38 replies to this topic

[Foxwalker]

Just a question. Shouldn't fully articulated arms with all the joints be able to fully extend them?
There should not be any real reason any mech should not be able to get nearly shoulder high aim the same as Rifleman, Jaeger or BlackJack?

From what I remember, the difference was that those mechs could aim higher or flip their arms to the rear.

There should be a extend arms straight out key!

[FRAGTAST1C]

[Prototelis]

Because it would require effort.

Edit: Honestly though, one of the things I do like about mechwarrior game is how inarticulate the mechs are.

Edited by Prototelis, 11 August 2019 - 09:11 PM.

[Stridercal]

Yeah, will never happen in a game. People want more mechs, not more detailed mechs.

[Funky Bacon]

As much as it would help with convergence and preventing weapons from hitting small rocks instead of what you aim at it would also look incredibly silly with mech running around with arms extended forward like that.

Edited by Funky Bacon, 14 August 2019 - 01:44 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

FRAGTAST1C, on 11 August 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

Haha!! It should be done to where at least one arm can be raised at a time with a cooldown period. For many humanoid mechs, which IS has more of than Clans, it would a boost, some more than others.

For the other MW games, terrain did not play as BIG a role as with MWO. For MW4 it was 3rd person and JJ more than anything else.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 August 2019 - 02:07 PM.

[Foxwalker]

Funky Bacon, on 12 August 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

As much as it help with convergence and preventing weapons from hitting small rocks instead of what you aim at it would also look incredibly silly with mech running around with arms extended forward like that.

I think silly looking left the building a long time ago with a lot of these designs.

The big issue for me is that so many mechs, especially Assaults and Heavies main weapons are low slung making them need to expose too much armor than mechs designed with higher mounted weapons. For example, it is one reason the Kodiak is so much better than the Atlas or King Crab. (In my opinion).

Others stated in a recent post about the Incubus that the INC-4 was a top tier light simply because it has those 6 high torso mounted Energy slots.

Obviously, it is all a moot point this late in the game.

[Bowelhacker]

I was thinking about this very thing just the other day.

Which is probably a sad reflection on how much a wasteland my life is.

[Sergeant Destroy]

I´d totally not go full {Godwin's Law} salute with that......

[Foxwalker]

Bowelhacker, on 12 August 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

I was thinking about this very thing just the other day.

Which is probably a sad reflection on how much a wasteland my life is.

I don't know. A friend gave me the MechWarrior/BattleTech box set like 1990/91 and it changed my life. I loved playing it so much, I went into Computers and have been working as an Engineer since then.

These games, have a rich history, and help with hand/eye coordination and work your brain a little with learning strategy. A lot of the guys here are really nice and I have made some friends.

[Anjian]

Foxwalker, on 11 August 2019 - 08:24 PM, said:

Just a question. Shouldn't fully articulated arms with all the joints be able to fully extend them?
There should not be any real reason any mech should not be able to get nearly shoulder high aim the same as Rifleman, Jaeger or BlackJack?

From what I remember, the difference was that those mechs could aim higher or flip their arms to the rear.

There should be a extend arms straight out key!

I will give you examples from another game that was newly released.

1. Running mode. Arms flayed back to the rear, forearms and weapons pointing downward. Naruto Running style.

2. Approaching target. Arms raised to nearly firing position (mid chest level). Arms start to row or sway back and forth with attitude.

3. Firing target. Arms raised to upper chest or shoulder position. Arms stretch forward just before they fire, which after that, the arms would recoil backward after the blast, and then slide forward again to fire the next round.

4. Reloading. Arm raised to shoulder level, forearm 90 degree from the shoulder and execute an elbow "pump" (closed fist, up and down like reloading a shotgun). There is a bit of defiant attitude with the elbow pump.

5. Falling from a height. Arm raised upward and falling behind as the mech falls for a landing. This is for mechs that jump.

Feet stance, try to avoid the mummy zombie Frankenstein walk. While we want the physical weight of a stompy robot felt, we also need to keep in mind the Rule of Cool, Bad Assery and Absolute Awesomeness with the way they stand and move.

Far too many games don't much attention and detail to robot kinematics. Don't go for realism is all you do is make your mech walk like a zombie on too much alcohol.

