141 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

"Knife fighting" in the context of MWO means short range high speed brawl. IE; two small fast mechs very close to each other.

Edited by Prototelis, 03 August 2019 - 03:00 AM.

[Kroete]

Prototelis, on 03 August 2019 - 03:00 AM, said:

"Knife fighting" in the context of MWO means short range high speed brawl. IE; two small fast mechs very close to each other.

You mean then situations where everyone says dont dance around enemys if allys also shooting at it because you block your allys shots or get killed by them?

[Prototelis]

...Yes, by all means we should just stand there and get shot so some mechdad 700 meters away can painstakingly line up a shot or safely lrm a target it cannot see.

Yeah... no.

Its not like you've played light mechs enough to understand how it works.

Edited by Prototelis, 03 August 2019 - 03:17 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

That **** is why I poke from a distance.

With my 6x ERML + 2x LL DireWolf Prime. Gotta love the tracking of arm-weapons.

[Mystere]

Humble Dexter, on 02 August 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

Before the direct LOS low arc nerf, if two brawlers were circling around each other you'd shoot LRMs and they'd always hit the enemy mech unless the friendly mech was facehugging the enemy mech while turning his back to you (rare case).

Now if you should low arc direct LOS LRMs at two brawlers circling around each other, it's 50/50 : You hit whichever mech is in front of you when your LRMs reaches them.

No point arguing : It's a fact that I have to cancel my LRM shots in these situations because there's no telling which mech I'll hit, since and because of the direct LOS low arc nerf. Instead I often just watch them dance until they split off or something to give me a clear shot, or pull back to achieve a high arc indirect LOS shot.

Prototelis, on 02 August 2019 - 08:12 PM, said:

You would have to exercise fire control with DF mechs in the same situation to avoid team damage, whats your point?

Indirect fire can have its uses, even at mid-range or closer?

Unfortunately, people's utter hatred of back-line LRMers caused all of that to change.

Now back to The Division 2's Dark Zone and my grenades.

Edited by Mystere, 03 August 2019 - 03:30 AM.

[Prototelis]

So, if you really needed ******* IDF arc shot in that scenario;

Use the lock we know Kuber had from behind a ******* wall.

Thing is, this was probably already an IDF lock, with an IDF arc soooo... irrelevant.

[OmniFail]

So,

If you are using LRMs, should you not support teammates with IDF? For example a light group in a dog fight with enemy mechs that are away from the main force.

[Alienized]

people even manage to get killed by ATM's as they dive up close into enemy mechs that are blasted by 3 of his teammates already.
oh boi, how could one not know that standing in a firing line of 3 of your teammates is deadly for you.... but facehugging noobs are common these days especially if there are only a few enemies left.

[Kroete]

Prototelis, on 03 August 2019 - 03:16 AM, said:

Its not like you've played light mechs enough to understand how it works.

I understand that i can be killed if i stay between an enemy and my allys,
nothing more to know about this case.

[evilauthor]

You know, I once friendly fire killed a light mech that was "knife fighting" with another light mech. But I did it with SHORT Range Missiles. I fired a volley of SRMs at the enemy mech, and by the time the SRMs covered the distance, it had switched places with the friendly mech. Very embarrassing. There wasn't even a question of the friendly blocking my fire because I was firing down from ABOVE them.

So no, it's not just LRMers that do this. And if the LRMer was using direct fire, you not holding lock doesn't matter in the slightest; the LRMer can still see the enemy and maintain his own lock.

[Chortles]

OmniFail, on 03 August 2019 - 04:53 AM, said:

So,

If you are using LRMs, should you not support teammates with IDF? For example a light group in a dog fight with enemy mechs that are away from the main force.

Might as well drop an artillery there for assistance as well.

[Warning incoming Humble Dexterer]

To be honest facehugging is what I do if I I'm locally outnumbered, so only one mech can shoot me.

But if it's a duel and you have allies left on the map, it's probably a dumb thing to do.

Edited by Humble Dexter, 03 August 2019 - 06:39 AM.

[Kubernetes]

Ah yes, I love the geniuses telling me to disengage from a 140 kph Piranha and get some distance so my LRMer teammates can get some shots in. Sure, let me just hit the Sekrit Taktikal Jeenyus Go-Faster button to boost my mech to 160kph or so. That should be enough to put some space between me and him, right? Maybe 180 just to be safe? Shoot, I'm gonna go to 200 since we're talking about imaginary ****.


