatory soldier-to-citizen service. Every citizen is a soldier willing to fight and die for the Confederation. However, the average training of said forces is lackluster at best. Sure, one could say that is a stereotype of the Chinese back then, but honestly I think that just makes them Romulans in disguise.

Edited by Koniving, 02 August 2019 - 04:37 AM.

[Anjian]

Honestly I won't fret about Battletech's non-PC-ness and stereotypes. It is very trivial compared to let's say Gundam, which has an overtly nationalist, fascist and imperialist culture in one of its factions with an uncomfortable "Zeon" name. I might even say racist, not between people of different colors and races, but between those who were born in Earth and in Space (an issue that The Expanse has dealt with).

I wonder how they are going to make a live action Gundam movie for a global audience based on a universe that is inherently politically charged.

Whatever issues Battletech has with PC-ness and stereotypes, it is easy to overwrite and overlook. We can get writers to fix that, address cosmetic and cultural correctness. On the positive side, BT already has diversity and gender equality already baked in.

As for the Rising Sun stripes on Yen Lo Wang, I would certainly remove that, because yes, there are Chinese and Korean people who are going to be deeply offended with that. But that's a cosmetic change that can easily be done.

Edited by Anjian, 20 August 2019 - 03:16 AM.

[Nesutizale]

Isn't Battletech the one story that is the least "raceist" that it can be?
When you look at the population of every house you will find that they are all mixed up from the "original" nations of earth. You can find asians, americans and so on in every nation of the greate houses. I can't remember any passage where it was noted that someone was discriminated by color or race but by what nation/house he belongs to.
That is quite understandable when you remember that there is a more or less constant war going on.

Also all the houses are either a mix or abstract, warped version of cultures we have now.

So can we please drop this stupid talk of "but Davion are americans" or "Steiner is german" or "Kurita is Japan" that is all wrong. Those nations of today do not exist in that form anymore. These are new nations with more or less new cultural structures and stuff.
Naturaly there are smiliarities because they are build upon our present, their past but its not our present culture or politics. Stop interpretating stuff into it and take it as it is.

[Rorik Thrumsalr]

Anjian, on 30 July 2019 - 10:43 PM, said:

First, the Kurita emblem. Japanese clan crests, emblems and regalias don't use dragon symbols, even in the Sengoku period because it was obvious to them and to everyone, dragons are a Chinese symbol. Another case of Western "cannot tell Chinese and Japanese cultures apart" syndrome.



The Kurita symbol also reminds me of the emblem of another game.

Just FYI Battletech predated Mortal Kombat by 8 years. If there was any copying, it was the other way around.

As for the Dragon, the Japanese did not reject them because they were obviously "Chinese". They abound in Japanese stories, folklore and art and would have been more associated with religion. As for house Kurita, a future society that wishes to emulate ancient Japan, there is no reason that they couldn't feasibly decide on a dragon as their symbol. It's such a ubiquitous symbol of power it would resonate with the non kuritans as well.

[Nesutizale]

Kurita as well as the other houses are a mix of different stuff. Just look at the dominant languages in Kurita space for example: Japanese (official), Arabic and English (Source: Total Warfare)
Also when you look at the religion its also a mix: Shinto (official), Buddhism and Islam. (Source: Total Warfare)

This would suggest that a lot of the population comes from arabic and english countries too. So while the house Kurita adopted a lot of the japanese culture for its official governing style and adapt it to fit their views its not a 1:1 copy of Japan.

[Anjian]

Rorik Thrumsalr, on 20 August 2019 - 10:15 PM, said:

Just FYI Battletech predated Mortal Kombat by 8 years. If there was any copying, it was the other way around.

It doesn't matter because Mortal Kombat is far more widely known.

Quote

As for the Dragon, the Japanese did not reject them because they were obviously "Chinese". They abound in Japanese stories, folklore and art and would have been more associated with religion. As for house Kurita, a future society that wishes to emulate ancient Japan, there is no reason that they couldn't feasibly decide on a dragon as their symbol. It's such a ubiquitous symbol of power it would resonate with the non kuritans as well.

It doesn't change the fact that traditional Japanese clans do not use the Dragon symbol, furthermore, put it on a red background.

The flag symbols for the Eight Banner Armies of the Qing Dynasty.




Ming Dynasty Banner

Edited by Anjian, 23 August 2019 - 02:40 AM.

[Anjian]

Nesutizale, on 21 August 2019 - 12:13 AM, said:

Kurita as well as the other houses are a mix of different stuff. Just look at the dominant languages in Kurita space for example: Japanese (official), Arabic and English (Source: Total Warfare)
Also when you look at the religion its also a mix: Shinto (official), Buddhism and Islam. (Source: Total Warfare)

This would suggest that a lot of the population comes from arabic and english countries too. So while the house Kurita adopted a lot of the japanese culture for its official governing style and adapt it to fit their views its not a 1:1 copy of Japan.

You don't express diversity by acting out racial stereotypes.

LIao and Kurita look cringy to any Asian, with Kurita's "Tojo" and Liao's "Fu Manchu" stereotypes for their leadership. Smells outright like stereotype Asian culture to the eyes of Westerner sort of thing. If you ever seen pseudo European cultures created by Japanese in anime and manga, they are cringy too, like the Republic of Zeon in Gundam where you got white blonde people acting like fascists and imperialists.

Edited by Anjian, 23 August 2019 - 02:37 AM.

[Nesutizale]

And then we have characters like Kai Allard Liao who is nothing like the rest of the Liao familiy.
What about Theodore Kurita, while keeping most to the tradition of house Kurita (not Japan) he reformed a lot of stuff.

Some of the stuff is indeed very sterotypical and so what? BT novels are by far not "high" lecture. They are fun to read, use stereotypes to save some time to not explain every character in detail but overall its not raceist. Its a common practice done in every media to give people a general direction of what to aspect of the characters.

Its nitpicking to think to deep about it. Like with the flag thing. It dosn't matter if its chinese or japanese. House Kurita decided to go with that as their Logo.

Edited by Nesutizale, 23 August 2019 - 06:18 AM.

[Sagara Sousuke 011011001]

Nesutizale, on 23 August 2019 - 06:16 AM, said:

And then we have characters like Kai Allard Liao who is nothing like the rest of the Liao familiy.
What about Theodore Kurita, while keeping most to the tradition of house Kurita (not Japan) he reformed a lot of stuff.

Some of the stuff is indeed very sterotypical and so what? BT novels are by far not "high" lecture. They are fun to read, use stereotypes to save some time to not explain every character in detail but overall its not raceist. Its a common practice done in every media to give people a general direction of what to aspect of the characters.

Its nitpicking to think to deep about it. Like with the flag thing. It dosn't matter if its chinese or japanese. House Kurita decided to go with that as their Logo.

"Theodore" isn't very Japanese either.