448 replies to this topic

[Feral Clown]

Prototelis, on 18 August 2019 - 06:48 PM, said:

You're asking why potatos potate; and that is the wrong approach.

Instead ask yourself what you are doing wrong and how you can improve individually.

And the clear answer to that is to put as many different weapons on a mech that I can so I can be effective at all ranges.

[Void Angel]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 07:27 PM, said:

And the clear answer to that is to put as many different weapons on a mech that I can so I can be effective at all ranges.

Why do you say things that you know will hurt me?

Also, some people in this thread have DPCCDD - DPS Class Cognitive Dysfunction Disease. It's a neurocognitive disability that renders sufferers unable to understand certain mathematical relationships between ingame concepts - such as "zero hit points always returns zero damage per second."

Both of the people I had to fact-check into the bleachers in this thread likely suffer from this terrible illness.

[Feral Clown]

Void Angel, on 18 August 2019 - 07:37 PM, said:

Why do you say things that you know will hurt me?

Also, some people in this thread have DPCCDD - DPS Class Cognitive Dysfunction Disease. It's a neurocognitive disability that renders sufferers unable to understand certain mathematical relationships between ingame concepts - such as "zero hit points always returns zero damage per second."

Both of the people I had to fact-check into the bleachers in this thread likely suffer from this terrible illness.

INC-5

You're welcome.

[Tiantara]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

INC-5

You're welcome.

- Is that really working? Laser ASM make mech hot or you need turn it on and off from time to time. Less ammo for both MG type. And LRM 15 which don't hit any target because of AMS. AMS everywhere. Yeah, any range but in all range so so...
Have incubus also - 2xHCML + 5xC-MG. Midrange\close range nice mech... besides fact I don't really like light at all.

[Void Angel]

My EYES!!!!!

[Bombast]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 07:43 PM, said:

INC-5

You're welcome.

Pfft. Only one sized LRM launcher.

[Tiantara]

Bombast, on 18 August 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

Pfft. Only one sized LRM launcher.

Spoiler

<img data-cke-saved-src="https://i.imgur.com/9SRm7KN.png" src="https://i.imgur.com/9SRm7KN.png">

- Ewww...
I prefer something like that on Atlas...

Spoiler

[Feral Clown]

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 07:50 PM, said:

- Is that really working? Laser ASM make mech hot or you need turn it on and off from time to time. Less ammo for both MG type. And LRM 15 which don't hit any target because of AMS. AMS everywhere. Yeah, any range but in all range so so...
Have incubus also - 2xHCML + 5xC-MG. Midrange\close range nice mech... besides fact I don't really like light at all.

Um..... I think you might have missed something.

[Tiantara]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 08:57 PM, said:

Um..... I think you might have missed something.

- Ah! I get it... light mech live less than spend its ammo!

[Feral Clown]

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 09:12 PM, said:

- Ah! I get it... light mech live less than spend its ammo!

No...it is a very bad build with a bunch of nonsense put on it as a joke. Look at the armor values even.

[Tiantara]

Feral Clown, on 18 August 2019 - 09:59 PM, said:

No...it is a very bad build with a bunch of nonsense put on it as a joke. Look at the armor values even.

- Ah... I thought that an example of multirange build. And it feels strange.

[Void Angel]

It's a parody of multirange builds. Because "multirange" nearly always means "I hit like a Medium at all ranges." It's useful to have a longer-ranged weapon sometimes (like a Large laser on a medium laser boat,) but builds that succeed focus on one thing they want to do.

[Feral Clown]

Void Angel, on 18 August 2019 - 10:30 PM, said:

It's a parody of multirange builds. Because "multirange" nearly always means "I hit like a Medium at all ranges." It's useful to have a longer-ranged weapon sometimes (like a Large laser on a medium laser boat,) but builds that succeed focus on one thing they want to do.

Funny enough was just in a match with dude and he did well, was running a strong build (left side pulsebacker) that is actually one of my personal favourites. There's certainly potential there.

[Horseman]

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 03:48 AM, said:

So, if JJ can be changed to more ammo and weapon, or heatsinks - they will be changed. I use JJ only in mech where you can't rip them off and they fixed.

Some mechs need mobility more than firepower, and if a mech supports JJs it's prudent to keep 1-2 of them

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- Take for example dragon DRG-5N after all test and experiments - only working build is - 2x erML + 2x Rotary AC2. Everything else work bad on it.

That build doesn't belong on that chassis.
Not only for a heavy mech is the firepower rather underwhelming, you have 40% UAC jam chance reduction and 10% ballistic cooldown quirks you're not utilizing at all (as well as 15% energy cooldown and 15% laser duration you've barely done anything at all with).
I'd advise trying that build on a lighter chassis, like a Blackjack.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 04:49 AM, said:

- Hate UAC jamming. You have target, have ammo, and can't do a shot. Not a weapon on which I can rely. Better Rotary, you can keep it on edge and do rapid fire on will.