Edit-- It's become apparent to me that a lot of commenters here really have no idea what goes on in matches beyond "put the circle in the square.". It's as if, rather than observing and analyzing what actually happens in matches, they've got an idealized movie playing in their heads about how mech combat happens. "Duh, don't fight a Piranha at close range, get some distance!"

Edited by Kubernetes, 03 August 2019 - 08:35 AM.

[Feral Clown]

OmniFail, on 02 August 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

Please directly quote the part of my post that makes you think that killing a shot blocking teammate is ok

LOL. So you wanna circle around and play games with words like a mindless child, well ok.

"If it had been a non locking weapon you would have not had a argument that would hold up on the forums because you would have still been a shot blocker."

Saying someone doesn't have an argument or would hold up because they are in your wild assuming personal attack against a guy who is ten or twenty times better than you is placing the blame not on the shooter but the guy getting team killed.

You can try and spin and be all aloof but your own words betray you. Stop being butt hurt and taking jabs with absolute nonsense and then trying to spin it, you are clearly not even close to intelligent enough to pull it off.

[Feral Clown]

Humble Dexter, on 02 August 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

Before the direct LOS low arc nerf, if two brawlers were circling around each other you'd shoot LRMs and they'd always hit the enemy mech unless the friendly mech was facehugging the enemy mech while turning his back to you (rare case).

Now if you should low arc direct LOS LRMs at two brawlers circling around each other, it's 50/50 : You hit whichever mech is in front of you when your LRMs reaches them.

No point arguing : It's a fact that I have to cancel my LRM shots in these situations because there's no telling which mech I'll hit, since and because of the direct LOS low arc nerf. Instead I often just watch them dance until they split off or something to give me a clear shot, or pull back to achieve a high arc indirect LOS shot.

The direct line of sight mechanic is not a nerf. It is a buff, you just have not been able to figure how to properly use it. Cry all you want that you can no longer hide and expect to rack up damage, this is how they are and will remain until the game is done.

Maybe PGI will even include it MW5, which would be awesome.

Kroete, on 03 August 2019 - 03:07 AM, said:

You mean then situations where everyone says dont dance around enemys if allys also shooting at it because you block your allys shots or get killed by them?

This can be hard for those of used to playing with people who can aim and have common sense.

But you're right, not a good idea in quick play because of how terrible so many are at aiming, and how so many just don't care and will fire through a friendly regardless.

[OmniFail]

Feral Clown, on 03 August 2019 - 09:01 AM, said:

LOL. So you wanna circle around and play games with words like a mindless child, well ok.

"If it had been a non locking weapon you would have not had a argument that would hold up on the forums because you would have still been a shot blocker."

Saying someone doesn't have an argument or would hold up because they are in your wild assuming personal attack against a guy who is ten or twenty times better than you is placing the blame not on the shooter but the guy getting team killed.

You can try and spin and be all aloof but your own words betray you. Stop being butt hurt and taking jabs with absolute nonsense and then trying to spin it, you are clearly not even close to intelligent enough to pull it off.

LOL… What a clown.

So, I can tell that you are new here. So, I am going to let you in on a little secret, that me and the guys have here on the forums. When we “wanna circle around and play games with words” we signal each other with forums posts like “ANOTHER REASON NOT TO HOLD LOCKS.” In these threads we have intense philosophical conversations about the nature and ethics of LRM use.

But most of us are not mindless children when it comes to this legendary and nefarious argument. We have these arguments because we want to either discover the true nature of LRM’s or convince others of our position. There are players with opinions of all shades and degrees on the matter of LRMs. Some of them regardless of their opinions, have amazingly sound arguments based in logic and reason. They came to these opinions though long-time experience and analysis of these arguments. For these players I have to begrudgingly give respect.

You are not one of those players.

Now first your argument for another reason not to hold locks.

It goes like this…

I had a lock on a mech.
Because, I had a lock on a mech I was killed by friendly lurms.
Therefore, you should not lock on mechs, because the lurm boats on your team will kill you.

First, locks do not only benefit mechs with lock on weapons. They benefit all teammates. They provide valuable information on the enemy mech such as location, type, armament, and damage status. Many here would argue that this information is more valuable than any damage achieved though indirect fire (IDF). This is because a pack of angry, well informed, mechdads is better than any weapon in MWO.

Secondly, LRM team kills are extremely rare compared to all other weapons. These rare events do not justify not using locks because of the benefits that I described in my first point. The primary reason for the low team kill potential is that LRMs are usually fired with a lock on an enemy mech and cannot target friendlies. There are two ways you can die from them. First, as described in your scenario, is IDF. In this case where you have to literally be face hugging the enemy and heavily wounded to boot because of the heavy inefficiencies of LRMs in IDF mode.