Edited by Anjian, 13 August 2019 - 02:22 AM.

[Foxwalker]

Anjian, on 13 August 2019 - 02:05 AM, said:

I will give you examples from another game that was newly released.

1. Running mode. Arms flayed back to the rear, forearms and weapons pointing downward. Naruto Running style.

2. Approaching target. Arms raised to nearly firing position (mid chest level). Arms start to row or sway back and forth with attitude.

3. Firing target. Arms raised to upper chest or shoulder position. Arms stretch forward just before they fire, which after that, the arms would recoil backward after the blast, and then slide forward again to fire the next round.

4. Reloading. Arm raised to shoulder level, forearm 90 degree from the shoulder and execute an elbow "pump" (closed fist, up and down like reloading a shotgun). There is a bit of defiant attitude with the elbow pump.

5. Falling from a height. Arm raised upward and falling behind as the mech falls for a landing. This is for mechs that jump.

Feet stance, try to avoid the mummy zombie Frankenstein walk. While we want the physical weight of a stompy robot felt, we also need to keep in mind the Rule of Cool, Bad Assery and Absolute Awesomeness with the way they stand and move.

Far too many games don't much attention and detail to robot kinematics. Don't go for realism is all you do is make your mech walk like a zombie on too much alcohol.

Not really looking for more realism in animation. The real issue is that in the initial game the purpose of having the joints was considered an advantage. In this game, Mechs with high torso and arm mounted weapons are king cause the shoulder and other joints articulation does not give the advantage it should have. In fact, mostly they just take up slot spaces that could go to bigger weapons or more heat sinks.

[MeiSooHaityu]

HBS's BattleTech does give us an idea of how a mech might move (especially the arms) when it comes to their mobility.






I know for the ease of play in a First Person style game (and one without melee), it is easier to keep things a bit "rigid", however hopefully one day a mech's movement can be represented more fluid in a game like MechWarrior.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 13 August 2019 - 11:07 AM.

[evilauthor]

Foxwalker, on 13 August 2019 - 08:47 AM, said:

Not really looking for more realism in animation. The real issue is that in the initial game the purpose of having the joints was considered an advantage. In this game, Mechs with high torso and arm mounted weapons are king cause the shoulder and other joints articulation does not give the advantage it should have. In fact, mostly they just take up slot spaces that could go to bigger weapons or more heat sinks.

Having lower arm actuators does allow for more responsiveness when aiming at fast moving targets, but only if you have the arms unlocked. Ie, arm mounted weapons change point of aim faster than torso weapons do. That's very useful for hitting fast moving targets, but only if you have good aim.

But I guess these benefits aren't a big enough advantage to compensate for the relatively low mounting points compared to mechs that last lower arm actuators.

If PGI really wanted to implement arm raising, they could just tie it to arm lock. When arms are unlocked, weapons are in their normal position. When arms are locked, the arms raise up to bring weapons to shoulder height. For those of us who run around with arms unlocked by default, we hold Shift to bring the arms up. For those who lock arms by default, you hold shift to unlock.

Maybe throw in a small movement penalty for mechs that run around with locked arms or increased wobbliness when moving to represent the mech moving in a less than optimal way due to having arms locked all the time and not compensating for leg movement.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Im see only a Way for 1-2 Poses for Arms with Standard Animations (ok, a Lot work for each mech with each weaponmodel)

full animated Arms with Free Movement ...no way today
we will you controll a full animated arm (have you a Cyber Suit ?) and whats a Lot problems with Hitzones, Clipping bugs, Collisionsmodel and Animations it will bring ??? oh...nooooooo... my arms now stuck in my Cockpit and blocked my view or the Big Gauss im not become over my Chest or stuck in my other arm

and the Performance to calculated all parts (and Hitzones/Targetareas) from each mech in multiple Arm poses its more as a Heavy Part....

its like good looking Procedual Terrain with real Citys, Rivers, Bridges and Streets a Project for Future Games in 10 or 15 Years

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 15 August 2019 - 02:25 AM.

[Anjian]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 August 2019 - 11:06 AM, said:

HBS's BattleTech does give us an idea of how a mech might move (especially the arms) when it comes to their mobility.