Wrong. Rotaries require you to facetank damage while you're firing. That makes them more suited to assault mechs which have the armor to spare.
Other than IS UAC2, UACs are not meant for sustained fire. Their purpose is to provide you with higher burst damage: Shoot a salvo or two, GTFO into cover, repeat.

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- Aha... hi is big. XL on it really straight road to death, so STD my choice. But sometimes it plays really good.

If you're fixing yourself to STD engines then you're wasting tonnage compared to LFEs - VERY few IS mechs have an advantage running a STD over LFE. With some, it's XL or bust.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

- ~_~ yeah... in statistic it counts and make my numbers worse. But there nothing I can do.

You can do better. The moment you tell yourself there's nothing you can do, you're conditioning yourself to accept failure.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 02:03 AM, said:

- I said about damage only. If I get defeat as whole team, match score go down, but not damage.

Wrong. The only score penalties that exist are for team kills and team damage. The score awarded for losing a match is still positive, and as already explained - most of a player's match score comes from dealing damage regardless of win or loss.

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 10:21 PM, said:

- Ah... I thought that an example of multirange build. And it feels strange.

Rule of thumb: Builds that focus on one range bracket can focus on doing that well. Builds that split their firepower across multiple ranges and purposes end up sub-par at any range.

Void Angel, on 18 August 2019 - 10:30 PM, said:

It's a parody of multirange builds. Because "multirange" nearly always means "I hit like a Medium at all ranges."

That's a strange way of spelling "Light".

Edited by Horseman, 18 August 2019 - 10:57 PM.

[Tiantara]

Horseman, on 18 August 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

Some mechs need mobility more than firepower, and if a mech supports JJs it's prudent to keep 1-2 of them

That build doesn't belong on that chassis.
Not only for a heavy mech is the firepower rather underwhelming, you have 40% UAC jam chance reduction and 10% ballistic cooldown quirks you're not utilizing at all (as well as 15% energy cooldown and 15% laser duration you've barely done anything at all with).

I'd advise trying that build on a lighter chassis, like a Blackjack.

Wrong. Rotaries require you to facetank damage while you're firing. That makes them more suited to assault mechs which have the armor to spare.
Other than IS UAC2, UACs are not meant for sustained fire. Their purpose is to provide you with higher burst damage: Shoot a salvo or two, GTFO into cover, repeat.

- Thanks, but... The problem with Dragon is - that 40% UAC jam not working as intended. Quirk are good, but weapon stuck after 1 short shot and that longs enough to die under fire. Laser hardpoints also placed on arm and not high plased also. Missile slot just laughable. Why I put rotary? Because of corner using. I can hide nearly whole mech and use only arm with RAC to bring damage to target, give weapon some cool off and repeat. If quirks really works as intended - its ok. But that happens not always. As for Blcakjack - there not enough tonnage for ammo and RAC. Yes, RAC requires facetank... but also you can flank and deliver damage to legs, arms or back before mech turns and see you. As flanker that mech do best. At least I get higher damage than with UAC.

Horseman, on 18 August 2019 - 10:53 PM, said:

If you're fixing yourself to STD engines then you're wasting tonnage compared to LFEs - VERY few IS mechs have an advantage running a STD over LFE. With some, it's XL or bust.
You can do better. The moment you tell yourself there's nothing you can do, you're conditioning yourself to accept failure.
Wrong. The only score penalties that exist are for team kills and team damage. The score awarded for losing a match is still positive, and as already explained - most of a player's match score comes from dealing damage regardless of win or loss.
Rule of thumb: Builds that focus on one range bracket can focus on doing that well. Builds that split their firepower across multiple ranges and purposes end up sub-par at any range.

- STD great for mech which can provide fire when being a "stick", or have not enough room for sidetorsos engine parts. XL on IS mech - instant death. LTE sometimes - really great loss of speed, so they go on light, medium or some heavy mech which loose all weapon with torsos as well.
Uhu-h... some mech just bad for some ranges at all. I know...

Edited by Tiantara, 19 August 2019 - 01:04 AM.

[Horseman]

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 11:28 PM, said:

- Thanks, but... The problem with Dragon is - that 40% UAC jam not working as intended.

It is working as intended. Statistical outliers can and do happen - you don't remember the times when firing several dozen double-taps one after another resulted in no jams whatsoever, just the ones where the jam chance worked against you.

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Quirk are good, but weapon stuck after 1 short shot

Which is why I said that except for UAC2 the UACs are meant for burst damage. Further, if you use 3xUAC2 then the jam duration is short enough that you almost always have some of your UACs firing.

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and that longs enough to die under fire.

Retreating from a disadvantageous situation is not a sign of weakness.
You should always be close to cover, so that you can withdraw and reposition. If you are not, then that's a problem with how you're playing the game - one you should be looking to address.

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Laser hardpoints also placed on arm and not high plased also.

High enough. You need to expose that height to bring your ballistic to bear anyway.