The second is the DF scenario, in this case you would have to move in front of the LRMs after they had been shot. Because if you had been in the direct line of fire you would have broke the LOS of the LRM user and the IDF fire mode would have been engaged. In the case of DF team kill you literally walked in front of friendly fire after the shot had been fired and there is nothing the shooter could have done otherwise. If you are really close to the friendly LRM boat the chances will drop even more with IS LRMS doing no damage at <180m and Clan ones approaching zero at an exponential rate.

Now one would argue that you can indeed intentionally team kill another player with dumb fired LRMs. But you would need to be at least 180m away in most cases and the LRMs would always the max spread; so in most case this would take quite some time even if you had previously taken damage. You would also have to be standing still on the exact place the LRM boat was firing at.

As my third piece of evidence I would also like to include your own confession. In your response to my first post in which I accused you of face hugging and shot blocking you admitted to face hugging the target and (much to my amusement) described it so.

“Good deal of the time I am face hugging (which is something I hate very, very much) is because some desperate player about to die is a terribad and that's the best they can come up with.” ~Feral Clown

This confession says many things. In it you admit that face hugging is a bad tactic done by terribad players because it is the best they can come up with. I also like how it has a hint of self-loathing. I am happy to say in this matter we are in agreement and you will not need to argue the point further. You are terribad. I accept the logic, reason, and soundness of your self-analysis.

Now it seems that I have to defend myself against charges of condoning fratricide.

In your first response to my post you also accuse me of condoning fratricide. I asked you to point out the part where I did this. In response you cited the part of my post where I said:

"If it had been a non-locking weapon you would have not had an argument that would hold up on the forums because you would have still been a shot blocker." ~OmniFail

This citation in no way condones fratricide and offers no supporting evidence to the charge of me condoning fratricide.

Fratricide is only intentionally committed by the foolish and dishonorable. That being said, fratricide does happen, almost all players of advanced experience have been on both sides of this fence. That is to say, most of us have been both accidentally killed our bothers with friendly fire and have been killed by friendly fire. As unfortunate as this fact is, it is the nature of the beast.

Do not try to gaslight me bro.

If you are gonna come at me, Do it with logic, reason and empiricism.

Do not proceed as a “mindless child” having a bi-polar fit.

Do not make things up.

You will fail.

Edited by OmniFail, 03 August 2019 - 01:22 PM.

[Feral Clown]

OmniFail, on 03 August 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

LOL… What a clown.

So, I can tell that you are new here. So, I am going to let you in on a little secret, that me and the guys have here on the forums. When we “wanna circle around and play games with words” we signal each other with forums posts like “ANOTHER REASON NOT TO HOLD LOCKS.” In these threads we have intense philosophical conversations about the nature and ethics of LRM use.

But most of us are not mindless children when it comes to this legendary and nefarious argument. We have these arguments because we want to either discover the true nature of LRM’s or convince others of our position. There are players with opinions of all shades and degrees on the matter of LRMs. Some of them regardless of their opinions, have amazingly sound arguments based in logic and reason. They came to these opinions though long-time experience and analysis of these arguments. For these players I have to begrudgingly give respect.

You are not one of those players.

Now first your argument for another reason not to hold locks.

It goes like this…

I had a lock on a mech.
Because, I had a lock on a mech I was killed by friendly lurms.
Therefore, you should not lock on mechs, because the lurm boats on your team will kill you.

First, locks do not only benefit mechs with lock on weapons. They benefit all teammates. They provide valuable information on the enemy mech such as location, type, armament, and damage status. Many here would argue that this information is more valuable than any damage achieved though indirect fire (IDF). This is because a pack of angry, well informed, mechdads is better than any weapon in MWO.

Secondly, LRM team kills are extremely rare compared to all other weapons. These rare events do not justify not using locks because of the benefits that I described in my first point. The primary reason for the low team kill potential is that LRMs are usually fired with a lock on an enemy mech and cannot target friendlies. There are two ways you can die from them. First, as described in your scenario, is IDF. In this case where you have to literally be face hugging the enemy and heavily wounded to boot because of the heavy inefficiencies of LRMs in IDF mode.

The second is the DF scenario, in this case you would have to move in front of the LRMs after they had been shot. Because if you had been in the direct line of fire you would have broke the LOS of the LRM user and the IDF fire mode would have been engaged. In the case of DF team kill you literally walked in front of friendly fire after the shot had been fired and there is nothing the shooter could have done otherwise. If you are really close to the friendly LRM boat the chances will drop even more with IS LRMS doing no damage at <180m and Clan ones approaching zero at an exponential rate.