I know for the ease of play in a First Person style game (and one without melee), it is easier to keep things a bit "rigid", however hopefully one day a mech's movement can be represented more fluid in a game like MechWarrior.

That looks like a mech hitting another mech in the sensitive lower parts. That game also has mechs kicking another mechs in the crotch, or head butting into it.


I don't mind the two arms raised position. This game does it all the time.




It happens a lot in John Wu directed movies.




In fact, it can look cool. The mech might need to bend backwards a little.

[Koniving]

Foxwalker, on 11 August 2019 - 08:24 PM, said:

Just a question. Shouldn't fully articulated arms with all the joints be able to fully extend them?
There should not be any real reason any mech should not be able to get nearly shoulder high aim the same as Rifleman, Jaeger or BlackJack?

From what I remember, the difference was that those mechs could aim higher or flip their arms to the rear.

There should be a extend arms straight out key!

I worked out a concept for it a couple years ago, even exactly how to control it, and how to have the extended arms work with aiming extreme left/right and how 'mixed' actuator arrangements would work.

Typical mech position.



Press Q, the mech head (if moveable; mind you this was for a Battletech simulator) and both arms aim left, as far as possible and as applicable. This assumes full actuators.

If the opposing arm cannot reach the intended targeted area, the weapons on that arm simply disable to prevent wasted heat. The torso weapons however would not lock out, as being able to use both the torso and arm crosshairs independently to attack multiple targets at once is a valuable, if niche, skill.


Then here's Press E, but to save time this one demonstrates the opposing arm is only upper actuator as PGI has defined them.

Both head and applicable arms aim to the right. The opposing arm in this case would be arm-locked to the torso crosshair, so as to bolster the firepower potential of the torso weapons should the pilot prefer to use them. It would be ideal if the player modified the firing groups accordingly.

Press both Q and E together, and both arms do this. (Watch the Atlas)

Simple, straight forward design.
For MWO, remove head movement of the mech and just put in head movement of the pilot instead.
Example of how it might look.

Just add in being able to see the arms raised up to shoulder height.

Edited by Koniving, 16 August 2019 - 10:49 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

like the system in MW4 im thinking ...ok ...other side ...MW4 has IK system , Mektek gave a simple Melee Attack , rearview , good looking animations , thats all MWO lightyears away from and newer comes while no Cryengine Programmers with long experience since Years on Board from the crew ...only now UE4 Programmers
,

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 18 August 2019 - 11:23 AM.

[Prototelis]

Mechwarrior 4's multiplayer isn't server authoritative, and it had its own issues and ultimately did not play nearly as well as MWO.

Rearview camera isn't going to help someone keep a light mech out of their back arc, that's a pointless feature.

The games lacks features because they don't want to pay to develop them; it has nothing to do with how much "experience" people have with one of the most well documented game engines around.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Hi Prototelis

Quote

oh yes ...the first Years with the Serverlags and Hitproblems was the hell

Quote

The games lacks features because they don't want to pay to develop them; it has nothing to do with how much "experience" people have with one of the most well documented game engines around.

no ..teh Game in maintance Mode since 2015 ,as the Guys thats personal modified the Cryengine leaves after the Transverse /Reddit Disaster ,and many goes to other Companys, and PGI search for Years in his Career Portal to new member with Cryengine experience, we seeing the Status and experience since Years , best example ..IK Comes back ...oh bad, no ...we not can make IK , thats a Basic Feature thats all other Games have since 20 Years..CW , o we overworked it ...now , thats you can wait 3 Hours without a Match ,in all the Failures ...Rescaling...Weaponbalance ...Long Tom ...the last maps ,thats looks like the first Steps of a mapmaker and lightyears away from the old maplayouts (in Quality , not Gamedesign).

Only Events with many goodies, Big Gifts and a Great support Helps MWO and PGI



Now is here End of Line ,and MW5 the last Hope/Straw...and bad problem for mW5 , nothing PR to the Product over Years , only in the last year a little.

Quote

Rearview camera isn't going to help someone keep a light mech out of their back arc, that's a pointless feature.

when you Move in Team and Fireline ,a Rearview Cam make sense and in mW4 you have very different Radar Modes (360° radar/active-passive Radar mode/No Target Dots over the Enemys)

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 18 August 2019 - 06:25 PM.