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Missile slot just laughable.

On that we agree.

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Why I put rotary? Because of corner using. I can hide nearly whole mech and use only arm with RAC to bring damage to target, give weapon some cool off and repeat.

Which is almost the same thing you'd be doing with 3xUAC2 build. EXCEPT with the Dragon's quirks your 3xUAC2 deliver higher average DPS (and that's factoring in the jam chances - ie until you start jamming your DPS is actually quite higher) than the 2xRAC2s, with no spin-up time and can deliver a 12-point burst before the RAC2s have spun up.

Overall, with 3xUAC2 you deliver more DPS than with the 2xRACs and can either retreat sooner, having taken less return damage for the amount you've dealt, or remain exposed just as long but having done more damage in that time. Either way, you kill your targets faster and are more useful for your team.

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As for Blcakjack - there not enough tonnage for ammo and RAC.

Oh ye of little faith...
https://mech.nav-alp.../#1a45c40b_BJ-1
https://mech.nav-alp.../#5bd1610b_BJ-1
For a Blackjack this is fine - you don't need to expose more than your mech's shoulders to fire.

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STD great for mech which can provide fire when being a "stick", or have not enough room for sidetorsos engine parts.

The only mechs that don't have room for LFEs are energy boats which need all possible space for heat sinks and can't afford the heat penalty for ST loss.

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XL on IS mech - instant death.

Play carefully and it won't happen.

Edited by Horseman, 19 August 2019 - 05:01 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Tiantara, on 18 August 2019 - 11:28 PM, said:

As for Blcakjack - there not enough tonnage for ammo and RAC. Yes, RAC requires facetank... but also you can flank and deliver damage to legs, arms or back before mech turns and see you. As flanker that mech do best. At least I get higher damage than with UAC.

The blackjack is subpar in a flanker role because it has the frontal profile of johnny frigging bravo. It has symetrical high arm mounts which makes it good for ridge peeking. Use it in that role.

You're also not supposed to tank damage in a blackjack. It's a medium which means it has tonnage problems. You stick a standard engine in there, you're either packing too small an engine to keep up or have too little tonnage left over for firepower.

[Bombast]

I miss the Blackjack mega-quirks... 50% AC/2 cooldown was so fun. It was like firing a RAC without the jam bar.

But apparently it was overpowered so they got rid of it.

[Prototelis]

Wil McCullough, on 19 August 2019 - 02:26 AM, said:

You're also not supposed to tank damage in a blackjack. It's a medium which means it has tonnage problems. You stick a standard engine in there, you're either packing too small an engine to keep up or have too little tonnage left over for firepower.

I mostly agree; but some of the BJ variants have some really good armor quirks. The SRM jack got moved up a div in Solaris because of them.

[Alienized]

Y E O N N E, on 18 August 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

Just want to point out that armor sharing is about reducing the value of the opponent's damage by spreading it not only across all of the components on a 'Mech, but also across all of the 'Mechs on a team, allowing individual 'Mechs to be able to deploy their firepower for longer. With respect to Assaults, In practice their heavy armor is there because it is slow to expose and slow to retreat and it needs it all for itself so it can deploy the firepower which often is not actually all that impressive compared to a well-built Heavy in the same tech base and has an advantage mostly in cooling and sometimes in range. It's up to the rest of the team to present and draw fire so the Assault's armor lasts long enough for it do deal that damage.

Assaults that are used to soak for the team are the exception rather than the rule and are limited to a very, very small group; basically the Atlas back before it got agility nerfed, maybe the Annihilator. A standard MO is actually to send your Lights and Mediums out to draw fire, followed by the heavies, with the Assaults bringing up the rear to just shred an enemy that has now expended some of its heat cap on lower priority targets and has to spend precious time re-aligning its firepower onto these Assaults.

thats one part for sure, but how many times do you see assaults having bad movement or they get rekt because of a build that is too slow/cant fire back properly?
also, i see far more assaults just standing back not sharing anything or never pushing/utilizing their actual potential.
mobile assaults (charger, victor, highlander if used with JJ's, Zeus) are more like heavies after all but i personally wish for the Zeus to get some decent armor quirks too instead of the crappy low struc ones.

i personally always play at the frontline and engage actively than sitting in the back with anything i play.
mediums and heavies should take inital aggro as they can evade better, then keep on supporting the assaults.
i would like my lights more upfront scouting properly, then come back to engage the combat from another angle.
thats my ideal movement :S



i can see why, for example awesomes, sit more in the back than others. that really is a second line mech after all BUT you can always trade and share armor from range, now with that LRM's are more effective than ever on direct sight there is no excuse to stay hidden. hell you can even use laser/ppc + lrm combinations quite well now.
but i want to mention the amount of ECM/AMS around.


so my conclusion pretty much is, every mech fighting unsupported, dying quick is a wasted mech.
no matter the tonnage.
if someone made an error and engaged too agressively, his team should at least engage in a flank rather than sit in cover