Now one would argue that you can indeed intentionally team kill another player with dumb fired LRMs. But you would need to be at least 180m away in most cases and the LRMs would always the max spread; so in most case this would take quite some time even if you had previously taken damage. You would also have to be standing still on the exact place the LRM boat was firing at.

As my third piece of evidence I would also like to include your own confession. In your response to my first post in which I accused you of face hugging and shot blocking you admitted to face hugging the target and (much to my amusement) described it so.

“Good deal of the time I am face hugging (which is something I hate very, very much) is because some desperate player about to die is a terribad and that's the best they can come up with.” ~Feral Clown

This confession says many things. In it you admit that face hugging is a bad tactic done by terribad players because it is the best they can come up with. I also like how it has a hint of self-loathing. I am happy to say in this matter we are in agreement and you will not need to argue the point further. You are terribad. I accept the logic, reason, and soundness of your self-analysis.

Now it seems that I have to defend myself against charges of condoning fratricide.

In your first response to my post you also accuse me of condoning fratricide. I asked you to point out the part where I did this. In response you cited the part of my post where I said:

"If it had been a non-locking weapon you would have not had an argument that would hold up on the forums because you would have still been a shot blocker." ~OmniFail

This citation in no way condones fratricide and offers no supporting evidence to the charge of me condoning fratricide.

Fratricide is only intentionally committed by the foolish and dishonorable. That being said, fratricide does happen, almost all players of advanced experience have been on both sides of this fence. That is to say, most of us have been both accidentally killed our bothers with friendly fire and have been killed by friendly fire. As unfortunate as this fact is, it is the nature of the beast.

Do not try to gaslight me bro.

If you are gonna come at me, Do it with logic, reason and empiricism.

Do not proceed as a “mindless child” having a bi-polar fit.

Do not make things up.

You will fail.

You're hostile and all that babble doesn't excuse the absolute moronic idea you have about face hugging being to blame.

Logic will not work with you when you can't own what you said and try and twist things around rather poorly.

And if I am a terribad, than we need to come up with another term to describe how awful you are.

You also can't speak to my fail as you so graciously live up to your name.

The hint is self loathing? No because you are not good and thinking or reason or have shown even a modicum of thinking ability, you misinterpreted and likely completely incapable of basic understanding. To clear it up for you I don't face hug, bad players (such as yourself) face hug me.

[Prototelis]

Kroete, on 03 August 2019 - 06:01 AM, said:

I understand that i can be killed if i stay between an enemy and my allys,
nothing more to know about this case.

lol. You're ******* clowning, right?

[The6thMessenger]

OmniFail, on 02 August 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

Face hugging the the enemy is not armor sharing; it is shot blocking.

You where intentionally blocking the shot because of your ego

You wanted the kill

You sir are a shot blocker.

Do not block the shot; guide the shot

Seriously?

Hows about fix your trajectory? Fix your strategy? Coordinate with the team? IDF is about team working together, not just one one leecher.

Don't get me wrong, LRM TK is a rare occurrence, but that is just pathetic entitlement -- get your own locks, jesus. I don't exactly hold that much disdain for basic oopsies like this one, but your response is even more so stupid.

At times you do get carried away, it's not like we just lurm from the rear and the safety of cover, we're actually putting ourselves out there to give you the lock you don't even deserve.

And guess what, face-hugging and leg humping is quite a legitimate -- albeit very very very annoying -- strategy. Because believe it or not, there are mechs that have poor handing so much so that they can literally not aim below with their torso to take care of the small ones.

OmniFail, on 02 August 2019 - 05:30 PM, said:

If it had been a non locking weapon you would have not had a argument that would hold up on the forums because you would have still been a shot blocker.

Believe it or not, he wouldn't need to -- the guys that were actually aiming actually has presence of mind to hit what they wanted to with astronomically smaller chance of hitting said piranha.

[Prototelis]

The thing is; vulcan on PIR...

The laser PIR is much faster and has a very short optimal. Its going to be all up on that vulcan no matter what. Red laser pir optimal is pretty much **** hugging and in a knife fight you want to take your shots in optimal otherwise you are wasting heat.


I have gotten enemy lrm boats to kill their assault teammates by getting into their legs. Its easy; its not like the indirect lrmer can see what is going on, especially when you aren't on their mini map